Non-Christians more caring than Christians

[Aardverk]

It seems to me in this culture that authentic Christians are really rare. As someone who did a lot of church hopping in the past and being a "people watcher" I've observed a lot from various churches and what I saw was pretty disturbing. During worship a vast majority stand there with empty expressions with a tiny handful really filled with the Spirit in worship of our Lord. It's extremely common. And really frustrating...

:yes I could have written that myself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems to me in this culture that authentic Christians are really rare. As someone who did a lot of church hopping in the past and being a "people watcher" I've observed a lot from various churches and what I saw was pretty disturbing. During worship a vast majority stand there with empty expressions with a tiny handful really filled with the Spirit in worship of our Lord. It's extremely common. And really frustrating...

What you describe is what I call the 'church of the world', meaning the major denominations of the world. And it is frustrating. That's why I don't go to church with the world. I see it pointless and unfulfilling to go to a major denomination. They've been thoroughly polluted by people who simply are not born again and insist on conforming Christianity to what they believe it should be (and what should and shouldn't be in the Bible) instead of what the Bible plainly says it is and which has been tested and proven to be the truth by more than just a few sincere seekers through the centuries.

The two main problems I see are this belief that church is for gathering multitudes of unbelievers for purposes of evangelizing them...unbelievers who then find their way into leadership positions without ever becoming born again. Another problem, directly related to this corruption of leadership, is the failure of the church to understand Christianity is all about who you are, not what 'religious' things you do.

This was the big eye opener for me in the first two years of being born again:

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6b NIV1984)

God used this verse and other related verses to set the compass of my Christian journey. I noticed along the way that not many other 'Christians' are on this pathway to maturity, but instead are all about worship techniques, proper doctrinal beliefs about the facts of the faith, etc. never realizing the true intent and purpose God has set for them.

 

[stovebolts]

It seems to me in this culture that authentic Christians are really rare. As someone who did a lot of church hopping in the past and being a "people watcher" I've observed a lot from various churches and what I saw was pretty disturbing. During worship a vast majority stand there with empty expressions with a tiny handful really filled with the Spirit in worship of our Lord. It's extremely common. And really frustrating...

I find that very interesting. That is, that you both church hop and watch people, and then you become frustrated and it sounds like this is a pattern you've adopted. Please don't take this wrong ok? It's just an observation and I don't know the details.

I learned a long, long time ago that it's really easy to stand at the back of the room and throw rocks at everyone. But what's really hard is to stick around and actually make a difference. That's where the real work begins.

 

[stovebolts]

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6b NIV1984)

God used this verse and other related verses to set the compass of my Christian journey. I noticed along the way that not many other 'Christians' are on this pathway to maturity, but instead are all about worship techniques, proper doctrinal beliefs about the facts of the faith, etc. never realizing the true intent and purpose God has set for them.

Here's the deal. Faith expressing itself though love.. when you wrap flesh around that, what does it look like?

1 Corinthians 13:13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Let's all get better at meditating on these, and put flesh around the scriptures that is a love that can not only be felt, but can be seen as well. It's way easier said than done... but who said living a Christian life was easy?

Again, "Faith, expressing itself through love"... What a challenge huh?

God Bless.

 

[Hammer]

John Lennox when talking about morality always says some of his atheist friends put him to shame by their desire to do good. I have atheist friends who do that with me. There was a sign outside a church that said "God prefers atheists who do good than hateful Christians" (or something along those lines) Not sure how true that statement is but I get the sentiment behind it.

I don't think God thinks too highly of self-hating Christians, either.

 

[Hammer]

Being gay is not a sin, but living a homosexual lifestyle is. It's when we give in to our lusts. Let me put it this way. Every thought that enters your mind, regardless of how sinful it may be, is not sinning in and of itself. Fact is, nobody can control the random thoughts that come into their minds and we are not held accountable for those random thoughts.

I have to disagree. Jesus said that to lust at a woman is adultry. A sinful thought is a sin. There is no sin apart from sinful thoughts. The law is written in our hearts. But, these are random thoughts?! That's bondage to sin. When we set our lifestyles and minds on righteousness, those sinful thoughts deminish.

