Now There Are Diversities Of Gifts, But The Same Spirit.

[Carry_Your_Name]

There are evil spirits .

There are angels fallen and angels that did not fall .

Unless you have some scripture that tells us that fallen angels turn into evil spirits , fallen angels and evil spirits are not the same .

What scripture do you have to prove that they are NOT the same? Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, his flesh is the Holy Spirit's physical entity; in what physical entity do these fallen angels manifest themselves? These angels are cast down to earth (Rev. 12:9), roaming with Satan (Job 1:6), and will be judged (Jude 1:6), there's no confusion in that matter.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

We are simply not told where the evil spirits will go . Could the evil spirits return from whence they came from ? Remember we are not told where evil spirits come from in the Bible .

Yes we are. God is spirit, so are the sons of God.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” (Job 1:6-7)

Ahh , I see you will send them to the Lake of Fire through a process of elimination of where they can't go , could work I suppose .

The burden of proof is on you. Show me where they can go in the new heaven and new earth, anywhere other than the Lake of Fire.

anyone=person , I got that from here . I was not talking about the trinity

Neither was I, but you're the one asking for "another definition", I gave you a biblical one, according to which a spirit is a person.

 

[hawkman]

Show me where they can go in the new heaven and new earth, anywhere other than the Lake of Fire.

Do you know we are not told everything in the Bible . We are not told where evil spirits come from or where they are going . Lake of fire could be where they go but I am not certain of it but you are welcome to believe that is where they are going .

What scripture do you have to prove that they are NOT the same?

Think about it , if they were the same why don't we have one name for them in the Bible like "Satan's crew " ? Instead we have evil spirits and we have fallen angels , two names for two different things .

Fallen angels in action , Daniel Chapter 10 . Remember Jesus told us evil spirts walk .

The prince of Grecia and the prince of Persia are fallen angels . They battle God's angels .

Daniel 10

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

2In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

3I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

4And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;

5Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

9Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

10And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Do you know we are not told everything in the Bible . We are not told where evil spirits come from or where they are going . Lake of fire could be where they go but I am not certain of it but you are welcome to believe that is where they are going .

Of course not, the bible is sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself. However, just because something's not explicitly stated and explained in the bible doesn't mean it's made up. We have a brain to connect the dots and make logical conclusions based on what's explicitly stated and explained in the bible, that's the gift of discernment. Ignorance is not strength.

And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25)

Think about it , if they were the same why don't we have one name for them in the Bible like "Satan's crew " ? Instead we have evil spirits and we have fallen angels , two names for two different things .

Fallen angels in action , Daniel Chapter 10 . Remember Jesus told us evil spirts walk .

The prince of Grecia and the prince of Persia are fallen angels . They battle God's angels .

The difference between an angel and its spirit is the difference between heaven and earth. Angels are in heaven with celestial bodies, spirits are their presence on earth, but an angel and its spirit are the same being, not different ones, as much as you and your avatar on this forum is of the same person, your avatar "hawkman" is your online presence.

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

In Revelation, seven angels are put in charge of seven churches, but it is their seven spirits that are sent over all the earth. Jesus judged spirits when he was on earth in a terrrestial body, he judged angels when he was in heaven in a celestial body, as Apostle John saw in his vision.

The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands (seven spirits) which you saw are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20)

And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. (Rev. 4:5)

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. (Rev. 5:6)

 

[Free]

The difference between an angel and its spirit is the difference between heaven and earth. Angels are in heaven with celestial bodies, spirits are their presence on earth, but an angel and its spirit are the same being, not different ones,

Where is this stated or implied in Scripture?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where is this stated or implied in Scripture?

I’ve already shown the verses, there’re seven angels of the seven churches, and there’re seven spirits of the seven churches, those seven spirits are sent over all the earth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where is this stated or implied in Scripture?

If you still don't get it, read Rev. 1:20 and 4:5 again carefully. Both the seven angels and the seven spirits are of the SAME seven churches, not fourteen churches. Those seven angels are seven divine creatures in heaven, not seven faith leaders or archbishops, as some pastors or doctrines might have taught.

 

[Free]

I’ve already shown the verses, there’re seven angels of the seven churches, and there’re seven spirits of the seven churches, those seven spirits are sent over all the earth.

Except that the verses do not show that the seven angels have spirits nor that there are seven spirits of the seven churches. You have only said so and not shown so, although you do seem to be trying to make connections between verses which will be difficult to sustain.

