No conditions to be reconciled !

[JohnDB]

That's not what John 1:12 says.

OK,
When looking at a Scripture I look at the whole context including Who, When, Why, and what occasion is this being said in the manner it's being said in.

A member of the Sanhedrin council comes to Jesus during the "socialization time" which is what nighttime was for. And engages in conversations.

Everyone is especially concerned with tehora. (Ceremonial cleanliness)

Jesus is relating more truth than Nicodemus can really get his head around. (Jesus is giving him the fire hose to drink from)

Nicodemus is talking about a whole life "do over" as to the magnitude of Jesus' statements...along with a remembrance of Jesus' miracles.

This, in John, is part of the proof of the inclusion of the Gentiles into Judaism... Which was only allowed by adopting Gentiles into a Jewish family.
But now, as evidenced by the "tongues" or languages on Pentecost the fulfilment of the real promise to Abraham is going to be fulfilled. "Father of many nations".

In a caste based faith based culture this is a complete undoing of the whole Apple Cart. It had to be discussed with " Israel's teacher ".

This is why John 3:16 says what it says...

John 1:12 is all about limits. Receiving and believing.

 

[beloved57]

I most certainly believe in salvation by grace, but NOT your salvation by irresistible grace. Why? The Bible tells me so!:yes This is what the Bible teaches about salvation by grace:


What did Paul & Silas say to the Philippian jailer? It's a command, '[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved'. So Paul and Silas confirm that there will be no salvation unless 'you believe' [aorist imperative]. It does not command, 'God will believe in the Lord Jesus for you and you will be saved'. It does not say, 'You will be irresistibly drawn by grace to Christ for salvation and be unconditionally elected'.

So I believe in salvation by grace where the person believes. Acts 16:31 (NIV) does not teach irresistible grace.

Oz

All the scripture you quoted I have no problem with. Yet you can not explain why some as enemies and unbelievers are reconciled to God by Christ death, and others are not, and are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36.

 

[beloved57]

OK,
When looking at a Scripture I look at the whole context including Who, When, Why, and what occasion is this being said in the manner it's being said in.

A member of the Sanhedrin council comes to Jesus during the "socialization time" which is what nighttime was for. And engages in conversations.

Everyone is especially concerned with tehora. (Ceremonial cleanliness)

Jesus is relating more truth than Nicodemus can really get his head around. (Jesus is giving him the fire hose to drink from)

Nicodemus is talking about a whole life "do over" as to the magnitude of Jesus' statements...along with a remembrance of Jesus' miracles.

This, in John, is part of the proof of the inclusion of the Gentiles into Judaism... Which was only allowed by adopting Gentiles into a Jewish family.
But now, as evidenced by the "tongues" or languages on Pentecost the fulfilment of the real promise to Abraham is going to be fulfilled. "Father of many nations".

In a caste based faith based culture this is a complete undoing of the whole Apple Cart. It had to be discussed with " Israel's teacher ".

It is ok to look at the whole context, but that gives you no right to misquote a verse to say what it doesn't specifically say.

 

[JohnDB]

It is ok to look at the whole context, but that gives you no right to misquote a verse to say what it doesn't specifically say.

Sorry I was on John 3:16 instead of 1:12.

John 1:12 in my opinion is more a "if/then" statement.
John has this huge introduction into his Gospel because he is setting up his Gospel to refute many theologies that had been argued over and over again.

Those persons who believe (in the diety and identity) and receive (greet and welcome ALL that Jesus stood for) can become the "bene Elohim" or "sons of God"

 

[JohnDB]

Sorry I was on John 3:16 instead of 1:12.

John 1:12 in my opinion is more a "if/then" statement.
John has this huge introduction into his Gospel because he is setting up his Gospel to refute many theologies that had been argued over and over again.

Those persons who believe (in the diety and identity) and receive (greet and welcome ALL that Jesus stood for) can become the "bene Elohim" or "sons of God"

Now this is with 1John 2:19 in mind...
John explained himself more here as to what believing is.

So...to me, how do you get a person to the point of rock solid faith?..then they will never be lost.

 

[Jim Parker]

The contradiction is still there.

The contradiction is only "there" in your mind.
The contradiction is "there" only in that you imagine God as loving SOME of the world in direct contradiction to the explicit statement of scripture that God loves the world with no exception stated. (John 3:16)
That is an imaginary god not the God not revealed in the Bible.

