New Testament View of the Old Testament

[RND]

Something you may find worth looking at: 'One Law' in Context

I had just been surfing the web before coming here and found it.

~Sparrow

Thanks for the link! I disagree with it mind you and could pick it apart if need be, but I won't. Suffice to say I believe it isn't well thought out.

Let me give but one example:

In discussing Exodus 12:43-49 the writers of the blog article linked say:

When the last verse is read alone (verse 49), it may give the impression that all of the Torah's commands apply equally for both the ger and for the native. It is tempting to remove that verse from its context and read "one law" as if it refers to the entire scope of the Torah. However, in the context of the Passover sacrifice we can see that it is not meant in this way. Exodus 12 was not speaking about all of the laws of the Torah. In fact, at the time that this commandment was given, Israel had not even left Egypt yet, nor had God given the laws at Mount Sinai, nor had Moses descended the mountain with the tablets.

This verse simply explains that if the ger (non-Israelite) desired to participate in making a Passover lamb sacrifice, he must follow the same procedure as the native born Israelite. In the Hebrew Bible, the word torah has multiple meanings. In certain cases, the word is used to refer collectively to all of the laws in the Pentateuch. In other cases, it can denote only a subsection of laws or a single law.

Here's the verses:

And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No foreigner or hired servant may eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. If a stranger [ger, גֵּר] shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law [torah achat, תּוֹרָ׆×Âַחַת] for the native and for the stranger [ger, גֵּר] who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:43-49; emphasis added)

The problem that the writers fail to address, or simply just ignore is this. When a stranger saw the Passover ceremony take place and they wanted to partake they had to be circumcised. In fact all his males had to be. In essence this was a specific part of the "naturalization" process that a foreigner that wanted to become a US citizen might go through. However, instead of requiring circumcision we simply say, "Raise your right hand and repeat after me..."

Once a stranger and all his males were circumcised they became officially "Israelites" and all the laws of the land they were required to observe and do. That's why the Torah says, "...he shall be as a native of the land..." Once circumcised and then they could now partake in not only the passover but all the feasts and festivals of Israel and in fact this was now a must. This concept is so mind numbingly simple I would think it would be obvious. But at first it wasn't so obvious to me and thus I learned this position from a Messianic Jew that occasionally attends our sabbath services!

 

[wavy]

Once a stranger and all his males were circumcised they became officially "Israelites" and all the laws of the land they were required to observe and do.

And where does the Pentateuch say this?


Finis,
Eric

 

[Godfrey]

I didn't know they were

Can you point me to something specific?

Gladly.

Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

There are many more that require a stranger sojourning in Israel to obey the laws, statues and commandments of the Lord.

Ah, thanks.

But these verses apply to a stranger sojourning in Israel. The old covenant settled Israel in a specific geographic area, and they were to clear out all the existing inhabitants. Any strangers, then, had to be immigrants. I don't see that these verses say any more than that the immigrants were to abide by the law of the land, something that we expect worldwide. There is no hint that Gentiles living outside the promised land should abide by the law for any reason.

 

[RND]

Ah, thanks.

Your welcome.

But these verses apply to a stranger sojourning in Israel.

That's right! Much like a college student from England is required to live by and obey ALL the law of the country and state where he might be in school.

Such a student, or foreign worker, etc., would be required to live by the laws of this land, not his home country.

The old covenant settled Israel in a specific geographic area, and they were to clear out all the existing inhabitants. Any strangers, then, had to be immigrants.

That's right! Yet there were immigrants that left Egypt with Israel.

I don't see that these verses say any more than that the immigrants were to abide by the law of the land, something that we expect worldwide. There is no hint that Gentiles living outside the promised land should abide by the law for any reason.

Are you suggesting then that God has two sets of standards, one of Israelites and one for everyone else? Wouldn't that make God a respecter of persons? Also, the term "stranger" is in many cases direct reference to the term gentiles - which simply means nations; they are essentially the same thing. And example would be that as a Californian traveling to Mexico I'm subject to the laws of Mexico but I don't stop being a Californian.

