Growth No Shame!

[netchaplain]

I think Hebrews 10:26 is not valid here.

So, to use Hebrews 10:26 to say intentional sin is not forgiven is not what it means.

The mention of "judgment and fiery indignation" (v 27) is a telltale of one that applies only to one who has never been regenerated. If we continue in the sin we are in when we saw and heard the Gospel of salvation, there is no place of Christ's sacrifice in him.

Hebrews 10:26-31 is in reference only to the unsaved. Same for Hebrews 6:4-8 (v 8 depicts the unsaved; v 9 onward depicts the saved.

 

[Sparkey]

so...examples....ongoing adultery...not good at all....a random adulterous encounter out of weakness...forgivable?

Greetings, Christ_Empowered!

I too like examples. To me, this is where the rubber meets the road and we can talk and talk about things but until we make it "real" with real-life examples? Somehow I don't quite get it. But to answer your question? We'd need to use a different example. There are 4 very specific sins that are discussed and chosen while the Jews were considering how they would teach Gentiles. You may know them.

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

By this we may conclude that your examples of adultery and the random hook-up are both examples of sins we are commanded to FLEE from as in "Flee from sexual impurity!"

But we could use a couple more examples if you'd like. One of my favorite is breaking the speeding law. I like this one because almost everybody does it and very seldom are people (even Christians) known to repent of it. So it's a good candidate if we want something that we may all relate to.

We know that all authority ultimately comes from God. We know that He supports our governments especially as they try to regulate for the betterment of the citizens of the country. So Speed Laws might not be our favorite things but as far as, "Can we believe that God is a supporter or no?" The answer is clear.

Then, after picking an example... we can look at the likely outcomes. What happens when we deliberately choose to continue in sin? What happens when we habitually break the law of man? Certainly the Law of God is higher and exceeds the requirements of man's law. But what happens? Well, it's like any other sin. Consider lying. The first time? OH MY!!! WHAT HAVE I DONE???" :shock

But then? After a couple guilty looks around for police and seeing none and after a moment where we feel like God might strike us by lightening? But nothing happens? Well, maybe it's not so bad? No! Clearly this is wrong. We resolve to not do this again. But then... after making a law unto ourselves -- we find ourselves in that dilemma that Paul teaches about where it is no us but sin in us... and we are tempted and eventually find ourselves doing the very thing we said we would not do. Lying, speeding... it doesn't matter. The workings of sin are the same.

But here I am running on at the mouth again. I'm trying to set the stage for ongoing discussion and say that I agree with you about the need for clear examples. It's where the rubber meets the road. It's where our conscious is pricked. Where we are told to NOT kick against the pricks. You know? :yes

~Sparrow

PS - Setting the stage for discussion about "burning one's conscious" and "turning him/her over to their sin" and even "reprobate minds". There are serious consequences. Only mercy (tremendous mercy) and the longsuffering of God prevents these very natural consequences. The Spirit of God will not strive with man forever.

 

[netchaplain]

Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;
wilfully - G1596 - to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness

King David - adultery and murder - committed from weakness, temptation and then fear
Saul/Paul - persecution of the saints, ie. Stephen - committed from ignorance, Saul didn't understand, in his heart he thought that what he was doing was for the Lord, not against
Peter - denied being the Lord's discipline - weakness caused by fear

God looks at the Heart to determine the intent of the heart. Was the intent to deliberately discredit, malign, or spite God. Or was it committed out of one of the reasons above.

So when we look at our own condition (our own sin) what is the attitude of one's heart.
If we know that we have committed a sin and our conscience does not bother us about it in anyway than just maybe we are deceived. And if that attitude continues then it is likely we are not saved (regenerated by the Holy Spirit). Because if one is a child of God then the Holy Spirit is working to bring the child into the full knowledge of who they are in Christ. He points us toward our Savior and says look, that is what righteous looks like and we see God's love for us and that brings us to repentance. Or in His wisdom He knows when to use the discipline of the rod.
imo...
All three men in the above examples prove that God looks at the heart and that God brings His child to repentance.

Quiet accurate, though I'm not familiar with the example of Stephen. Always appreciate your input Sis.

 

[Edward]

... and when I had finally studied the Word enough to see this lesson on shame, a monstrous weight was lifted from my shoulders.