Paul said that the purpose of the "five-fold-ministry" was to "equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 4:12-13 RSV) And in Christ is the fullness of God. (Col 1:19)
Jesus also commanded us to, "love your enemies." (Mat 5:44, Luke 6:27, 35)
Jesus' commands never require us to act in a manner contrary to the nature of God.
So it would be inconsistent for Jesus to tell us to love our enemies while He loved only SOME of His enemies.

Ro 5:18 (NASB) So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Note that Jesus' act of righteousness, justification of life was to ALL men, not to SOME men.

iakov the fool

 

[JohnDB]

The contradiction is only "there" in your mind.
The contradiction is "there" only in that you imagine God as loving SOME of the world in direct contradiction to the explicit statement of scripture that God loves the world with no exception stated. (John 3:16)
That is an imaginary god not the God not revealed in the Bible.

Paul said that the purpose of the "five-fold-ministry" was to "equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 4:12-13 RSV) And in Christ is the fullness of God. (Col 1:19)
Jesus also commanded us to, "love your enemies." (Mat 5:44, Luke 6:27, 35)
Jesus' commands never require us to act in a manner contrary to the nature of God.
So it would be inconsistent for Jesus to tell us to love our enemies while He loved only SOME of His enemies.

Ro 5:18 (NASB) So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Note that Jesus' act of righteousness, justification of life was to ALL men, not to SOME men.

iakov the fool

Now if you are speaking to the terms of "calling" and "election" there is a world of difference between the two. They are not the same.

ALL who hear the truth and are given it in truth are called.

Election/chosen is another thing. Not all that can successfully wield political or pursuasive power are elected/chosen.

Such is the case between Adoniram Judson and George Lyle. Judson is the "named and heralded" first missionary of America... But Geoge Lyle actually was...and the proof was in effectiveness of ministry. Judson was almost a complete failure while George founded hundreds of churches.
Both were called but George was chosen.

 

[reba]

[edited] Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies Rom 5:10 and that didn't apply to all enemies without exception since some are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation while being enemies John 3:18,36

When was any one not an enemie of Jesus? Do we not all sin and come short of His glory? The difference is simple some reject Him others dont ...

We all read Scripture, and about everything else, with preconceived ideals.

 

[beloved57]

The contradiction is only "there" in your mind.
The contradiction is "there" only in that you imagine God as loving SOME of the world in direct contradiction to the explicit statement of scripture that God loves the world with no exception stated. (John 3:16)
That is an imaginary god not the God not revealed in the Bible.

Paul said that the purpose of the "five-fold-ministry" was to "equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 4:12-13 RSV) And in Christ is the fullness of God. (Col 1:19)
Jesus also commanded us to, "love your enemies." (Mat 5:44, Luke 6:27, 35)
Jesus' commands never require us to act in a manner contrary to the nature of God.
So it would be inconsistent for Jesus to tell us to love our enemies while He loved only SOME of His enemies.

Ro 5:18 (NASB) So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Note that Jesus' act of righteousness, justification of life was to ALL men, not to SOME men.

iakov the fool

There's no contradiction in my mind. The fact remains that those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 but others while they are enemies are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18, 36. The difference is the death of Christ for some and not for others.

 

[OzSpen]

The contradiction is still there. Those enemies Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies, which is not true for all, since some who are enemies are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36.

Seems as though you stumble over the how of soteriology. Jesus's death can be the propitiation for all people without all people being saved, if your view of salvation includes a response by human beings to the grace of God in Christ.

If you want to exclude human response to the offer of salvation, then the verses I provided in post #37 have no meaning.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

All the scripture you quoted I have no problem with. Yet you can not explain why some as enemies and unbelievers are reconciled to God by Christ death, and others are not, and are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36.

Do you want me to conclude that the God of Calvinism has the answer to why some receive Christ and others reject, because of unconditional election and irresistible grace - married to limited atonement?

There are simple steps to the solution to why some accept and others reject salvation:

1. Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9 NIV).
   
2. 'Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ' (Rom 10:17 NIV). There is no salvation through exposure to natural revelation (e.g. Rom 1:18ff), but a person must be exposed to the Gospel message.
   
3. 'You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life' (John 5:39-40 ESV). Individual choice is involved. People refuse to come - for various reasons.
   
4. 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day' (John 6:44 NIV). The Father draws, he does not drag people into the kingdom through unconditional election or irresistible grace.
5. We know from Titus 2:11 (ESV) that 'the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. This grace of God appeared with the passion-resurrection of Jesus, making salvation available to all. Yes, ALL!
   
