Not another anti Paul thread?

[Bick]

Another anti-Saul post?

Hi George. I might get to your PDF later, but now I wish to continue on this forum.

You have made reference to the Ebionites and Nazarenes. Here is info I got on the Hope of Israel Ministries (Church of YEHOVAH) link"

of YEHOVAH):

The Mysterious Relationship of


The Early Nazarene Christians and Rabbinic Judaism

During early New Testament times, the relationship between
the Pharisees, Sadducees and Christians was often turbulent
and deeply troubled. Matters grew even worse after the fall
of the Temple in 70 A.D. Rabbinic Judaism, which rejected
Yeshua as the Messiah, became increasingly hostile toward the
Nazarene Christians. Rabbi Akiva even endorsed the renegade
Bar Kochba as the "Messiah." Eventually, the rabbis even
put a "curse" into the daily synagogue prayers, the amida,
which directly cursed the nozri or Nazarenes and other similar
minim or "heretics"! Here is the intriguing saga.




What were the earliest Christians called? Scripture tells us that early believers in the Messiah were first called "Christians"or "Messianics," as the Greek would imply -- at the Gentile city of Antioch -- and that appellation was a derogatory term given to them by the local unbelievers, not a name they chose for themselves (see Acts 11:26). The term was also used by king Agrippa when he listened to Paul's defense, and finally blurted out, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28).

Regardless of the origin of the term, however, the apostle Peter later used it himself to describe the followers of the Messiah. He wrote, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God on this behalf" (I Pet.4:16). The Greek word is Christianos, from the word Christos, meaning "Messiah," or "Anointed one."

However, in extant literature from that early time, including the Talmud, and early writings of the Church Fathers, such as Eusebius, and Origen, we find that the earliest Christians were commonly known among their Jewish neighbors and counterparts as "Nazarenes."

The Early "Nazarenes"

Actually, the name "Nazarene(s)" only occurs about a dozen times in Talmudic literature. In all but two of these instances it refers to "Yeshua the Nazarene." Half of these passages were censored in the Middle Ages, either by Christian censors or Jewish editors for fear of them. The censored passages were restored to the Talmud by R.N.N. Rabbinovicz from older MSS. From references to the early Nazarenes from various sources we have learned a number of vitally important things about them. For example, we have discovered that they:

1. Used both Old and New Testaments.
2. Believed in the resurrection of the dead.
3. Had a good knowledge of Hebrew and read the Old Testament and at least one gospel in that language.
4. Believed YEHOVAH God is the creator of all things.
5. Believed in one God (YEHOVAH) and His son Yeshua the Messiah.
6. Observed the Law of Moses.
7. Had a high respect for the writings of the apostle Paul.

Jerome, about 404 A.D.,

NOTICE: The greatest persecution to the Nazerenes was from the orthodox Jews, those with strict adherence to the Torah.
And from the list above the historians say the Nazarenes had a high respect for the writings of Paul.

Haven't you, in previous posts, intimated that the Nazarenes were at odds with Paul?

Bick

 

[Georges]

Re: Another anti-Saul post?

Hi George. I might get to your PDF later, but now I wish to continue on this forum.

You have made reference to the Ebionites and Nazarenes. Here is info I got on the Hope of Israel Ministries (Church of YEHOVAH) link"

of YEHOVAH):

The Mysterious Relationship of


The Early Nazarene Christians and Rabbinic Judaism

During early New Testament times, the relationship between
the Pharisees, Sadducees and Christians was often turbulent
and deeply troubled. Matters grew even worse after the fall
of the Temple in 70 A.D. Rabbinic Judaism, which rejected
Yeshua as the Messiah, became increasingly hostile toward the
Nazarene Christians. Rabbi Akiva even endorsed the renegade
Bar Kochba as the "Messiah." Eventually, the rabbis even
put a "curse" into the daily synagogue prayers, the amida,
which directly cursed the nozri or Nazarenes and other similar
minim or "heretics"! Here is the intriguing saga.