Those Christian friends didn't (I hope) drift away because she said she was strugging with sinful feelings. They rightly left her because she was unrepentant. And, if she weren't guitly of one of the favorite sins of our culture, we wouldn't be apologizing for those Christian friends appropriatly drifting away.

Finally, I wanted to add to your comment about Jesus eating with sinners. Yes, yes he did. But if we look at the ministry of Jesus, it was a ministry of repentance.

Jesus didn't eat with sinners. He at with ex-sinners. I know you're going to find a verse that says Jesus ate with sinners. Jesus ate at the Apostle Matthew's house, where the Pharisees accused him of eating win sinners. I hardly think Matthew is a sinner. His supposed sin was tax collecting, which he never did again, after meeting Jesus. The people at Matthew's house simply weren't observant Jews. And, after they met Jesus, they became observant of righteousness.

Jesus taught people to stop sinning. That's not a message real sinners want to hear. Real sinners wouldn't want to eat with Jesus.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I have to disagree. Jesus said that to lust at a woman is adultry. A sinful thought is a sin. There is no sin apart from sinful thoughts. The law is written in our hearts. But, these are random thoughts?! That's bondage to sin. When we set our lifestyles and minds on righteousness, those sinful thoughts deminish.

I know you're not talking to me, but I wanted to say something anyway.
As my dad used to tell me, "You can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from nesting in your hair."
It's impossible not to have thoughts about sinful things at one time or another, and I think a lot of times the devil will bring something into our thoughts on purpose. It's not a sin to be tempted or to have a wrong thought, but it is a sin to entertain the thought.

 

[Atonement]

I know you're not talking to me, but I wanted to say something anyway.
As my dad used to tell me, "You can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from nesting in your hair."
It's impossible not to have thoughts about sinful things at one time or another, and I think a lot of times the devil will bring something into our thoughts on purpose. It's not a sin to be tempted or to have a wrong thought, but it is a sin to entertain the thought.

questdriven -

I agree, I believe that people in Jesus' day thought they were good (in their own eyes) because they have kept the law. But Jesus took it to a whole new Spiritual level.

Matthew 5:21-24 “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment

And I'm reminded of the Rich man who came and told Jesus that he has kept the "all" the law since he was young. What did Jesus say? He told the man to go and sale all he had and to follow Him. Jesus was telling him that he can not put anything above Him. Mark 10:17-31

The law was given to us so that we can see that we are in need of a Redeemer, a Savior and that came in the person of Jesus our Messiah.

The point is, we all sin and if not in deed then in thought and our own flesh and the desires thereof. We need Jesus, we need His Grace and His saving Blood to atone for our sins. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

-LJ

 

[Aardverk]

I find that very interesting. That is, that you both church hop and watch people, and then you become frustrated and it sounds like this is a pattern you've adopted. Please don't take this wrong ok? It's just an observation and I don't know the details.

I learned a long, long time ago that it's really easy to stand at the back of the room and throw rocks at everyone. But what's really hard is to stick around and actually make a difference. That's where the real work begins.

I think you know that I had a long search for ways to recover my faith once I started losing it. I struggle to see anything actually wrong with exploring various denominations or sects - just to see if they have an answer that I had not thought of. Clearly, when 'examining' a new church, it is the people and their beliefs which count - one must therefore observe and learn.

Far from standing at the back throwing rocks, I would either remain silent, observe and quietly go away OR, if they seemed intelligent and interesting, I would ask questions and challenge things that were clearly wrong. You can choose to call that throwing rocks if you like but how can you avoid asking questions and challenging notions if you are trying to learn?

Almost exactly the same applies to this forum. I have often responded robustly to personal attacks on me, and there have been quite a few of those, but I don't think you will find anywhere that I have 'thrown rocks'. I have certainly pointed out 'errors' but so does everyone else. Am I to be subject to different rules from everyone else?

 

[joethemechanic]

During worship a vast majority stand there with empty expressions with a tiny handful really filled with the Spirit in worship of our Lord.

How can you think that you can know a persons heart by the faces they make during a church service?


How's this face for ya?

