Jim Parker
Member
It does not say that it does not apply to all mankind.
There is nothing in the passage that suggests that Jesus atonement was limited in any manner.
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There is nothing in the passage that suggests that Jesus atonement was limited in any manner.
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beloved57
Guest
How could it apply to all mankind when many in mankind are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36 !
I have demonstrated it several times with Scripture but you haven't demonstrated an openness to receive those Scriptures.
ALL are under God's wrath, not MANY, but Jesus has appeased God's wrath for ALL (1 John 2:2 ESV).
That's not what Rom 5:10 (NIV) says. Here is what it states: 'For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!'
Cygnus
Member
One has to ask...who is the anyone?
..Anyone of the Jews?
Anyone of the Gentile?
Anyone of the...elect?
You then asked "Why would He make salvation available to all if 'God owes no person salvation'?"
You're saying God owes mankind salvation? Why?
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.
Jim Parker
Member
That's very much like Bill Clinton's "It depends on what "is" means."
That straw won't keep you afloat.
Cygnus
Member
All I have to ask is who was Paul talking to and under what context?
Jim Parker
Member
Slick Willie would be proud of you.
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beloved57
Guest
No you haven't demonstrated it. The Truth still remains that some enemies are reconciled to God Rom 5:10 and some are not Jn 3:18,36.
B
beloved57
Guest
I know what it says. Paul says that believers were/had been reconciled to God while they were enemies. However that does not apply to all, because some while enemies are under Gods condemnation and wrath Jn 3:18,36!
Jim Parker
Member
So, I'll correct my statement. The scriptures which demonstrate the fallacy of your position have been repeated posted for you to peruse. The choice for you to actually consider them is out of the posters hands. That is your responsibility.
Nothing can be demonstrated to you that you don't want to know.
Cygnus
Member
I would venture to say hermeneutics isn't in your biblical vocabulary.
You seem to force the bible to say what you think it should say. Sometimes you get it right...but not always.
Jim Parker
Member
oops
Jim Parker
Member
True. I actually know what "is" means.
It doesn't say some people who were enemies of God were condemned and some were not condemned because of limited atonement.
John 3:18 (ESV) states, 'Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God'. This does not teach that some enemies of God are under condemnation and wrath because they were forced to be that way because of God's predestination to damnation.
John 3:36 (ESV) states: 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him'. Nothing is said here about how they came to believe or disbelieve. It tells what happens to those who believe and those who don't believe.
A repetitious quoting John 3:18, 36 throughout this thread, I do not find convincing.
Oz
Repetition of the same as, same as verses has no more impact.
This is a standard Calvinistic reply to the content of 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV), 'Not wanting anyone to perish'. ANY means ANY not ANY Jews, ANY Gentiles, ANY of the elect. It means ANY people.
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV) states, 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some [Gk. tines] understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone [Gk. tinas] to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The Greek tells me that 'some' (tines) understand slowness BUT God does not want anyone (tinas) to perish. As A T Robertson, an eminent Greek scholar of the 20th century, put it,
Oz
Works consulted
Robertson, A T 1933. Word Pictures in the New Testament: The General Epistles and The Revelation of John, vol 6. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press. Also available HERE.