6. The fact is that people who hear the Gospel, are drawn by the Father, but they have a choice to make - accept or reject the Gospel. The human will has been freed to enable human beings to make a decision for or against Christ.
7. There is a godly mystery (1 Cor 2:7 NIV) involved in how God, by his Spirit, takes the message of salvation, exposes human beings to it. They are drawn (not forced) by the Father, and they have the choice to reject or 'believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household' (Acts 16:31 NIV).
   
8. In this process, Satan's influence cannot be under-estimated in influencing people to reject salvation. We are reminded in 1 Peter 5:8 (NIV), 'Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour'. Satan the deceiver and devourer of all things good, including the Gospel, should not be ignored.

Leave out the free will choice - as Calvinists do - and it excludes a core element in the reception of the Gospel by people. Salvation is all of God. He has provided it through Christ's sacrifice but in God's grace He has made salvation available to people to receive or reject - with eternal consequences.

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

Now this actually has been discussed for thousands of years already.
The Jews discussed this to no end in bethmidrash.
Their preface to this argument was always "Who Sinned"
And it goes all the way back to the fall of mankind.
But they wondered why God chose some people to be born Jewish and blessed and others Gentile and cursed.(God gives all life) Why were some people born Jewish but with some kind of disfigurement or disability. Since they knew that God was always good...it must be sin that caused all of this.
So...now comes their premise.
In the days of the Old Covenant God blessed people who followed the Law with health and material possessions.
So illnesses and poverty came as a result of sin.
So....who exactly does the sinning that results in blindness, poverty, and the like?
Was it corporate sin (sin of a nation or group) or was it individual sin that was so egregious that God lifted his hand of blessing. Everyone sins...no one is without. There is corporate sin and individual sin that must be the cause of everything because God is always good...
.
And they debated this heavily...as seen in John's Gospel...chapter 9.
The story about "The man born blind" isn't just another miracle of Jesus told in this Gospel...it was listed so that we could understand about Soteriology and Election and Calling.
John 9:3 (NIV)
Thats the answer right there.

Now to coordinate the parable of the soils...
We already have the potter. Its in the Old Testament. Now pottery making was never going to make anyone rich. In order to make any money you had to make a lot of pots. Some were heavy and low and others thin walled and tall...like a wine carafe. It was all about time...and the quality/property of the clay.
some clay lent itself to being able to go thin...some wasnt as good or strong...so it became chamber pots or storage jars...The taller and thinner the jar the more money you could get for it as a potter...aka more noble.

All of us as people have abilities...some more than others as the "clay we were made from" allows.
And where we might strive to do better...and we should. There are always going to be limits to what we can do...
and broken pots were useful too...they either cut and carved beautiful designs in freshly made pots before they were fired or...they were used to fill potholes in the street.
So where I personally may be the allegorical "Chamber pot" in life at least I can hold some oil...it surely beats being broken and holding no oil at all.

 

[OzSpen]

When was any one not an enemie of Jesus? Do we not all sin and come short of His glory? The difference is simple some reject Him others dont ...

We all read Scripture, and about everything else, with preconceived ideals.

reba,

The issue we are discussing is why do some accept and some reject Christ when all of us are enemies of God?

Do you have thoughts on why there is this division of acceptance and rejection of salvation? What motivates people to go either way?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Now this actually has been discussed for thousands of years already.
The Jews discussed this to no end in bethmidrash.
Their preface to this argument was always "Who Sinned"
And it goes all the way back to the fall of mankind.
But they wondered why God chose some people to be born Jewish and blessed and others Gentile and cursed.(God gives all life) Why were some people born Jewish but with some kind of disfigurement or disability. Since they knew that God was always good...it must be sin that caused all of this.
So...now comes their premise.
In the days of the Old Covenant God blessed people who followed the Law with health and material possessions.
So illnesses and poverty came as a result of sin.
So....who exactly does the sinning that results in blindness, poverty, and the like?
Was it corporate sin (sin of a nation or group) or was it individual sin that was so egregious that God lifted his hand of blessing. Everyone sins...no one is without. There is corporate sin and individual sin that must be the cause of everything because God is always good...
.
And they debated this heavily...as seen in John's Gospel...chapter 9.
The story about "The man born blind" isn't just another miracle of Jesus told in this Gospel...it was listed so that we could understand about Soteriology and Election and Calling.
John 9:3 (NIV)
Thats the answer right there.

Now to coordinate the parable of the soils...
We already have the potter. Its in the Old Testament. Now pottery making was never going to make anyone rich. In order to make any money you had to make a lot of pots. Some were heavy and low and others thin walled and tall...like a wine carafe. It was all about time...and the quality/property of the clay.
some clay lent itself to being able to go thin...some wasnt as good or strong...so it became chamber pots or storage jars...The taller and thinner the jar the more money you could get for it as a potter...aka more noble.