 

[joethemechanic]

sorry duplicate post

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have certainly pointed out 'errors' but so does everyone else. Am I to be subject to different rules from everyone else?

Yes, because you seem to be here to tear down the church and the Bible, not defend it.

The 'truth' you champion is to leave the Bible and Christianity we know today behind and make it something else. That's why you are different than everyone else here.

 

[Atonement]

I'm sorry

As a Christian I want to apologize for the body of believers that have lead so many astray.

It hurts my heart to know that many look at the Church today and see a line of many hypocritical theological ankle biters.

The Church has lost focus on the importance of the Words of God. Love one another, showing kindness to one another, being humble and a servant to all serving them with a heart after Christ's.

I'm so sorry that some of you may feel resentment towards the Church, I pray for the body of believers that this will change. Please do not let the actions of some construct the path that this leads to all Christians. Many of us love our Lord and want nothing more then to share His message of hope. I hope that the spirit is not quenched in neither of you but rather hunger to know our Lord and have Him renewed daily in your walk with Him.

God Bless each of you

- LJ

 

[Hammer]

I'm sorry

As a Christian I want to apologize for the body of believers that have lead so many astray.

The believers that lead others astray are those who teach sinners that they should resent the church and Christians for calling on sinners to repent and that they should resent for Christians who don't ignore destructive behavior and influence within the church.

The OP says this woman's friends "slowly drifted away". That's not hate or ankle biting, as you put it. That's giving the woman time to repent. That's the Christians taking time to evaluate the situation.

Some Christians think hate is love. It is hating the righteous when you want poison poison their sanctuary with unrepentant sinners. It is hating the sinners when you jeopardize their souls by not only refusing to tell them to stop sinning, but you condemn those who do say "go and sin no more."

1Cor5:11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Why don't you answer Paul?

 

[Aardverk]

Yes, because you seem to be here to tear down the church and the Bible, not defend it.

The 'truth' you champion is to leave the Bible and Christianity we know today behind and make it something else. That's why you are different than everyone else here.

I'm sorry to see that you still do not understand my position Jethro. I have nothing against any peaceful religion and even my introductory post described how I loved my Christian heritage. Repeatedly attacking me with falsehoods does not make them facts. As you have attacked me yet again, I hope I will be allowed to stray a little off-topic and respond in some detail. Maybe you can then leave your animosity behind and learn from non-Christians - much in line with the OP.:yes

Christianity has been a wonderful inspiration to countless millions and has done enormous good. Why would anyone want to 'tear it down'? Conversely, Christianity has been used and abused by people who distort the teachings of Jesus for their own ends. Those who have been given 'power' by Christianity have (usually) been corrupted by that power. I have certainly written against that corruption and I can see nothing wrong with doing so.

My understanding is that you believe that all of the bible has been divinely inspired and therefore feel that it should all be followed without question. However, I have witnessed arguments between you and other forum members who share that view but who nevertheless interpret things differently from you. From this is should be clear to all that the bible is subject to interpretation. It is not a simple instruction manual.

Given the multiplicity of Christian denominations, all of whom feel that they are interpreting scripture correctly, it should be clear that no one person can be certain that they are 'right' no matter how often they hear voices telling them what to do. Those who repeatedly call others 'sinners' and feel themselves above those others are on dangerous ground. Love and tolerance was taught by Jesus and it is the prime, almost unique, lesson that should not be forgotten by any of us.

I have from time to time quoted the bible simply to emphasize that there are other interpretations. I know that you did not like me doing that but those are the words in the bible! Even if certain words are more generally accepted, if there are words which contradict the generally accepted words, and there usually are, we need to consider everything and NOT disregard the less popular words. If you choose to regard such practice as subversive, there is nothing I can do about that. I am simply trying to make people think for themselves rather than continue with damaging knee-jerk reactions.

