No other gods.....

[Fedusenko]

Yes, and that is a great example of symbolism in the bible, but they also had a practical usage too. Joseph and Mary left everything they knew and owned and started a new life. Those valuable gifts were what they used to start that new life.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

You know very well as an ex-germanic pagan that Easter Egg hunting is an evolution of revering Eostre. The very act of dying eggs is a watered down version of a grotesque ritual involving infanticide. Is this how you remember your savior's resurrection? It was hardly secular then and isn't today just because people are ignorant of what they do.

And you did not answer the questions.

Lol, what infanticide? Evidence, including a connection with Easter Eggs that doesn't require a vast leap of assumption?

And besides, hunting Easter Eggs was in no way a part of Eostre rituals.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Yes, and that is a great example of symbolism in the bible, but they also had a practical usage too. Joseph and Mary left everything they knew and owned and started a new life. Those valuable gifts were what they used to start that new life.

That's an assumption, cite biblical evidence.

 

[Fedusenko]

That's an assumption, cite biblical evidence.

Well, you won't find it, but as many ideas that are not vital to worshiping God you will find commentary by folks who have sat on the matter for some time. Here are a few...

www.Jesuswalk.com

Though the Magi's quest had brought Herod's scrutiny upon the child, these gifts were probably sold gradually to provide for the Holy Family during three years of exile in Egypt where they fled to escape Herod's wrath.

An oddity on the net... <-- obviously biased, but worth a visit just for a chuckle.

What would be a more fitting gift for the Savior than gold symbolic that He is King, Frankincense representing pure worship, and Myrrh to acknowledge His sacrifice? These costly gifts to the Holy Family provided the means to travel to Egypt and now from that land, we send them to you.

bible.org

The visit of the magi had a very practical benefit, as well. It was necessary for Mary and Joseph to escape to Egypt with the child, to avoid Herod’s scheme to kill the king. I believe that the gifts which were given by the magi provided the material means to travel to Egypt and to stay there until it was safe to return. In addition, the arrival of the magi in Jerusalem and their inquiry as to the place where the child could be found served to notify Jerusalem of the birth of Christ. How marvelous are God’s ways!

Just google it if you want more thoughts on the matter. It isn't a new or far fetched theory by any means, but you are right, there is nothing in the bible that outright states this.

 

[Mike]

Wow. This is so convenient! I still had this verse on my clipboard from another thread, and I didn't have to go looking for it to copy it again. This is what they call a two-for-one!

Matthew 23
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."

I'm not calling anyone in this thread a Pharisee or hypocrite, because I can't make that call from what I know. But, I cry "foul" to the condemnation of certain things that aren't clearly forbidden in scripture. If the Lord returned tonight, I would rather be caught with Christmas tree in my house (even in March) and a heart set upon the Lord than a follower of the law who shakes his finger at other believers. I would rather be found with Easter eggs strewn throughout my lawn and a heart that depends on Him to sustain me than no eggs and a heart bent on guilt.

Regardless of how I choose to celebrate His Birth and His Resurrection, I am secure in my salvation because I know He searches within for those who love Him. No, I'm not calling anyone a Pharisee, but I do think some people could stand to shine His Light more rather than spend so much time condemning.

 

[handy]

Wow. This is so convenient! I still had this verse on my clipboard from another thread, and I didn't have to go looking for it to copy it again. This is what they call a two-for-one!

Matthew 23
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."

I'm not calling anyone in this thread a Pharisee or hypocrite, because I can't make that call from what I know. But, I cry "foul" to the condemnation of certain things that aren't clearly forbidden in scripture. If the Lord returned tonight, I would rather be caught with Christmas tree in my house (even in March) and a heart set upon the Lord than a follower of the law who shakes his finger at other believers. I would rather be found with Easter eggs strewn throughout my lawn and a heart that depends on Him to sustain me than no eggs and a heart bent on guilt.

Regardless of how I choose to celebrate His Birth and His Resurrection, I am secure in my salvation because I know He searches within for those who love Him. No, I'm not calling anyone a Pharisee, but I do think some people could stand to shine His Light more rather than spend so much time condemning.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Well, you won't find it, but as many ideas that are not vital to worshiping God you will find commentary by folks who have sat on the matter for some time. Here are a few...

www.Jesuswalk.com


An oddity on the net... <-- obviously biased, but worth a visit just for a chuckle.


bible.org


Just google it if you want more thoughts on the matter. It isn't a new or far fetched theory by any means, but you are right, there is nothing in the bible that outright states this.

All suppositions. Even if those suppositions are correct it doesn't negate the fact that those gifts weren't given for the purpose for which you claimed, the magi had no idea they would have to flee to Egypt. They were simply gifts, nothing more.