All of us as people have abilities...some more than others as the "clay we were made from" allows.
And where we might strive to do better...and we should. There are always going to be limits to what we can do...
and broken pots were useful too...they either cut and carved beautiful designs in freshly made pots before they were fired or...they were used to fill potholes in the street.
So where I personally may be the allegorical "Chamber pot" in life at least I can hold some oil...it surely beats being broken and holding no oil at all.

John,

You are zooming past the discussion we are having. Why do some people accept the Gospel when they hear it and others reject the Gospel proclaimed?

What are your down-to-earth biblical views on the reasons for this?

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

John,

You are zooming past the discussion we are having. Why do some people accept the Gospel when they hear it and others reject the Gospel proclaimed?

What are your down-to-earth biblical views on the reasons for this?

Oz

The reasons are in the post above that you quoted...its kinda convoluted but...
All people are created to give glory to God in some fashion or another. Some for noble and some for ignoble reasons. Some are there as broken vessels to cut (which hurts) the noble vessels to make them more beautiful. Some are there as nothing more than pot hole fill material in the road of life.
It all depends upon the clay from which they were made from.

The road to salvation is narrow and few find it.

This is a very sober reality. The vast majority of people won't be saved. God is perfectly efficient but...He really isn't into numbers the way that we are. God is omnipotent...meaning all Power is God's...no one has any that God didn't create and it really is on loan as God's power is never really expended...or endless.

But God has expended vast resources to gain the very few...and prizes us highly as what the Song of Solomon suggests. Knowing the outcome and causing it are two vastly different things. As a veteran potter...God knows precisely how good a vessel each bit of clay will make...or whether it is going to be broken (the vast majority) or become a beautiful work of His Artistry.

The who, when, where, and at what point someone will believe...I have absolutely no clue.
I simply believe everyone has a job...and I know mine. Someone else...i can guess but I don't really have the ability to say for .

Edited to add:
The short answer is that they never were capable of having faith.
Kinda like how some never understand the theological principles you promote. You can show them all kinds of absolute facts and proofs but they never are persuaded to change. In the same fashion, some will never believe the Gospel.

 

[reba]

reba,

The issue we are discussing is why do some accept and some reject Christ when all of us are enemies of God?

Do you have thoughts on why there is this division of acceptance and rejection of salvation? What motivates people to go either way?

Oz

this is where i walk the fence... One time i say God does all the 'drawing' then another scripture like 'whosoever will ' pops in my head.
I believe there is a reason God's reason... why the scriptures do not say something as clear as .... I God choose who goes to heaven and who goes to hell ... First 40 + years of my life i believed we make the choice... for about 5 years did a 180 and God does it all.. been on the fence fora few years now...

 

[JohnDB]

this is where i walk the fence... One time i say God does all the 'drawing' then another scripture like 'whosoever will ' pops in my head.
I believe there is a reason God's reason... why the scriptures do not say something as clear as .... I God choose who goes to heaven and who goes to hell ... First 40 + years of my life i believed we make the choice... for about 5 years did a 180 and God does it all.. been on the fence fora few years now...

Completely understandable position.
Sat in this seat for years.

But with time...and a more clear understanding of Who God is...his attributes of Sovereignty, Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and etc...you can't think in human terms.
God is so far above us as a computer programmer is above a line of code in a program...

Kinda hard to fathom.

But the truth is God doesn't need us...He only wants us.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I posted this on the other thread about the blood of Christ.

John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

As I stated in the other post, there are those people who do not want the light. We all have sinned and fall short of the glory Romans 3:23

Jesus died for the world, in the sense that God is gathering a harvest of those who want the light.
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.

 

[Malachi]

God chooses us. We don't choose God.

Scripture says otherwise. God would not say "come" unless we were expected to choose to come:
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. (Isa 55:1-3).

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17).

 

[Cygnus]

So to you, He's the God of partiality, favouritism. That's not the nature of God. He has stated, 'So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him' (Acts 10:34-35 ESV).

When God picks and chooses among sinners like your Calvinism states, it contradicts the nature of God.

Oz

Your so-called free-will is a contradiction of the bible.
Are you saved because you are smarter than the other?
Ar you saved because you wee born here or there?
Are you saved because you heard so and so preach?

....You're free-will confirms the above. Your free-will tells us we select Jesus based upon life's happenstance. In other words the cards you are dealt in life are used to make your decision for or not for Christ. That is not biblical.