 

[Drew]

So is that an "I dont know" in response to my question?

Is this a serious question? You surely know that I have adressed your question in my post! BL, please do not play games. Any one can see that my post was not an "I don't know" in response to your question. I do not mind spending time on this issue, but I need to know that the people I am debating with are serious. Certain others are now on "ignore" because I am convinced they are trolls.

Rom 2:14-22 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: ....

Wow! Here we see the word law eight times and Paul references some of the Ten Commandments in verses 21 and 22. So please, enlighten us as to what "law" Paul was referring to if it was not the Law of God.

I have already shown in my post that the "law" that the Gentiles follow is not the Law of Moses.

A full-blown explanation of what this "law" is will require some time.

But I will say this for the present: Paul sees that Christian faith - the heart belief that Jesus is Lord and been raised from the dead is true renewed covenant keeping of the Torah.

Paul's concept of the "law" is rich and subtle.

But parts of it are easy - the Law of Moses is no longer in force - the Scriptures are clear about this. To deny it is to say that Paul was mistaken.

 

[Drew]

I am done with this thread. I am convinced that my posts are not being read with real attention. That's fine - no one is obligated to read my posts. I certainly have ignored the posts of those who I do not think are serious about the discussion.

But I am not going to invest my time when people ask me questions which I have already answered.

 

[RND]

Once a stranger and all his males were circumcised they became officially "Israelites" and all the laws of the land they were required to observe and do.

And where does the Pentateuch say this?

Exodus 12:43-49

 

[RND]

I have already shown in my post that the "law" that the Gentiles follow is not the Law of Moses.

And clearly, very clearly it was explained and shown to you that they do in fact follow the Ten Commandments. You know Drew, your insistence that the TC and the law of Moshe are the same thing is what has caused your consternation in this thread.

A full-blown explanation of what this "law" is will require some time.

We've been waiting.

But I will say this for the present: Paul sees that Christian faith - the heart belief that Jesus is Lord and been raised from the dead is true renewed covenant keeping of the Torah.

Sure, lots of people believe this! Does that belief then make void adhering to the precepts of the Decalogue?

Paul's concept of the "law" is rich and subtle.

It's very direct in my mind.

But parts of it are easy - the Law of Moses is no longer in force - the Scriptures are clear about this. To deny it is to say that Paul was mistaken.

You keep making this statement but you've done nothing, absolutely nothing to support such a position that the TC are no longer a factor in life.

 

[RND]

I am done with this thread. I am convinced that my posts are not being read with real attention.

Your problem Drew is that we are paying attention! If we weren't no one would say anything to you.

That's fine - no one is obligated to read my posts. I certainly have ignored the posts of those who I do not think are serious about the discussion.

This is a very serious discussion. Attempting to say that the TC are no longer applicable to anyone is extremely serious.

But I am not going to invest my time when people ask me questions which I have already answered.

I don't know that you've answered any questions as much as you've simply parroted the same points.

 

[wavy]

Once a stranger and all his males were circumcised they became officially "Israelites" and all the laws of the land they were required to observe and do.

And where does the Pentateuch say this?

Exodus 12:43-49

Unfortunately it doesn't say anything about becoming an Israelite and obeying all the Mosaic laws. All it says is that a foreigner is to be circumcised like an Israelite to participate in the Passover.

So this obviously isn't the correct passage and you either must be referring to something else or don't know what you're talking about. I'm inclined towards the latter.

Finis,
Eric

 

[RND]

Unfortunately it doesn't say anything about becoming an Israelite and obeying all the Mosaic laws. All it says is that a foreigner is to be circumcised like an Israelite to participate in the Passover.

Which is the equivalent of becoming an Israelite. By becoming circumcised and taking the passover one becomes as "he shall be as one that is born in the land."