 

[Fedusenko]

All suppositions. Even if those suppositions are correct it doesn't negate the fact that those gifts weren't given for the purpose for which you claimed, the magi had no idea they would have to flee to Egypt. They were simply gifts, nothing more.

I am not here to convince you and it isn't an issue of the soul. It is a widely accepted understanding. You can choose to follow suit or not. This is not an issue to me.

I reread your comment and understand it better. I never claimed that the Magi gave it for the purpose of escape. I simply stated that it could be used for escape and that was a practical application to use it as such. Please read my comments properly and I will try to read yours the same.

Let go back to the topic that the celebration of non-biblical holidays is not good practice.

 

[John 8:32]

Doesn't matter what day you keep, or whether it is easter or Passover, Christmas or not.

Mat 7:21 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Mark 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.'

 

[Fedusenko]

That is a good verse, John 8:32. Same for you, Mike. Those need to be read and considered especially by guys like us so that we don't fall into the same pit as the Pharisees.

I believe I can speak for nmwings concerning this, but we are not condemning. We are not saying you will lose salvation, grace, love or that you are a horrible person. That would be condemning and judging. That is not our place, but just as Jerimiah pleaded that Jeruselem stop their abominations, we are too. It isn't our opinion that these are abominations, but God's. He said to no even learn their practices.

I am not even saying that you must follow OT feasts, just don't follow pagan festivals. I would rather have missed out on Easter than be caught teaching the traditions of man. Easter is exactly that. Man Made, not God appointed. I know that Easter doesn't mean you like Eostre or Ishtar, but that is not what matters. What does God think? God turns those away who do not follow his instructions and welcomes those who do. Cain and Able is an easy example.

Simple study reveals the origin of Easter. Grab an encyclopedia. I am not saying to do Passover, just don't do Eostre.

 

[Fedusenko]

Mark 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.'

Commandments of men = Fat Tuesday, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, Lent, Easter. There are many more.

 

[nmwings]

I'm not calling anyone in this thread a Pharisee or hypocrite, because I can't make that call from what I know. But, I cry "foul" to the condemnation of certain things that aren't clearly forbidden in scripture.

Mike and Handy…. the Messiah was in opposition to the Pharisees because they were NOT keeping the commandments of God. They had added to the original instruction (given at Sinai) and put up so many “fences†that indeed, it WAS impossible to keep them all! But the Lord’s commandments are “easy and light.†He came teaching Moses and the Prophets, and made them even GREATER than they were before.

There are 2 sets of “laws†being described by the Messiah and His disciples: the law of men and the law of God. One law is nailed to tree. The other remains true forever. But because the vast majority of Christians do not even know what the Law of God even says, they are blinded and thus they refuse to obey, making them just as hypocritical as those Pharisees in Mat 23. And again I repeat my original statement: the church is no different and no better than Israel in this regard.

But once the iron bars of tradition are ripped away from our eyes, it is THEN that we are truly free. Only then will one be able to see that these traditions ARE clearly forbidden in Scripture, including the Christmas tree referred to in Jer 10:1-5.

If the Lord returned tonight, I would rather be caught with a Christmas tree in my house (even in March) and a heart set upon the Lord than a follower of the law who shakes his finger at other believers. I would rather be found with Easter eggs strewn throughout my lawn and a heart that depends on Him to sustain me than no eggs and a heart bent on guilt.

The only “shaking fingers†in this thread are pointed at those of us who stand for being obedient to the King.

I obey the Lord because I love Him. I love Him because I believe His Word. And I believe His Word because He is faithful to His 8 covenants made with my fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And in one of those covenants, He promised He would pay the penalty for us (death being the curse of the Law) if we broke our part of the agreement. He proved His faithful Word and rendered Himself as our Substitute on the cross. But the traditions of men have twisted this into a grotesque claim that somehow “disobedience under grace is righteousness†and “obedience mocks the sufferings of Messiah.â€

No, I'm not calling anyone a Pharisee, but I do think some people could stand to shine His Light more rather than spend so much time condemning.

The light we shine exposes the wickedness of idolatry, regardless of whose name is tacked on to the false god. If you feel condemnation, it is coming from your own heart, not our words.

I am not even saying that you must follow OT feasts, just don't follow pagan festivals.