Probably the only area where we really differ is that I see the Bible as basically a history book. A great deal of the Bible is confirmed by other sources to be correct but some of it is shown by other sources to be incorrect or highly questionable. It is based on the understanding of people millenia ago. They did not necessarily know they were wrong but in some cases they clearly were. If we then add in tens of thousands of translation and copying errors, the bible becomes, to me, a very interesting book but not a book of absolute, reliable fact. Finally, I can not make myself ignore that this 'history book' was written on the instructions of Constantine to try to get the different strains of Christianity to stop fighting each other. I hardly need to tell you that it did not work, we now have far more Christian denominations than Constantine knew. ALL denominations think that they and they alone are right - but they can't all be right - can they?

I am truly sorry if these facts upset you but they are facts.

 

[Atonement]

The believers that lead others astray are those who teach sinners that they should resent the church and Christians for calling on sinners to repent and that they should resent for Christians who don't ignore destructive behavior and influence within the church.

The OP says this woman's friends "slowly drifted away". That's not hate or ankle biting, as you put it. That's giving the woman time to repent. That's the Christians taking time to evaluate the situation.

Some Christians think hate is love. It is hating the righteous when you want poison poison their sanctuary with unrepentant sinners. It is hating the sinners when you jeopardize their souls by not only refusing to tell them to stop sinning, but you condemn those who do say "go and sin no more."

1Cor5:11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Why don't you answer Paul?

Hammer -

Thank you for replying to my response. You said that I used hate somewhere? Brother can you share with me anywhere where I used hate so I can confess that before God and repent of any wrong doing of my heart? My response was out of love for sinners, I have a heart for those that do not know Christ. If for some reason you thought I had hate in my heart, then please forgive me..

This post was not actually referring to the OP per say, it was an apology in general to anyone who feels rejected by the Church and who may come here reading this thread with that type of resentment in their hearts. I want them to know that we care for them dearly and want nothing more then to have them spend eternity with our Father in Heaven!

- LJ

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm sorry to see that you still do not understand my position Jethro. I have nothing against any peaceful religion and even my introductory post described how I loved my Christian heritage. Repeatedly attacking me with falsehoods does not make them facts. As you have attacked me yet again, I hope I will be allowed to stray a little off-topic and respond in some detail. Maybe you can then leave your animosity behind and learn from non-Christians - much in line with the OP.:yes

Christianity has been a wonderful inspiration to countless millions and has done enormous good. Why would anyone want to 'tear it down'? Conversely, Christianity has been used and abused by people who distort the teachings of Jesus for their own ends. Those who have been given 'power' by Christianity have (usually) been corrupted by that power. I have certainly written against that corruption and I can see nothing wrong with doing so.

My understanding is that you believe that all of the bible has been divinely inspired and therefore feel that it should all be followed without question. However, I have witnessed arguments between you and other forum members who share that view but who nevertheless interpret things differently from you. From this is should be clear to all that the bible is subject to interpretation. It is not a simple instruction manual.

Given the multiplicity of Christian denominations, all of whom feel that they are interpreting scripture correctly, it should be clear that no one person can be certain that they are 'right' no matter how often they hear voices telling them what to do. Those who repeatedly call others 'sinners' and feel themselves above those others are on dangerous ground. Love and tolerance was taught by Jesus and it is the prime, almost unique, lesson that should not be forgotten by any of us.

I have from time to time quoted the bible simply to emphasize that there are other interpretations. I know that you did not like me doing that but those are the words in the bible! Even if certain words are more generally accepted, if there are words which contradict the generally accepted words, and there usually are, we need to consider everything and NOT disregard the less popular words. If you choose to regard such practice as subversive, there is nothing I can do about that. I am simply trying to make people think for themselves rather than continue with damaging knee-jerk reactions.

Probably the only area where we really differ is that I see the Bible as basically a history book. A great deal of the Bible is confirmed by other sources to be correct but some of it is shown by other sources to be incorrect or highly questionable. It is based on the understanding of people millenia ago. They did not necessarily know they were wrong but in some cases they clearly were. If we then add in tens of thousands of translation and copying errors, the bible becomes, to me, a very interesting book but not a book of absolute, reliable fact. Finally, I can not make myself ignore that this 'history book' was written on the instructions of Constantine to try to get the different strains of Christianity to stop fighting each other. I hardly need to tell you that it did not work, we now have far more Christian denominations than Constantine knew. ALL denominations think that they and they alone are right - but they can't all be right - can they?