Hold on a sec.....Latter Rabbinic Judaism rejected Jesus, early rabbinic Judaism were looking for the Messiah, and Jesus was just one of many they took a "wait and see" attitude towards. Jesus didn't defeat the Romans and set up the Messianic Kingdom with Israel as the head of the nations...that is why the latter Jewish rabbis rejected Jesus. As far as Bar Kochba was concerned, he wasn't a renegade...that is a false statement. Historically, up until the Bar Kochba rebellion, Nazarene Jews served in the army longside the others...when Bar Kochba was proclaimed Messiah (in an attempt to defeat Rome as the Messiah was supposed to do) the Nazarene Christians split.


What were the earliest Christians called?

Nazarenes.....Jewish believers were called Nazarenes, Gentile Christians at a
Antioch were called Christians...years later.

Scripture tells us that early believers in the Messiah were first called "Christians"or "Messianics," as the Greek would imply -- at the Gentile city of Antioch -- and that appellation was a derogatory term given to them by the local unbelievers, not a name they chose for themselves (see Acts 11:26). The term was also used by king Agrippa when he listened to Paul's defense, and finally blurted out, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28).

This reference to Paul....

Act 24:5 For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Nazarenes...the earliest and Jewish, Christian's....the name of the Gentile believers.

Regardless of the origin of the term, however, the apostle Peter later used it himself to describe the followers of the Messiah. He wrote, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God on this behalf" (I Pet.4:16). The Greek word is Christianos, from the word Christos, meaning "Messiah," or "Anointed one."

I have no problem with that....Christians and Nazarenes should be identified the same....Early Christians (non Pauline) would have beem proselytes...and yet Gentile....therefore Christian.

However, in extant literature from that early time, including the Talmud, and early writings of the Church Fathers, such as Eusebius, and Origen, we find that the earliest Christians were commonly known among their Jewish neighbors and counterparts as "Nazarenes."

The Early "Nazarenes"

Actually, the name "Nazarene(s)" only occurs about a dozen times in Talmudic literature. In all but two of these instances it refers to "Yeshua the Nazarene." Half of these passages were censored in the Middle Ages, either by Christian censors or Jewish editors for fear of them. The censored passages were restored to the Talmud by R.N.N. Rabbinovicz from older MSS. From references to the early Nazarenes from various sources we have learned a number of vitally important things about them. For example, we have discovered that they:

1. Used both Old and New Testaments.

Not quite an honest statement, they rejected Paul but accepted James, Jude, John and Peter as well as a Gospel of the Hebrews (Matthew?).

2. Believed in the resurrection of the dead.
3. Had a good knowledge of Hebrew and read the Old Testament and at least one gospel in that language.

They should have, they are descended from the family of Jesus...even Gamaliel was said to have converted to Nazarene Judaism.

4. Believed YEHOVAH God is the creator of all things.
5. Believed in one God (YEHOVAH) and His son Yeshua the Messiah.
6. Observed the Law of Moses.
7. Had a high respect for the writings of the apostle Paul.

Not true...and revisionist history...the Nazarenes/Ebionites considered Paul and Apostate....


Jerome, about 404 A.D.,

NOTICE: The greatest persecution to the Nazerenes was from the orthodox Jews, those with strict adherence to the Torah.
And from the list above the historians say the Nazarenes had a high respect for the writings of Paul.

Haven't you, in previous posts, intimated that the Nazarenes were at odds with Paul?

Yep....

See the Pseudo Clementines....written before Jerome...also refer to the Epistle of Peter to James....not canon but historical none the less...

Also,

From the wikipedia article on Nazarene...

In the 4th century Jerome also refers to Nazuraioi as those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law." In his Epistle 79, to Augustine, he said that though they believed in Christ the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, who suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rose again, "desiring to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other". He said they used the Aramaic Gospel of the Hebrews, but, while adhering as far as possible to the Mosaic economy as regarded circumcision, sabbaths, foods and the like, they did not refuse to recognize the apostolicity of Paul or the rights of Gentile Christians (See Jerome's Commentary on Isaiah, ix. I). These facts agree with Epiphanius' distinction of them from the Ebionites who did refuse to recognise the apostolicity of Paul, though Jerome himself confuses them with Filaster's Nazorei in Galaatides.

So it would seem that Jerome seems to mix up who the Nazarenes were....as stated in the last sentence. The Nazarenes were very akin to the Ebionites...

Bick

Nice research there Bick....keep digging...I'm sure we probably can counter and recounter ad nauseum.

 

[Georges]

Re: Another anti-Saul post?