Then I will say it. They are more than just Feasts: they are “appointments,†in which God will do certain things at certain times, while we do certain things at certain times. In other words, they are "rehearsals." Passover, First Fruits and Pentecost were all appointments that God made with man back at Sinai, and He kept His Word to the very day (however, there remains unfulfilled elements of Passover… there will be another Exodus, and it will be even GREATER than the one from Egypt.) And there are also 3 more festivals (or appointments) that occur in the fall: The Day of Judgment, the Day of Atonement and the Wedding Feast. To disregard the festivals (especially in these Last Days) is folly, to say the least.

 

[Fedusenko]

To be clear, I am not saying don't do the feasts. This thread is targeted at pagan ceremonies which we should not do. I agree with you nmwings, I just don't want to bite more than I can chew in one thread. But this isn't my thread and I don't want to control it.

 

[handy]

nmwings, I have to say I find it a bit disengeneous of you to say this:
The only “shaking fingers†in this thread are pointed at those of us who stand for being obedient to the King.

after having said this:
Except you bow down to that tree in order to GET the gifts.

You say:
But because the vast majority of Christians do not even know what the Law of God even says

The law of God is this:

You shall love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

All else passed away with the ending of the Old Covenant.

As Jesus Himself said, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

I know many read this verse as if it says: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

What they forget is that all was accomplished with the Law when Christ died. As any covenant ends upon the death of one of the parties, the Old Covenant died on the cross with Christ.

Should anyone want to observe some day over another, or view every day as pretty much the same is between them and the Holy Spirit.

But, the church, very early on, gained victory over certain pagan deities and turned what was once pagan days of worship into times of remembrances of what Christ has done for us. Each culture has added various celebratory practices to this (although we worship only Christ and certainly do not "bow down" to Christmas trees).

Now, some choose not to partake in these remembrances and that's OK.

Others do... and that's OK too. No one Christian need set themselves up as a judge of another in the matter of days, weeks, Sabbaths. We all have the Spirit within us.

 

[Fedusenko]

And besides, hunting Easter Eggs was in no way a part of Eostre rituals.

"In northern Europe, Eostre, the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon goddess of dawn, evolved from Astarte in Babylon and from Ishtar from Assyria. Eggs, dyed blood-red and rolled in the newly sown soil at spring equinox, ensured fertility of the fields. The Moon Hare, sacred animal totem of Eostre, laid more colored eggs for children to find. From the name, Eostre, Astarte, and Ishtar, we derive the scientific terminology for the female hormone and reproduction cycle: estrogen and estrus. Easter also derives from Eostre." (D. Henes, Celestially Auspicious Occasions: Seasons, Cycles and Celebrations, New York: Perigee Book)

She is a witch. Everything I have read about her reports that she is respected and apparently well renowned. I looked for disparaging remarks about her, but couldn't find any. Does this satisfy your particular quarry?

 

[ChristianNationalist]

"In northern Europe, Eostre, the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon goddess of dawn, evolved from Astarte in Babylon and from Ishtar from Assyria. Eggs, dyed blood-red and rolled in the newly sown soil at spring equinox, ensured fertility of the fields. The Moon Hare, sacred animal totem of Eostre, laid more colored eggs for children to find. From the name, Eostre, Astarte, and Ishtar, we derive the scientific terminology for the female hormone and reproduction cycle: estrogen and estrus. Easter also derives from Eostre." (D. Henes, Celestially Auspicious Occasions: Seasons, Cycles and Celebrations, New York: Perigee Book)

She is a witch. Everything I have read about her reports that she is respected and apparently well renowned. I looked for disparaging remarks about her, but couldn't find any. Does this satisfy your particular quarry?

Donna Henes is a New Age hack, like most Wiccans she pretty much just makes things up. This habit is the main point of contention between Germanic neopagans (Odinists and Asatru) and Wiccans, whereas Odinists and Asatru are expected to be scholarly and research their Eddas and other historical sources Wiccans just kinda make it up as they go. Painted eggs for the Spring Equinox actually originally comes from Zoroastrianism and is also a part of Slavic folk traditions (Slavs did not worship Eostre). Wiccans such as Henes simply tie things together if they "feel right" regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

 

[handy]

Donna Henes is a New Age hack, like most Wiccans she pretty much just makes things up. This habit is the main point of contention between Germanic neopagans (Odinists and Asatru) and Wiccans, whereas Odinists and Asatru are expected to be scholarly and research their Eddas and other historical sources Wiccans just kinda make it up as they go. Painted eggs for the Spring Equinox actually originally comes from Zoroastrianism and is also a part of Slavic folk traditions (Slavs did not worship Eostre). Wiccans such as Henes simply tie things together if they "feel right" regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

Very true... I've been amazed at what both Wiccans and Druids will co-opt and claim is theirs by ancient history.

Never discount the fact that pretty much everyone in the world will do whatever they can to discount Christianity....