Rev 1:11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
...
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
...
Rev 1:20 As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. (ESV)

Verse 20 is pretty clear—stars are not lampstands and angels aren’t churches. There is also nothing about spirits, never mind spirits of angels.

If you still don't get it, read Rev. 1:20 and 4:5 again carefully. Both the seven angels and the seven spirits are of the SAME seven churches, not fourteen churches. Those seven angels are seven divine creatures in heaven, not seven faith leaders or archbishops, as some pastors or doctrines might have taught.

Rev 4:5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, (ESV)

The “seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God.” What does that have to do with “the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches”?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Except that the verses do not show that the seven angels have spirits nor that there are seven spirits of the seven churches. You have only said so and not shown so, although you do seem to be trying to make connections between verses which will be difficult to sustain.

Then you're denying what the bible states. The seven lamps symbolize seven churches, and those SAME seven lamps are the seven Spirits of God. There're no evidence that indicates those are seven different lamps in the throne room. This is a basic principle of bible hermaneutics - let the Scripture interpret itself, it's all about making connections. If some word or phrase is puzzling or nonsensical, go search the same word or phrase somewhere else in the bible, then use that meaning to explain it in its original context where you find it puzzling or nonsensical. It's all about making connections. If you don't make connection, then there's no point to discuss any Scripture.

The seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20)

Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. (Rev. 4:5)

 

[Free]

Then you're denying what the bible states. The seven lamps symbolize seven churches, and those are the seven Spirits of God. There're no evidence that indicates those are seven different lamos in the throne room. This is a basic principle of bible hermaneutics - let the Scripture interpret itself. If you don't make connection, then there's no point to discuss any Scripture.

The seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20)

Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. (Rev. 4:5)

Those are not the same—lampstands are lampstands and torches are torches. You cannot simply equate the two without proving that they are the same. Given that two different Greek words are used—luchnia in 1:20 (candlestick, lampstand) and lampas (lamp, torch) in 4:5–such an assumption is unwarranted.

Not to mention that you’re using some very figurative and symbolic language to come up with a doctrine that is not clearly taught or even implied anywhere else. This is why so many people get into trouble with Revelation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Those are not the same—lampstands are lampstands and torches are torches. You cannot simply equate the two without proving that they are the same. Given that two different Greek words are used—luchnia in 1:20 (candlestick, lampstand) and lampas (lamp, torch) in 4:5–such an assumption is unwarranted.

Not to mention that you’re using some very figurative and symbolic language to come up with a doctrine that is not clearly taught or even implied anywhere else. This is why so many people get into trouble with Revelation.

NKJV reads seven LAMPS, not "torches", the flame is the same flame which symbolizes the spirit, that's a consistent narrative throughout the whole bible. If our body is a temple of the spirit, then the spirit is the holy flame burning inside. People get into trouble with Revelation because they don't read the previous books, I said it many times, it's like skipping to epilogue without reading any previous chapters or skipping to the finale without watching any previous episodes.

 

[Free]

NKJV reads seven LAMPS, not "torches",

I gave that definition. How is that relevant?

the flame is the same flame which symbolizes the spirit,

Based on what, exactly? How are lampstands the same as lamps?

that's a consistent narrative throughout the whole bible. If our body is a temple of the spirit, then the spirit is the holy flame burning inside.

And how is this relevant to either Rev 1:20 or 4:5?

People get into trouble with Revelation because they don't read the previous books, I said it many times, it's like skipping to epilogue without reading any previous chapters or skipping to the finale without watching any previous episodes.

And, yet, it is unwarranted to equate two different words. Again, you’re using some very figurative and symbolic language to come up with a doctrine that is not clearly taught or even implied anywhere else.

Perhaps it's better to think of lampstands as holding lamps, that is, the churches providing the light of the Holy Spirit, or of Christ, to the world. Something like that would make much more sense of the passages, if one were so inclined to try and put Rev 1:20 together with 4:5. Of course, one would still have to provide justification for doing so and as of this moment, I cannot see any. Certainly not just because "sevens" are mentioned.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I gave that definition. How is that relevant?

You didn't seem to have given a biblical definition. Show me the word's biblical, historical and cultural references. Without which, how is your definition relevant? If you dig in further, you'd know that "candlestick" or "lampstand" is specifically referring to a seven-branched Jewish menorah, not a European style candlestick or lampstand, its design is laid out in Ex. 25:31-40. You're not gonna find any of that in your Greek lexicon.