Hi George. I might get to your PDF later, but now I wish to continue on this forum.

You have made reference to the Ebionites and Nazarenes. Here is info I got on the Hope of Israel Ministries (Church of YEHOVAH) link"

of YEHOVAH):

The Mysterious Relationship of


The Early Nazarene Christians and Rabbinic Judaism

During early New Testament times, the relationship between
the Pharisees, Sadducees and Christians was often turbulent
and deeply troubled. Matters grew even worse after the fall
of the Temple in 70 A.D. Rabbinic Judaism, which rejected
Yeshua as the Messiah, became increasingly hostile toward the
Nazarene Christians. Rabbi Akiva even endorsed the renegade
Bar Kochba as the "Messiah." Eventually, the rabbis even
put a "curse" into the daily synagogue prayers, the amida,
which directly cursed the nozri or Nazarenes and other similar
minim or "heretics"! Here is the intriguing saga.

Hold on a sec.....Latter Rabbinic Judaism rejected Jesus, early rabbinic Judaism were looking for the Messiah, and Jesus was just one of many they took a "wait and see" attitude towards. Jesus didn't defeat the Romans and set up the Messianic Kingdom with Israel as the head of the nations...that is why the latter Jewish rabbis rejected Jesus. As far as Bar Kochba was concerned, he wasn't a renegade...that is a false statement. Historically, up until the Bar Kochba rebellion, Nazarene Jews served in the army longside the others...when Bar Kochba was proclaimed Messiah (in an attempt to defeat Rome as the Messiah was supposed to do) the Nazarene Christians split.


What were the earliest Christians called?

Nazarenes.....Jewish believers were called Nazarenes, Gentile Christians at a
Antioch were called Christians...years later.

Scripture tells us that early believers in the Messiah were first called "Christians"or "Messianics," as the Greek would imply -- at the Gentile city of Antioch -- and that appellation was a derogatory term given to them by the local unbelievers, not a name they chose for themselves (see Acts 11:26). The term was also used by king Agrippa when he listened to Paul's defense, and finally blurted out, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28).

This reference to Paul....

Act 24:5 For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Nazarenes...the earliest and Jewish, Christian's....the name of the Gentile believers.

Regardless of the origin of the term, however, the apostle Peter later used it himself to describe the followers of the Messiah. He wrote, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God on this behalf" (I Pet.4:16). The Greek word is Christianos, from the word Christos, meaning "Messiah," or "Anointed one."

I have no problem with that....Christians and Nazarenes should be identified the same....Early Christians (non Pauline) would have beem proselytes...and yet Gentile....therefore Christian.

However, in extant literature from that early time, including the Talmud, and early writings of the Church Fathers, such as Eusebius, and Origen, we find that the earliest Christians were commonly known among their Jewish neighbors and counterparts as "Nazarenes."

The Early "Nazarenes"

Actually, the name "Nazarene(s)" only occurs about a dozen times in Talmudic literature. In all but two of these instances it refers to "Yeshua the Nazarene." Half of these passages were censored in the Middle Ages, either by Christian censors or Jewish editors for fear of them. The censored passages were restored to the Talmud by R.N.N. Rabbinovicz from older MSS. From references to the early Nazarenes from various sources we have learned a number of vitally important things about them. For example, we have discovered that they:

1. Used both Old and New Testaments.

Not quite an honest statement, they rejected Paul but accepted James, Jude, John and Peter as well as a Gospel of the Hebrews (Matthew?).

2. Believed in the resurrection of the dead.
3. Had a good knowledge of Hebrew and read the Old Testament and at least one gospel in that language.

They should have, they are descended from the family of Jesus...even Gamaliel was said to have converted to Nazarene Judaism.

4. Believed YEHOVAH God is the creator of all things.
5. Believed in one God (YEHOVAH) and His son Yeshua the Messiah.
6. Observed the Law of Moses.
7. Had a high respect for the writings of the apostle Paul.

Not true...and revisionist history...the Nazarenes/Ebionites considered Paul and Apostate....


Jerome, about 404 A.D.,

NOTICE: The greatest persecution to the Nazerenes was from the orthodox Jews, those with strict adherence to the Torah.
And from the list above the historians say the Nazarenes had a high respect for the writings of Paul.