I am truly sorry if these facts upset you but they are facts.

You are different because you are outside of Christianity. You can not be outside of Christianity and expect to be received the same way one would receive another person who is within Christianity but who may just be at a different stage of growth and learning , or who has a differing opinion about the things that don't determine whether or not you're a Christian to begin with.

It's absurd to think one can reject the very knowledge that sets the believer apart from the unbeliever and then expect to be embraced like a brother while they tear the foundations of the faith apart.

This is what Paul said to those who were tearing the church apart in his day:

"11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" (Galatians 6:11-12 NIV1984)

You would have to know the Bible to know what he's driving at, but still it's not a very warm and cozy reception is it? But it's important that unbelievers who tear the faith down know that they don't have any part whatsoever with the body of Christ and the kingdom of God. And those who openly profess unbelief and reject the simple gospel they have been told are to be treated differently than those who do belong to the family of God. Not personally attacked, but there are many who feel the gospel itself is a personal attack. What can you do with such people??? There is no 'right' thing to say to them or 'right' way to treat them (in their eyes) outside of changing what the Bible says and what we believe. Do that, then they are happy and at peace with you.

There's no way to reconcile with such a person. Polite, respectful, cautious distance is the only answer. You don't have to hate a person to do this. But distance will almost certainly be received as hateful by the unbeliever.

The offense of the gospel to unbelievers is one of the hardest things to deal with as a Christian. It isn't offensive to share the gospel, but when the person hearing the gospel is offended by it and demands that you change the gospel to make it less offensive you're going to be perceived as offensive and impolite, etc. There's really nothing a believer can do about it, except stay out of that person's way and recognize that person has to be treated differently than those in the kingdom of God.

 

[stovebolts]

Being gay is not a sin, but living a homosexual lifestyle is. It's when we give in to our lusts. Let me put it this way. Every thought that enters your mind, regardless of how sinful it may be, is not sinning in and of itself. Fact is, nobody can control the random thoughts that come into their minds and we are not held accountable for those random thoughts.

I have to disagree. Jesus said that to lust at a woman is adultry. A sinful thought is a sin. There is no sin apart from sinful thoughts. The law is written in our hearts. But, these are random thoughts?! That's bondage to sin. When we set our lifestyles and minds on righteousness, those sinful thoughts deminish.

Hammer, I can see how you misunderstood what I was saying but I'd like to note that being tempted is not a sin. It is when we give in to that temptation that we sin and what I am talking about is being tempted. Nobody can control the random thoughts that pop's into their head for they are simply tempations. We are only held accountable with what we do with those tempations.

NIV: James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.†For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Finally, I wanted to add to your comment about Jesus eating with sinners. Yes, yes he did. But if we look at the ministry of Jesus, it was a ministry of repentance.

Jesus didn't eat with sinners. He at with ex-sinners...
Jesus taught people to stop sinning. That's not a message real sinners want to hear. Real sinners wouldn't want to eat with Jesus....

Jesus went to where the lost sheep were, wherever they were. His ministry was a ministry of repentance. He did not condone sin. There are so many instances of Jesus eating with sinners:

NIV: Luke 5:27 After this, Jesus went out and saw a tax collector by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. “Follow me,†Jesus said to him, 28 and Levi got up, left everything and followed him.

29 Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. 30 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?â€

31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.â€

Jesus does not deny that he is eating with sinners. He affirms it.. and states his ministry.

We see this again in Luke 19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.†6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.â€

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.â€

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.â€

There are many more we could post.





Grace and Peace.

 

[Aardverk]

You are different because you are outside of Christianity. You can not be outside of Christianity and expect to be received the same way one would receive another person who is within Christianity but who may just be at a different stage of growth and learning , or who has a differing opinion about the things that don't determine whether or not you're a Christian to begin with.

Prejudice is prejudice, no matter how hard you try to disguise it. Read the OP again Jethro

This is what Paul said to those who were tearing the church apart in his day...................

Many people regard Paul as a corrupter of the true teaching of Jesus but that is a forbidden subject;)

You would have to know the Bible to know what he's driving at.....