My prayers for understanding go with you.

Could this possibly be the source of misunderstanding of some? I had no problem understanding NC's OP...

 

[th1b.taylor]

I think Hebrews 10:26 is not valid here.
As I read through this section, I see that the intentional sin is not the central theme, but rather the trampling of the Son of God underfoot.
This is done by intentional sin.

But for the true Christian, it is different.
Intentional sin begins in the mind and the heart.
This is sin.
But if we don't follow through with it and actually do the sin, are we then forgiven?
Of course we are.
It goes both ways.
If a true Christian actually commits the sin, he will feel remorse and the need to repent, and God will forgive him.

It's like the Christian who cheats on his spouse and gets caught.
"Oh, I was tempted, I couldn't help myself".
Yeah, that's what they all say when they get caught.
A true Christian would feel guilty and repent.

So, to use Hebrews 10:26 to say intentional sin is not forgiven is not what it means.

AW,
I regret seeing you trying to be cynical but that is how the comments come off, I pray you do not mean it that way. One of my favorite examples of our condition as a Christian is based on Roman punishment. In some of the captured states, if a man were caught immediately, the corpse was affixed to his back so that as it rotted, the same worms ate into the murder's body, killing him in the process of the corpse rotting off of him.

This is a great metaphor, given to me by the LORD in my early studies, for the condition of the New Man, the Christian. i.e. Just after I was saved, the temptation to go back on stage was horrendous. It wa there that people idolized me and all those young, beautiful, young women wanted to bed me. That was not the New Man, that was the corpse on my back exerting all the influence it could. Otherwise and also explained as Satan pulling on my known weakness´.

Because the Holy Spirit had come to me and was indwelling me I had the strength to resist, a.k.a. I did not plan to sin. Had I, foolishly, gone back into one of the Joints I was known to, formerly, play, one of the women I had known she might have, with fluttering lashes, managed to catch me in a moment of weakness and caused me to sin, unplanned sin.

For the Christian, both are forgivable but they are also caught in the midst of conditional forgiveness. Both the Lost and the Saved Man must repent, not so much the physical act alone but deep in the heart repentance. This, true, repentance will not cause the Old Man's tugging (Satan's influence) but the more I practiced this the less the influence, helping me to live a more holy life for my Saviour.

The rest NC will deal with for you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Could this possibly be the source of misunderstanding of some? I had no problem understanding NC's OP...

Thank you Edward. The llack of devotion to studying the Word of God is the most common Christian ailment imho.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Quiet accurate, though I'm not familiar with the example of Stephen. Always appreciate your input Sis.

I took her example of Stephen to mean Stephen's death in Acts where Saul, later Paul, held the cloaks as he was stoned to death. If I'm wrong, Deb, correct me, please.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

AW,
I regret seeing you trying to be cynical but that is how the comments come off, I pray you do not mean it that way. One of my favorite examples of our condition as a Christian is based on Roman punishment. In some of the captured states, if a man were caught immediately, the corpse was affixed to his back so that as it rotted, the same worms ate into the murder's body, killing him in the process of the corpse rotting off of him.

This is a great metaphor, given to me by the LORD in my early studies, for the condition of the New Man, the Christian. i.e. Just after I was saved, the temptation to go back on stage was horrendous. It wa there that people idolized me and all those young, beautiful, young women wanted to bed me. That was not the New Man, that was the corpse on my back exerting all the influence it could. Otherwise and also explained as Satan pulling on my known weakness´.

Because the Holy Spirit had come to me and was indwelling me I had the strength to resist, a.k.a. I did not plan to sin. Had I, foolishly, gone back into one of the Joints I was known to, formerly, play, one of the women I had known she might have, with fluttering lashes, managed to catch me in a moment of weakness and caused me to sin, unplanned sin.

For the Christian, both are forgivable but they are also caught in the midst of conditional forgiveness. Both the Lost and the Saved Man must repent, not so much the physical act alone but deep in the heart repentance. This, true, repentance will not cause the Old Man's tugging (Satan's influence) but the more I practiced this the less the influence, helping me to live a more holy life for my Saviour.

The rest NC will deal with for you.