Haven't you, in previous posts, intimated that the Nazarenes were at odds with Paul?

Yep....

See the Pseudo Clementines....written before Jerome...also refer to the Epistle of Peter to James....not canon but historical none the less...

Also,

From the wikipedia article on Nazarene...

In the 4th century Jerome also refers to Nazuraioi as those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law." In his Epistle 79, to Augustine, he said that though they believed in Christ the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, who suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rose again, "desiring to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other". He said they used the Aramaic Gospel of the Hebrews, but, while adhering as far as possible to the Mosaic economy as regarded circumcision, sabbaths, foods and the like, they did not refuse to recognize the apostolicity of Paul or the rights of Gentile Christians (See Jerome's Commentary on Isaiah, ix. I). These facts agree with Epiphanius' distinction of them from the Ebionites who did refuse to recognise the apostolicity of Paul, though Jerome himself confuses them with Filaster's Nazorei in Galaatides.

So it would seem that Jerome seems to mix up who the Nazarenes were....as stated in the last sentence. The Nazarenes were very akin to the Ebionites...

Bick

Nice research there Bick....keep digging...I'm sure we probably can counter and recounter ad nauseum.

 

[Bick]

Another anti-Saul post?

George, as for your question why don't animal sacrifices and Christ sacrifice
both cover, or take away sins, you are either being facetious, or you are not familiar with the book of Hebrews. Looking at Chapt. 10, NIV:

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship....But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for
me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I
said, 'Here am I--it is written about me in the scroll--I have come to do
your will, O God' ".
He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for
all."

Bick

 

[Georges]

Re: Another anti-Paul post?

George, as for your question why don't animal sacrifices and Christ sacrifice
both cover, or take away sins, you are either being facetious, or you are not familiar with the book of Hebrews. Looking at Chapt. 10, NIV:

I opt for facetious....since I believe that it is the motive of the sacrifice that atones for sins...not the blood of the sacrifice. Following Christ is to obey Torah as he had taught.

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship....But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


Rightly said....it is the repentent and contreit heart that atones for the sin...the sacrifice is the commitment to that repentence.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for
me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I
said, 'Here am I--it is written about me in the scroll--I have come to do
your will, O God' ".

This quote of the OT is a misquote of the original Hebrew verse...I will develope that monday...the info I have to back that statement up is there...

He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for
all."

The first hasn't been set aside....the second has been introduced but will not be fully realized until the Messianic Kingdom.
Bick

 

[Bick]

Another anti-Saul Post?

Hi George. I'll accept the words of historians and the Hope of Israel Ministries (Church of YEHOVAH) link, rather than your personal opinion.

As for Gentile only believers called Christians, and Jewish only believers called Nazarenes, Peter in his first epistle, addressed to the 'Exiles of the Dispersion', Jewish believers who Peter encourages, even though they were being persecuted by the Judaizers. In Chapt. 4:12 ff, he said they would be blessed if they were reproached for the name of Christ. "But let none of you suffer as a murderer......; yet if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but under that name let him glorify God." RSV.

Peter didn't say "suffer as a Nazrene."

George's quote: "Jewish believers were called Nazarenes, Gentile Christians at a Antioch were called Christians...years later."

George, you better read Acts 11:19ff. I'll quote from the NIV: "Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen, traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews. Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus."

NOTICE: There were both Isralite and Greek believers in Antioch who made up the church there. And these disciples were first called Christians there.
And this was within the time that Peter and the 12 apostles were in Jerusalem. True, it was after the conversion of Paul.

George, you are wrong concerning Paul,s preaching. Obviously you have read very little of his writings, yet you can blatanly describe what you think he writes.

No where does Paul preach 'Sin all you want, as long as you have faith you are in'.

Of course, we are saved by faith, justified, declared righteous. And this is true for all humanity; just as Habakuk declared in chapt.2 verse 4: "The Just shall live by Faith."

Look what Paul writes in Rom.6:1,2: "What, then, shall we declare? That we may be persisting in sin that grace should be increasing? May it not be coming to that! We who died to sin, how shall we still be living in it?" CV

All for now, Bick

 

[Georges]

Re: Another anti-Saul Post?

Hi George. I'll accept the words of historians and the Hope of Israel Ministries (Church of YEHOVAH) link, rather than your personal opinion.