So this obviously isn't the correct passage and you either must be referring to something else or don't know what you're talking about. I'm inclined towards the latter.

Your opinion belongs to you, that is true. It reflects your understanding of scripture.

 

[wavy]

Which is the equivalent of becoming an Israelite.

Which the text doesn't say.

By becoming circumcised and taking the passover one becomes as "he shall be as one that is born in the land."

No, by the foreigner's becoming 'as a native' he's qualified to eat the Passover like a native. Again, the text doesn't say he becomes an Israelite and adopts all the laws, and wishing it to be there doesn't make it appear.

Finis,
Eric

 

[RND]

Which the text doesn't say.

"And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you." By circumcising their flesh the gentiles was, by faith, joining with God and Abraham.

Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed. Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Remember spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

No, by the foreigner's becoming 'as a native' he's qualified to eat the Passover like a native.

And obey the law of the land, just like a native.

Again, the text doesn't say he becomes an Israelite and adopts all the laws, and wishing it to be there doesn't make it appear.

One can only see want they want to see. If their ears are closed and their eyes are blind they cannot hear and they cannot see. The example given in Exodus 12 is the exact same formula for a Christian accepting Christ, the passover lamb.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

To accept the Passover Lamb (Jesus) one must first have the foreskin of their heart removed. To accept the Passover lamb of Exodus 12 one was required to become circumcised.

 

[wavy]

In other words, it's not in the text. Just as I said.


Finis,
Eric

 

[RND]

In other words, it's not in the text. Just as I said.

It is in the text. You unfortunately are unable to grasp the concept because you don't live in the spirit. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

 

[Godfrey]

Are you suggesting then that God has two sets of standards, one of Israelites and one for everyone else? Wouldn't that make God a respecter of persons?

I've often heard folk say God is no respecter of persons, but they need to add the rest of the sentence but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. In other words, God accepts Gentiles as well as Jews.

I will not say that God has two sets of standards, but I will say that God did set different standards for the Israelites from those of the surrounding nations – as part of the old covenant.

 

[Drew]

I will not say that God has two sets of standards, but I will say that God did set different standards for the Israelites from those of the surrounding nations – as part of the old covenant.

I entirely agree. This is clear from this text from Leviticus:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

I politely suggest that those who argue that God always "has the same rules for everybody" are often doing the following:

1. They appeal to the widely held intuition that God could not possibly "discriminate".
2. They ignore the evolving story of redemption and think in terms of "timeless truths".

Now point number 1 is appealing, but it is clearly not Biblical - the text from Leviticus 20 has shown this.

Try as I might. I can see no way to read the Leviticus text as suggesting anything other than that God has given "the law" to one people and not another.

 

[RND]

In other words, God accepts Gentiles as well as Jews.

As longs as one is willing to obey God right?

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I will not say that God has two sets of standards, but I will say that God did set different standards for the Israelites from those of the surrounding nations – as part of the old covenant.

Of course He did. Now, what was the responsibility of the Israelites?

 

[Godfrey]

I will not say that God has two sets of standards, but I will say that God did set different standards for the Israelites from those of the surrounding nations – as part of the old covenant.

Of course He did. Now, what was the responsibility of the Israelites?

To keep their side of the covenant.

 

[RND]

I will not say that God has two sets of standards, but I will say that God did set different standards for the Israelites from those of the surrounding nations – as part of the old covenant.

Of course He did. Now, what was the responsibility of the Israelites?

To keep their side of the covenant.

Much more than that. They were to explain and teach all the laws, statutes and ordinances to the nations. They were to be an example for the nations:

Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people. Deu 4:7 For what nation [is there so] great, who [hath] God [so] nigh unto them, as the LORD our God [is] in all [things that] we call upon him [for]? Deu 4:8 And what nation [is there so] great, that hath statutes and judgments [so] righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?