Many of us think that we know the Bible. Some of us are wrong Jethro.

The offense of the gospel to unbelievers is one of the hardest things to deal with as a Christian. It isn't offensive to share the gospel, but when the person hearing the gospel is offended by it and demands that you change the gospel to make it less offensive you're going to be perceived as offensive and impolite, etc.

You misunderstand the situation completely Jethro. Perhaps I can help you understand why. Although I am not an 'unbeliever' - whatever you mean by that, I will use your word.

No intelligent 'unbeliever' is in any way offended by the 'gospel'. EVERY 'unbeliever' regards the Bible as a book. He/she regards people who put that one book above ALL other knowledge and learning of mankind as rather surprising. He/she tolerates their surprising beliefs, without taking any offense, because they recognize that we all have limits to our knowledge.

Where it goes wrong is that SOME of the people, who place that one book above all the other learning of man, start preaching and telling other people they are 'wicked sinners' and that much of the knowledge and learning of mankind is wrong or wicked or from the devil. That is the point at which some intelligent people take offense Jethro.

Given that you personally don't hesitate to call people 'wicked sinners' (would you like me to quote you?), it is hardly surprising that you meet offended unbelievers. If you offend people (not the gospel), you must expect them to retaliate in some manner; that is human nature. Given that non-Christians do not try to preach and do not try to follow contradictory rules, they are free to be naturally more caring and have unfettered sympathy for people with troubles. That is what the OP is about.

If I preach anything, it is love and tolerance. I am not ashamed of that. My ethos is basically that of the 'Sea of Faith'. Where I may upset people is when I stand up against intolerance and prejudice.2

As a Christian, I NEVER met a single 'unbeliever' who was offended by the gospel. I dare say I was a Christian for longer than your lifetime.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Prejudice is prejudice, no matter how hard you try to disguise it. Read the OP again Jethro
Many people regard Paul as a corrupter of the true teaching of Jesus but that is a forbidden subject;)
Many of us think that we know the Bible. Some of us are wrong Jethro.
You misunderstand the situation completely Jethro. Perhaps I can help you understand why. Although I am not an 'unbeliever' - whatever you mean by that, I will use your word.

No intelligent 'unbeliever' is in any way offended by the 'gospel'. EVERY 'unbeliever' regards the Bible as a book. He/she regards people who put that one book above ALL other knowledge and learning of mankind as rather surprising. He/she tolerates their surprising beliefs, without taking any offense, because they recognize that we all have limits to our knowledge.

Where it goes wrong is that SOME of the people, who place that one book above all the other learning of man, start preaching and telling other people they are 'wicked sinners' and that much of the knowledge and learning of mankind is wrong or wicked or from the devil. That is the point at which some intelligent people take offense Jethro.

Given that you personally don't hesitate to call people 'wicked sinners' (would you like me to quote you?), it is hardly surprising that you meet offended unbelievers. If you offend people (not the gospel), you must expect them to retaliate in some manner; that is human nature. Given that non-Christians do not try to preach and do not try to follow contradictory rules, they are free to be naturally more caring and have unfettered sympathy for people with troubles. That is what the OP is about.

If I preach anything, it is love and tolerance. I am not ashamed of that. My ethos is basically that of the 'Sea of Faith'. Where I may upset people is when I stand up against intolerance and prejudice.2

As a Christian, I NEVER met a single 'unbeliever' who was offended by the gospel. I dare say I was a Christian for longer than your lifetime.

"7 The world cannot hate you (in your natural self), but it hates Me (Jesus) because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil." (John 7:7 NASB)

"6 ...blessed is he who does not take offense at Me (Jesus).” (Matthew 11:6 NASB)

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me." (John 15:18-21 NASB)


It's just a simple fact. If you tell the world the same things Jesus told the world many they will take offense and hate you just like they did Jesus for saying the things he did about them. That's why I said the gospel itself is an offense, but some insist it's the people sharing that gospel that are the offense for saying what they do.

There is nothing you can say to these people that will make it better except to change the gospel to what they are sure it really is and not what the Bible says it is. They are certainly entitled to do that, but for some reason many of them are not content with letting us do and believe what we want.