That's your problem....But I'm glad to see you are researching the matter. :-D

As for Gentile only believers called Christians, and Jewish only believers called Nazarenes, Peter in his first epistle, addressed to the 'Exiles of the Dispersion', Jewish believers who Peter encourages, even though they were being persecuted by the Judaizers. In Chapt. 4:12 ff, he said they would be blessed if they were reproached for the name of Christ. "But let none of you suffer as a murderer......; yet if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but under that name let him glorify God." RSV.

Peter didn't say "suffer as a Nazrene."

George's quote: "Jewish believers were called Nazarenes, Gentile Christians at a Antioch were called Christians...years later."

And...Bick....when was Peter written...? Sometime after the start of Paul's Gentile movement? At what point do the names become synonomous? To whom and where is Peter writing? Is he writing to the Jews in the land or is he writing to the Jews in Gentile lands? It makes a difference. Maybe I should have worded "Jewish believers" as "Jewish believers in Israel/Judea" as opposed to world wide.

George, you better read Acts 11:19ff. I'll quote from the NIV: "Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen, traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews. Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus."

NOTICE: There were both Isralite and Greek believers in Antioch who made up the church there.

No problem there.....Hellenist Jews (akin to Paul)....You can still have Nazarenes (natural Jew and proselyte) and Christians (Gentile God fearers) mixed...History makes it quite clear that the Nazarenes kept their Jewish practices...and refered to themselves as Nazarenes...up until the 300's.

And these disciples were first called Christians there.

And Antioch is where? Again, not in Israel...

And this was within the time that Peter and the 12 apostles were in Jerusalem. True, it was after the conversion of Paul.

George, you are wrong concerning Paul,s preaching. Obviously you have read very little of his writings, yet you can blatanly describe what you think he writes.

Bick...are you kidding....I was an every Sunday go to church Paulinist Lutheran...you know the hierarch there goes...Paul, Luther, Christ then God.... :-D. Jeez Bick, believe me, I'm scrutinizing Paul very heavily these days, of course I'm reading him carefully....

No where does Paul preach 'Sin all you want, as long as you have faith you are in'.

Paul of the Letters appears to preach Torah negation, does he not? Of course that's what Christianity boils down to....Man doesn't want to obey God's law, so someone had to invent a way to get around that...."Faith without works" accomplishs that purpose. Ever hear of "Once Saved Always Saved"? It's a very popular false theology....

Of course, we are saved by faith, justified, declared righteous. And this is true for all humanity; just as Habakuk declared in chapt.2 verse 4: "The Just shall live by Faith."

Who are the Just?...hint: Torah abiders.........

Look what Paul writes in Rom.6:1,2: "What, then, shall we declare? That we may be persisting in sin that grace should be increasing? May it not be coming to that! We who died to sin, how shall we still be living in it?" CV

Good question....Hey Bick, since becoming a Christian, when was the last time you sinned?

All for now, Bick

Hey Bick...are you really going to bust my chops about the Christian/Nazarene statement?

 

[Bick]

Not another anti-Saul thread>

Hi George. First of all I apologize for asserting you were ignorant of Paul's epistles. You pointed out you were quite familiar with them.

Yes, it makes a difference to limit Nazarenes to Israel/Judea area. Because, as the scriptures read, there were both Jewish and Gentile believers being called "Christians" in Antioch.

Next, you say, "who are the just?....hint: Torah abiders....." Well, George, God, who knows the hearts of men declares "there is none righteous, no not one". Only Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, as He says He came to do. All other humans fall short when they are attempting to keep them to achieve righteousness and life.

Now, once a person believes what God through Christ has provided, that is our salvation, then we are directed to do good deeds, and the then commandments are wonderful guides. But, as a believer, God's love is shed into my heart, and I am able to love my neighbor as myself, which is fulfilling the law.

George, are these ideas your own? For instance, "Man doesn't want to obey God's law, so someone had to invent a way to get around that...'Faith without works' accomplishes that purpose."

You seem to forget that "The just shall live by faith" is from Hab. 2:4, centuries before Jesus first advent and the later calling of Paul. Before the term "Christian" was penned.