Oh, I got past being cynical after a talk with SparrowHawke.
I am quite serious with my reply about Hebrews 10:26.
I sat there and studied it for some time, and that's what I see.
I feel if you are to say that intentional sin is not forgiven, you need to provide another Scripture.
No Scripture?
Then it's just opinion.

 

[Edward]

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oh, I got past being cynical after a talk with SparrowHawke.
I am quite serious with my reply about Hebrews 10:26.
I sat there and studied it for some time, and that's what I see.
I feel if you are to say that intentional sin is not forgiven, you need to provide another Scripture.
No Scripture?
Then it's just opinion.

Going back to see the wording in the OP because i did not see what you are seeing.

 

[Sparkey]

There is the case of the backslider that may also be considered. And not all backsliders are aware of their situation exactly because we love to deceive ourselves preferring to believe the lie that makes us look good over the truth of the matter.

But even in this God is faithful. I've never been anywhere in my Christian walk where He was not with me. Sure, there were times when I felt more "lost" than others, times when the Presence of God did not feel as real and close as other times... but even in the worst places God is faithful.

The Spirit is easily grieved and withdraws when we choose to sin. Part of this is the wisdom of the ages, part is the nature of holiness of God itself and another part is the mercy of God. Mercy because if we sin in full light, being awake and aware and fully cognizant? We are heaping judgment on ourselves. If we are partially in darkness? Well, that's the part that I call "merciful".

There is much to say about such things and sadly very few who speak in a forthright manner about things that are common and shared by all. It doesn't matter how great a sin is (except we really, really need to stay away from the Galations 5 things) because all sin is utterly sinful. All sin seeks the same thing and when we cooperate with it? There is consequence. The saving grace comes when we finally get to the bottom floor and say, "HEY! Enough is enough!"

I've heard about some who are likened to those walking in a desert and are parched and thirsty and growing weaker and weaker. In their desperation, in my desperation, and while crawling, growing steadily weaker in the direct and burning sun... their hand, my hand, reaches out and turns over a nearby rock. There are crawly things uncovered that scamper away from the heat of the day and seek shelter in the shade. The hand, my hand... reaches again and takes one of the juicy bugs and then slowly brings it to the mouth.

There is moisture (not water) in that morsel and we, convinced that there is no other choice, seek to take what we can in what we see as our dire situation. But to this? To our depravity? To our very real and desperate condition comes one sent specifically for us. One who stands and states, "If any are thirsty, let him come to me and I will give him living water..."

This one promises that "out of their bellies shall flow living waters..."

And this? This word is a perfect description of what is called "prophecy" -- where the word of God flows from our inner man and outward to others so that they too may share in our abundance. Yes, we serve a Might God and yes His longsuffering is without compare... but we are called to become more and more like Him. Called to consider how He has dealt with us even as we deal with our brothers and sisters. His wisdom. His longsuffering. Our example. His Spirit and Glory. For really? There is no way for me to plausibly misrepresent myself as something good or worth following except as I have followed Jesus. No way. "My glory I shall not give to another."

That's a good thing too. Nobody who follows me may be saved except and unless they follow AS I FOLLOW our Lord.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Going back to see the wording in the OP because i did not see what you are seeing.

I found what you are stuck on in NC's second reply and he might need to correct me but when I read that the first time I took it in the light of some of the understanding I have gained through study.

I have accepted that in any assembly on Sunday Morning the Church Building is filled with Lost People. In the oft quoted by me, Barna Survey of the Church Universal in the mid-eighties, we see the demonstration that when a double blind survey is used we can dig down to near the truth and it demonstrated that less than 2% of the members are saved.

I took that response to mean the pretenders in the midst of the Church. When I was lost I had a Drug Store Cowboy that clung on that specialized in doing Christian women. The Ladies were tempted and, if they were saved, they will be forgiven when they repent. On the other hand there is no forgiveness for the wearer of the Silver Belly Stetson.

Of course that does not mean he cannot be forgiven if he, truly, repents and begins to live for the Christ but as long as he is planning to sin, there is no and there will be no forgiveness.

Here, again, NC can correct me if I'm wrong but that is what I see him aiming at.

-

 

[th1b.taylor]

There is the case of the backslider that may also be considered. And not all backsliders are aware of their situation exactly because we love to deceive ourselves preferring to believe the lie that makes us look good over the truth of the matter.