Based on what, exactly? How are lampstands the same as lamps?

On the common sense that it's the same flame burning, and lamps are integral parts of a lampstand. You said it yourself, "lampstands as holding lamps".

And how is this relevant to either Rev 1:20 or 4:5?

How is it not? What's burning and illuminating in either a torch or a lamp?

And, yet, it is unwarranted to equate two different words. Again, you’re using some very figurative and symbolic language to come up with a doctrine that is not clearly taught or even implied anywhere else.

The entire book of Revelation is written in "some very figurative and symbolic language", if you don't like it, throw the book away and forget about it. What's wrong about angels being spirits? It is written, "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Eph. 6:12). Principalities, powers, along with thrones and dominions are angelic ranks, they're evil spirits, not flesh and blood.

Perhaps it's better to think of lampstands as holding lamps, that is, the churches providing the light of the Holy Spirit, or of Christ, to the world. Something like that would make much more sense of the passages, if one were so inclined to try and put Rev 1:20 together with 4:5. Of course, one would still have to provide justification for doing so and as of this moment, I cannot see any. Certainly not just because "sevens" are mentioned.

I've pointed out that Jesus was not addressing to seven faith leaders or archbishops, but seven ANGELS of the seven churches. If those seven spirits in the seven lamps in Rev. 4:5 are different and separate, then tell me, what's burning in the seven lampstands? What's Jesus's point when he warned to remove the Ephesian church's lampstand (Rev. 2:5), if there's nothing burning in it, or a different, separate kind of spirit burning in it?

 

[Free]

You didn't seem to have given a biblical definition. Show me the word's biblical, historical and cultural references. Without which, how is your definition relevant? If you dig in further, you'd know that "candlestick" or "lampstand" is specifically referring to a seven-branched Jewish menorah, not a European style candlestick or lampstand, its design is laid out in Ex. 25:31-40. You're not gonna find any of that in your Greek lexicon.

Why do you expect me to do something you didn't do?

On the common sense that it's the same flame burning, and lamps are integral parts of a lampstand. You said it yourself, "lampstands as holding lamps".

Yes, a lampstand holds lamps, that is precisely why it is called a lampstand. Lamps are not the lampstand.

Exo 37:17 He also made the lampstand of pure gold. He made the lampstand of hammered work. Its base, its stem, its cups, its calyxes, and its flowers were of one piece with it.
…
Exo 37:23 And he made its seven lamps and its tongs and its trays of pure gold. (ESV)

Notice that the lamps are separate from the lampstand.

How is it not? What's burning and illuminating in either a torch or a lamp?

Again, how is it relevant to either Rev 1:20 or 4:5? You're trying to make connections based on . . . something, and then your supporting argument is "How is it not?," but that will not do. You must show how they are connected.

The entire book of Revelation is written in "some very figurative and symbolic language", if you don't like it, throw the book away and forget about it.

Because I said Revelation uses figurative and symbolic language, that somehow implies I don’t like it? How does one come to such a conclusion?

What's wrong about angels being spirits? It is written, "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Eph. 6:12). Principalities, powers, along with thrones and dominions are angelic ranks, they're evil spirits, not flesh and blood.

Where did I ever say anything was wrong with that and when was that ever a part of our discussion? See what you're doing--you're changing the initial argument that I was addressing, which was:

"The difference between an angel and its spirit is the difference between heaven and earth. Angels are in heaven with celestial bodies, spirits are their presence on earth, but an angel and its spirit are the same being,"

That is nowhere taught in Scripture, that I can see. But, you are saying that angels are spirits who have spirits that can exist separately from themselves. That’s the issue I am trying to get you to address and provide evidence for.

I've pointed out that Jesus was not addressing to seven faith leaders or archbishops, but seven ANGELS of the seven churches.

There is one main issue with this: it means the angels are in sin by leading these churches in their sin, apart from one. That is an odd position to take—that angels of God are sinful and lead others in sin.

It’s worth bearing in mind that the Greek word for “angel” also means “messenger.” Contextually, “angels” here most likely refers to the leaders of these churches.

If those seven spirits in the seven lamps in Rev. 4:5 are different and separate, then tell me, what's burning in the seven lampstands?