George, I feel for you, hearing you say believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but that is not enough. You must help work your way into the kingdom.
And, I am praying for you, that you might understand that salvation, righteousness, life to come, is all from God. Faith comes by hearing the word. Man's ability to believe comes from God.

Yes, I sin daily, for I am a sinner, but saved by grace. Whether I have bad thoughts that suddenly some in, or neglect to do a kind deed, I sin. That is my walk on this earth as a Christian. But I believe that my standing before God, in Christ, is I am justified, "just as if I'd never sinned". And there are many other blessings 'in Christ' that God is preparing for the Church/body of Christ. Read Ephesians. And do we in the Church/Body get away with anything? No, for we must stand before the bema seat of Christ in the heavens, to give account of our deeds, as believers, here on earth.
There will, indeed be a loss of rewards and praise, I'm sure.

So, your goal may be to see the Messianic Kingdom on earth, but what will be prepared in the heavens for the Church/Body will far surpass the blessings on earth.

Bick

 

[jk0443124]

Re: Not another anti-Saul thread>

Hi George. First of all I apologize for asserting you were ignorant of Paul's epistles. You pointed out you were quite familiar with them.

Yes, it makes a difference to limit Nazarenes to Israel/Judea area. Because, as the scriptures read, there were both Jewish and Gentile believers being called "Christians" in Antioch.

Next, you say, "who are the just?....hint: Torah abiders....." Well, George, God, who knows the hearts of men declares "there is none righteous, no not one". Only Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, as He says He came to do. All other humans fall short when they are attempting to keep them to achieve righteousness and life.

Now, once a person believes what God through Christ has provided, that is our salvation, then we are directed to do good deeds, and the then commandments are wonderful guides. But, as a believer, God's love is shed into my heart, and I am able to love my neighbor as myself, which is fulfilling the law.

George, are these ideas your own? For instance, "Man doesn't want to obey God's law, so someone had to invent a way to get around that...'Faith without works' accomplishes that purpose."

You seem to forget that "The just shall live by faith" is from Hab. 2:4, centuries before Jesus first advent and the later calling of Paul. Before the term "Christian" was penned.

George, I feel for you, hearing you say believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but that is not enough. You must help work your way into the kingdom.
And, I am praying for you, that you might understand that salvation, righteousness, life to come, is all from God. Faith comes by hearing the word. Man's ability to believe comes from God.

Yes, I sin daily, for I am a sinner, but saved by grace. Whether I have bad thoughts that suddenly some in, or neglect to do a kind deed, I sin. That is my walk on this earth as a Christian. But I believe that my standing before God, in Christ, is I am justified, "just as if I'd never sinned". And there are many other blessings 'in Christ' that God is preparing for the Church/body of Christ. Read Ephesians. And do we in the Church/Body get away with anything? No, for we must stand before the bema seat of Christ in the heavens, to give account of our deeds, as believers, here on earth.
There will, indeed be a loss of rewards and praise, I'm sure.

So, your goal may be to see the Messianic Kingdom on earth, but what will be prepared in the heavens for the Church/Body will far surpass the blessings on earth.

Bick

Hello Bick - not sure if I am doing this correctly or not, I'm a first timer. I urge you to read the PDF file that George has mentioned. I would be really interested to see your thoughts. The author actually uses the Bible to test what Paul says. I too was very sceptical and apprehensive about reading the PDF as I myself was brought up a Lutheran and am very wary to read anything contrary to my beliefs. I am currently on Chapter 6 and must say it is some very interesting reading - worth a look.

 

[KaerbEmEvig]

OFFTOPIC: Georges, post this .pdf at http://www.filefront.com.

 

[Georges]

Re: Not another anti-Saul thread>

Hi George. First of all I apologize for asserting you were ignorant of Paul's epistles. You pointed out you were quite familiar with them.

No Apologies necessary my friend...I was a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran for many years....a dyed in the wool Paulinist Trinitarian...I know all of the arguments that everyone here has brought forth...I would have made the same arguments...At that time you couldn't convince me oherwise that the theological hierarchy (pecking order) was Luther, Paul, Christ, then God. So, since I as other Lutherans (like most Cathloprotestants) never dusted off the OT, I was/am well versed in Paul's epistles.

Yes, it makes a difference to limit Nazarenes to Israel/Judea area. Because, as the scriptures read, there were both Jewish and Gentile believers being called "Christians" in Antioch.