But even in this God is faithful. I've never been anywhere in my Christian walk where He was not with me. Sure, there were times when I felt more "lost" than others, times when the Presence of God did not feel as real and close as other times... but even in the worst places God is faithful.

The Spirit is easily grieved and withdraws when we choose to sin. Part of this is the wisdom of the ages, part is the nature of holiness of God itself and another part is the mercy of God. Mercy because if we sin in full light, being awake and aware and fully cognizant? We are heaping judgment on ourselves. If we are partially in darkness? Well, that's the part that I call "merciful".

There is much to say about such things and sadly very few who speak in a forthright manner about things that are common and shared by all. It doesn't matter how great a sin is (except we really, really need to stay away from the Galations 5 things) because all sin is utterly sinful. All sin seeks the same thing and when we cooperate with it? There is consequence. The saving grace comes when we finally get to the bottom floor and say, "HEY! Enough is enough!"

I've heard about some who are likened to those walking in a desert and are parched and thirsty and growing weaker and weaker. In their desperation, in my desperation, and while crawling, growing steadily weaker in the direct and burning sun... their hand, my hand, reaches out and turns over a nearby rock. There are crawly things uncovered that scamper away from the heat of the day and seek shelter in the shade. The hand, my hand... reaches again and takes one of the juicy bugs and then slowly brings it to the mouth.

There is moisture (not water) in that morsel and we, convinced that there is no other choice, seek to take what we can in what we see as our dire situation. But to this? To our depravity? To our very real and desperate condition comes one sent specifically for us. One who stands and states, "If any are thirsty, let him come to me and I will give him living water..."

This one promises that "out of their bellies shall flow living waters..."

And this? This word is a perfect description of what is called "prophecy" -- where the word of God flows from our inner man and outward to others so that they too may share in our abundance. Yes, we serve a Might God and yes His longsuffering is without compare... but we are called to become more and more like Him. Called to consider how He has dealt with us even as we deal with our brothers and sisters. His wisdom. His longsuffering. Our example. His Spirit and Glory. For really? There is no way for me to plausibly misrepresent myself as something good or worth following except as I have followed Jesus. No way. "My glory I shall not give to another."

That's a good thing too. Nobody who follows me may be saved except and unless they follow AS I FOLLOW our Lord.

Very good Life Application, SH.

 

[Deborah13]

I took her example of Stephen to mean Stephen's death in Acts where Saul, later Paul, held the cloaks as he was stoned to death. If I'm wrong, Deb, correct me, please.

Yes, that is it. Thanks for explaining.

 

[netchaplain]

I feel if you are to say that intentional sin is not forgiven, you need to provide another Scripture.
No Scripture?
Then it's just opinion.

I appreciate how applicable your inquiries can be toward truth seeking. Intentional/unintentional sin is in reference to motive of the heart. The sins of one not reborn consist of a lifestyle where he "makes it his trade and business and is the constant course of his life, because he lives in sin (unlike the believer--Rom 8:9), being the servant of it as a slave unto it, thus continuing in it." JG

A believer may have meant an intended sin at the time of committing it, i.e. being an immature Christian, but even in this situation he eventually realizes his dislike for it because of the Spirit's conviction (Gal 5:17). One in whom the Spirit dwells always ends up disliking (hating) the sin as he progressively matures in what God teaches him concerning it.

A reborn cannot sin without it eventually being dealt with in his mind and heart by the Spirit of God, which means none of his sins are intentional. We should also note that the unintentional attitude the believer has towards sin has no effect concerning sin's guilt because that has already been addressed. For it is the Cross-work that pardons, and the good works just manifest it.

"The soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him" (Num 15:30, 31). This passage can only be applied to God's people in the prior dispensation, because now, having the "work" of God within (Phil 2:13; Gal 5:17), one will not live in sin, e.g. cannot commit intentional sin.

"His (Christ's) seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 John 3:9). The "seed" is the "new man" or new nature, which is created after "the image of Him (Christ) who created him (it, because it's not a him or spirit--Col 3:10). It's by the Spirit using Christ's nature, which is divine, that we are "partakers" (2 Pet 1:4).

Which has lead me to the belief that the Enemy works against us (but can never overtake us concerning salvation--Mat 24:24) through the "old man" or old nature; and knowing this does not intend toward becoming tempt-less which is part of our lesson paces.