The Bible doesn’t say, but there are some things we should consider. First, Jesus’s clear words that “the seven lampstands are the seven churches.” Second, the purpose of lampstands—to hold lamps so that light is provided. Third, believers are said to be the light of the world and are not to hide that light but let it shine (Matt 5:14-16).

So, again, it could be, and most likely is, a metaphor for these churches providing the light of Christ (John 1:9) to the world.

What's Jesus's point when he warned to remove the Ephesian church's lampstand (Rev. 2:5), if there's nothing burning in it, or a different, separate kind of spirit burning in it?

It likely means Jesus would bring an end to that church and it would cease to give light to Ephesus.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why do you expect me to do something you didn't do?

I did give a valid biblical reference of lamps and lampstand, you didn’t.

Notice that the lamps are separate from the lampstand.

No they’re not, seven lamps are the seven cups of the lampstand, the verse says he made ITS seven lamps.

You must show how they are connected.

Are the seven lamps connected to the lampstand through seven branches? Yes or no?

Because I said Revelation uses figurative and symbolic language, that somehow implies I don’t like it? How does one come to such a conclusion?

No you didn’t say that, you were accusing me of using figurative and symbolic language.

That is nowhere taught in Scripture, that I can see. But, you are saying that angels are spirits who have spirits that can exist separately from themselves. That’s the issue I am trying to get you to address and provide evidence for.

Does the Scripture teach that angels are in heaven? Called “heavenly hosts”, in both OT and NT? If spirits can’t exist separately from themselves, then what was Jesus’s exorcism about? What about all the teachings of unclean spirits? What are those and where did they come from?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is one main issue with this: it means the angels are in sin by leading these churches in their sin, apart from one. That is an odd position to take—that angels of God are sinful and lead others in sin.

It’s worth bearing in mind that the Greek word for “angel” also means “messenger.” Contextually, “angels” here most likely refers to the leaders of these churches.

That's not an odd position, that's what the Scripture plainly states. It is written that God's people will be judging angels - not any church leaders, and evil angels who sinned will be punished - again, not church leaders, and that's what the Lord himself is doing. He gave those angels stark warnings in those seven letters before the final day of judgement. If you insist that all of the angels references below are talking about church leaders, then so be it, you're entitled to your opinion and see everybody else's as "odd".

Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor. 6:3)

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2 Pt. 2:4)

Angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day (Jude 1:6)

The Bible doesn’t say, but there are some things we should consider. First, Jesus’s clear words that “the seven lampstands are the seven churches.” Second, the purpose of lampstands—to hold lamps so that light is provided. Third, believers are said to be the light of the world and are not to hide that light but let it shine (Matt 5:14-16).

So, again, it could be, and most likely is, a metaphor for these churches providing the light of Christ (John 1:9) to the world.

But haven't you adamantly reiterated that the lamps and the lampstand are separate? On one hand, "a lampstand holds lamps," on the other, "lamps are separate from the lampstand." So are these lamps floating in the air, hovering above the lampstand or what? You're contradicting yourself, and you're spiritualizing the Scripture into something you want it to be.

It likely means Jesus would bring an end to that church and it would cease to give light to Ephesus.

And why does that matter? According to you, lamps are lamps, lampstands are lampstands, the light from the lamp is separate from the lampstand, nowhere in Rev. 2:1-7 says the lampstand is supposed to give light to Ephesus, so "how is that relevant?" "That is nowhere taught in Scripture", right?

 

[Free]

I did give a valid biblical reference of lamps and lampstand, you didn’t.

Yes, I did, HERE.

No they’re not, seven lamps are the seven cups of the lampstand, the verse says he made ITS seven lamps.

Yes, I know what it says; I quoted it.

Are the seven lamps connected to the lampstand through seven branches? Yes or no?

You stated: "If our body is a temple of the spirit, then the spirit is the holy flame burning inside."

I asked: "And how is this relevant to either Rev 1:20 or 4:5?"

You responded: "How is it not? What's burning and illuminating in either a torch or a lamp?"

I responded: "Again, how is it relevant to either Rev 1:20 or 4:5? You're trying to make connections based on . . . something, and then your supporting argument is "How is it not?," but that will not do. You must show how they are connected."

So, in context, I’m clearly talking about making connections between the Rev 1:20 and 4:5, not how lamps are connected to the lampstand.

No you didn’t say that, you were accusing me of using figurative and symbolic language.