Next, you say, "who are the just?....hint: Torah abiders....." Well, George, God, who knows the hearts of men declares "there is none righteous, no not one".

Continually, no...but God gives a way for atonement every time you sin...repentance and return are the themes throughout the OT and Gospels...it's as simple as that....

This pretty much sums it up....

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Only Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, as He says He came to do. All other humans fall short when they are attempting to keep them to achieve righteousness and life.

Every man fall's short...no one can keep the law perfectly all of the time...but that's not the point...God knows that, that is why he gives means of atonement....even if it is as simple as the Psalm quoted above...Still that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for righteousness...

Now, once a person believes what God through Christ has provided, that is our salvation, then we are directed to do good deeds, and the then commandments are wonderful guides. But, as a believer, God's love is shed into my heart, and I am able to love my neighbor as myself, which is fulfilling the law.

Here we disagree (a little)...God saves us....Christ showed us how to obtain that...Christ was obedient to God in that he followed God's Law...Christ commanded us to do the same....

George, are these ideas your own?

No...and yes...Mine by the influence of many sources of information...I get the info...if it has merit and checks out, I use it. If not, I trash it...any good judge will listen to all the testimony before he makes a decision...anyone who listens to a testimony with biased ears has a long way to overcome any premisconceptions he has...fortunately for me, I was able to shed my Protestant bias and look at the info fairly and objectively...

For instance, "Man doesn't want to obey God's law, so someone had to invent a way to get around that...'Faith without works' accomplishes that purpose."

Did I say that...? If so, I misspoke. I think men who are interested in making God happy, follow God's Law....I think men who have their minds in the dark negate God's Law...or make it ineffective. I do think Paul gave a green light to sin, based on the "faith only" apology.


You seem to forget that "The just shall live by faith" is from Hab. 2:4, centuries before Jesus first advent and the later calling of Paul. Before the term "Christian" was penned.

No, I haven't forgotten it...as a matter of fact chap 11 of the pdf that I've sent to many people (except you, why?) deals with the very verse you quote...basically, Paul quotes the septuigent version of Hab 2:4. The Hebrew version reads differently...As a matter of fact, Paul quotes the Septuigent very frequently...which in many instances doesn't translate from the Hebrew very well. Paul's quotes of Hab and his Abraham/faith verses are formed from the septuigent rendering of that scripture, which is known to be faulty translation. LET ME SEND YOU THE PDF, IT WILL SAVE YOU ALL OF THIS TYPING...

George, I feel for you, hearing you say believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but that is not enough. You must help work your way into the kingdom.
And, I am praying for you, that you might understand that salvation, righteousness, life to come, is all from God. Faith comes by hearing the word. Man's ability to believe comes from God.

I understand that completely.....Salavation comes from God as you say...you respect God by following Torah....he'll take care of the rest. Simple as that..."Faith comes by hearing, Salvation comes from acting on what you've heard." You can quote me on that one.....

Yes, I sin daily, for I am a sinner, but saved by grace. Whether I have bad thoughts that suddenly some in, or neglect to do a kind deed, I sin. That is my walk on this earth as a Christian.

As it is all of ours.....

But I believe that my standing before God, in Christ, is I am justified, "just as if I'd never sinned".

The OT says that....repent and return, and your past sin's will not be remembered...Did Christ have to die for what was proclaimed in the OT? I don't really think so...God already established how atonement is achieved...Repent and return...it's still the main Jewish thought during their High Holy days....Huh...after all this time...they still have it right....in theory..

And there are many other blessings 'in Christ' that God is preparing for the Church/body of Christ. Read Ephesians. And do we in the Church/Body get away with anything? No, for we must stand before the bema seat of Christ in the heavens, to give account of our deeds, as believers, here on earth.
There will, indeed be a loss of rewards and praise, I'm sure.

So, your goal may be to see the Messianic Kingdom on earth, but what will be prepared in the heavens for the Church/Body will far surpass the blessings on earth.

Well Bick....since believers will be here on earth for the Messianic Kingdom...which should be just around the corner, there won't be too much time spent in heaven....we are nearing the end of the 6000 years heading into the 1000 year Messianic Millennium...

Bick

Bick...me in red...