...Christianity is nothing more than the ancient religion worshipping Mithras.

...The Old Testament is nothing more than myths that were borrowed from the Mesopotamia and Egyptians...

...Jesus' virgin birth, death and resurrection is simply a retelling of the Osiris cult of Egypt...

Anyone will try to discount Christianity by superimposing old myths and legends on the truth of Scripture... And, even plenty of Christians will jump on the bandwagon if it becomes a way to discount anything that happened at Nicaea or via the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Mike]

But once the iron bars of tradition are ripped away from our eyes, it is THEN that we are truly free. Only then will one be able to see that these traditions ARE clearly forbidden in Scripture, including the Christmas tree referred to in Jer 10:1-5.

Col 2

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!� 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


Legalism is such a viper in the Church. The proud will try in vain to reach for that which Christ has done for them. The appearance of wisdom, indeed. :gah

 

[Fedusenko]

Mike, this isn't legalism. I know that Easter celebrations have nothing to do with gaining my salvation. Salvation is dependent on if I accept Christ and follow him. The Messiah died for my sins and only that reason alone is how I have any chance to eventually meet my maker. What I fear is if my actions cause be to be rejected by Christ. I can only serve one master. I can't be a slave to two otherwise He will spit me out and call me lukewarm.

If I was legalistic I would tell you not to work on Sabbaths to make ends meet for your family, to wash your hands 3 times before eating, to not eat tasty bacon! I don't say that. What I do is warn people to run from worshiping God in the ways he said not to. I say that sin is a choice that is up to me to commit. I say that once you are saved you can become wicked again and thrown into the fire with the thistles. Is that legalism?

 

[nmwings]

nmwings, I have to say I find it a bit disengeneous of you to say this:
The only “shaking fingers†in this thread are pointed at those of us who stand for being obedient to the King.
after having said this:
Except you bow down to that tree in order to GET the gifts.

Disingenuous = “lacking in candor; giving a false appearance of simple franknessâ€
candor = “unreserved, honest, or sincere expression; forthrightnessâ€

I did not give a false appearance of being frank, nor did I lack candor in my response as I was unreserved, honest, sincere and forthright. Therefore, I was not disingenuous.

You say: But because the vast majority of Christians do not even know what the Law of God even says
The law of God is this:

You shall love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. All else passed away with the ending of the Old Covenant.

Lev 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD. The Law of Moses tells us HOW to love God and HOW to love our neighbors.

As Jesus Himself said, "For truly I say to you,until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall passf rom the Law until all is accomplished." I know many read this verse as if it says: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."What they forget is that all was accomplished with the Law when Christ died. As any covenant ends upon the death of one of the parties, the Old Covenant died on the cross with Christ.

If you really believe "any covenant dies upon the death of one of the parties," than the promise of a Redeemer DIED WITH THE DEATH OF ABRAHAM.

The RE-newed Covenant, is the writing of the Law of God upon our HEARTS instead of on stone, as the Lord explains in Jeremiahin 31:31- "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD,"when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,"declares the LORD. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name): "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the Lord: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the Lord. A doctrine that teaches the Law of God was abolished is in direct conflict with what God spoke.

And this is what the Messiah says about the "least" and the"greatest" in the Kingdom. ....Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great inthe kingdom of heaven. In other words, if you disobey you will be the least, but if you obey, you'll be the greatest.

But, the church, very early on, gained victory over certain pagan deities and turned what was once pagan days of worship into times of remembrances of what Christ has done for us.

That was NOT victory, it was assimilation: “the act of absorbing into cultural tradition of a population or group.â€

Each culture has added various celebratory practices to this (although we worship only Christ and certainly do not "bow down"to Christmas trees).

When I used to observe Christmas, I remember us having to kneel down on our knees at the foot of that tree to get our presents. And I remember adoring (worshipping) the beautiful lights on it, too. Even though I thought I was worshipping the Messiah, our bodies prostrated and worshipped that tree.

We all have the Spirit within us.

We are warned against blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The BIBLICAL definition of blasphemy is taking a holy thing and rendering it as unholy, or taking an unholy thing and rendering it as holy. Without the teaching of Moses on how to distinguish between holy and profane, or clean from unclean, how will you be able to distinguish between a foul (unclean) spirit and a holy (clean) spirit?

Legalism is such a viper in the Church. The proud will try in vain to reach for that which Christ has done for them. The appearance of wisdom, indeed.

Judaism has 1,653 commandments regarding the Sabbath ALONE. The Lord only requires 5. The legalism of which you speak are the commandments and traditions of men, and not the commandments of the Lord, which are "easy and light."