Not at all. What I stated was, "Again, you’re using some very figurative and symbolic language to come up with a doctrine that is not clearly taught or even implied anywhere else." The context is the book of Revelation, specifically, the verses you are trying to use to support your initial claim. I was clearly saying you were relying on figurative and symbolic language to make a doctrine that is not stated anywhere in Scripture.

Does the Scripture teach that angels are in heaven? Called “heavenly hosts”, in both OT and NT?

Obviously.

If spirits can’t exist separately from themselves, then what was Jesus’s exorcism about? What about all the teachings of unclean spirits? What are those and where did they come from?

You can’t be serious with these questions.

That's not an odd position, that's what the Scripture plainly states.

No, it doesn't and you haven't shown it to be the case.

It is written that God's people will be judging angels - not any church leaders, and evil angels who sinned will be punished - again, not church leaders, and that's what the Lord himself is doing. He gave those angels stark warnings in those seven letters before the final day of judgement. If you insist that all of the angels references below are talking about church leaders, then so be it, you're entitled to your opinion and see everybody else's as "odd".

Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor. 6:3)

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2 Pt. 2:4)

Angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day (Jude 1:6)

But haven't you adamantly reiterated that the lamps and the lampstand are separate? On one hand, "a lampstand holds lamps," on the other, "lamps are separate from the lampstand." So are these lamps floating in the air, hovering above the lampstand or what? You're contradicting yourself, and you're spiritualizing the Scripture into something you want it to be.

And why does that matter? According to you, lamps are lamps, lampstands are lampstands, the light from the lamp is separate from the lampstand, nowhere in Rev. 2:1-7 says the lampstand is supposed to give light to Ephesus, so "how is that relevant?" "That is nowhere taught in Scripture", right?

I'm going to back out of this discussion. There are too many issues to address as you are not following this discussion and making too many unwarranted assumptions about what Scripture says.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, I did, HERE.

No you didn't. You just posted definitions of the Greek words, it was I who posted its biblical reference.

Yes, I know what it says; I quoted it.

No you didn't. You were treating them as seven separate items.

So, in context, I’m clearly talking about making connections between the Rev 1:20 and 4:5, not how lamps are connected to the lampstand.

Since lamps are connected to the lampstand, the lamps in Rev. 4:5 are connected to the lampstand in Rev 1:20. You have no scripture to prove that those are not connected. You said the lampstand is holding the "light", then what is that light? Christ is the light of the world, and the seven spirits burning in the seven lamps are explicitly identified as seven spirits of God, also seven spirits of the Lamb (Rev. 5:6), so burning in those seven lamps is the light of Christ; but according to you, Rev 1:20 has nothing to do with 4:5, then it must be some other kind of light the lampstand's holding, right? Care to enlight me on what that is?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Not at all. What I stated was, "Again, you’re using some very figurative and symbolic language to come up with a doctrine that is not clearly taught or even implied anywhere else." The context is the book of Revelation, specifically, the verses you are trying to use to support your initial claim. I was clearly saying you were relying on figurative and symbolic language to make a doctrine that is not stated anywhere in Scripture.

It is stated in Eph. 6:12 that angels are heavenly hosts and spiritual creatures, as opposed to physical and material entities on earth, that's just a biblical fact, not any kind of "doctrine" or "claim". You're denying and overreacting.

Obviously.

Not to you, or you wouldn't have asked in such an irritating and combative manner.

You can’t be serious with these questions.

Why not? In my original post I simply said angels are heavenly creatures and their spirits are on earth, and according to 1 Cor. 15:40, there's celestial body for heaven, there's terrestrial body for earth, again, just a biblical fact, not any kind of "doctrine". I'm as serious as you are with your own contradicting claims of lampstand holding lamps and yet they are separate.

No, it doesn't and you haven't shown it to be the case.

Then what is the case? Are those three mentions in those three verses I quoted all referring to pastors? Yes or no? What Scripture evidence or any evidence to you have to back your preconceived "orthodox" position, that those are seven church leaders?

I'm going to back out of this discussion. There are too many issues to address as you are not following this discussion and making too many unwarranted assumptions about what Scripture says.

You're the one who's dropping contradicting statement that lamps are disconnected from the lampstand just for the sake of making an argument, along with an unwarranted assumption that seven angels are seven church leaders. And I was talking to hawkman, I never intended to have any discussion with you. If you wanna have a meaningful discussion, try not to dissect other people's post into small sentences and reply one by one.