"Nudity (or near nudity) is justified under the name of art"... how to counter?

[Ace1234]

A:

Actually, compared with the nations around, the Hebrew Bible honored women and treated them with far more respect.

Your comments on the Divine authorship of Scripture isn't something that Christians would agree with you on, either.

You better study levitical law, one can hardly state it was fair to women.

I am not concerned with others, but comparitive tribal studies show must treated women about the same, although some cultures did give them higher status and even power.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
†. Hab 2:15 . . Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.

The way I see it; the Lord isn't condemning nudity in that passage, but rather, condemning the vile practice of getting somebody so plastered they don't know up from down so you can make sport of them and cause them untold humiliation.

I think that same principle would apply to certain kinds of date rape where guys deliberately get girls wiped out on party drugs like ecstasy and such to break down their natural inhibitions; thus making it much, much easier to get in their pants and/or take compromising photographs of them that can then be put online for everybody to see.

Cliff
/

 

[elijah23]

Or perhaps it's falsely interpreted as sin because of the generations of Christians who have passed down this (and other) interpretation without really reading the text thoroughly for the true meaning. They're told that nudity is a sin because it's common Christian thought.

It is a sin to look lustfully on another person (Matt 5:28). If you can look at an attractive naked person without experiencing lust, you are a better person than I. And why would you WANT to look at an attractive naked person of the opposite sex if you weren’t married to that person?

 

[farouk]

A1234:

Put differently, 'if only' secularism ruled okay, then the Bible wouldn't influence people badly. Really? This is utter false and ahistorical.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God as my witness, I see nothing wrong with nudity in and of itself. Rather the problem lies within myself and a defiled conscience. There is beauty and ugliness. I must learn to look past that and see a person.

Of course there is nothing wrong with nudity in and of itself. But it's like food. Nothing wrong with food in and of itself, until you help yourself to someone's food you're not entitled to enjoy. Same with nudity. There is nudity that you are entitled to indulge and enjoy...and there is nudity that you are not entitled to indulge and enjoy...namely the nudity of a person who is not your spouse.

 

[cyberjosh]

You're on the right track. Art is too often an excuse to gaze on the nakedness of someone not your spouse.

Many years ago when discussing this topic with an unmarried young man in our church a wise gentlemen shared the verse about getting people drunk so you could look on their nakeditity (as Radar would say, lol) and used it as the Biblical support for not looking at a naked person you are not married to, outside of a legitimate profession, like medicine, for example (I believe it was Josh that shared the verse already in this thread).

Art is too often just a vehicle or excuse, like drinking alcohol, that people use to create circumstances to indulge sinful appetites for nudity. Not categorically, because some people truly have been jaded by the sin of viewing pornography and are unmoved by seeing naked people in non-sexual activities. But for the rest of us, probably in the majority, it's just plain wrong to choose to gaze on a naked person we are not married to. And may God have mercy on those who just think they aren't moved by the mere image of a naked person not their spouse. God knows the truth.

Amen! My dad would also agree with you about such "art" often providing an excuse. My grandfather started a business in partnership with a man from Germany back in the 70s (still going on today), although that man recently died (and unfortunatly I don't think he ever believed in Jesus), and he had a sizeable art collection at his home in Germany (I am told) and most of it was of nude women. I recall this being told to my dad one time, of something to the effect that it seemed this man's artistic taste was 'cultured', and my dad said it just sounded like an excuse to him to have naked women on his walls.

And you are very right: God knows the truth!

After everything we say in this thread about the topic, that is truly the final word on the matter.

 

[cyberjosh]

Emphasis mine:

Of course there is nothing wrong with nudity in and of itself. But it's like food. Nothing wrong with food in and of itself, until you help yourself to someone's food you're not entitled to enjoy. Same with nudity. There is nudity that you are entitled to indulge and enjoy...and there is nudity that you are not entitled to indulge and enjoy...namely the nudity of a person who is not your spouse.

That is exactly what I said in this post:

"So unless it is yours to look upon (morally right only in matrimony) do not do so, is the command."

 

[cyberjosh]

It is a sin to look lustfully on another person (Matt 5:28). If you can look at an attractive naked person without experiencing lust, you are a better person than I. And why would you WANT to look at an attractive naked person of the opposite sex if you weren’t married to that person?

I have been asking that same WHY question this entire thread.

Let's at least admit where the lines ARE NOT fuzzy: inside matrimony. Seems like a strong tower of refuge to me, so why dally outside the walls (like Samson, in the Philistines' territory) just to see how far we can push it? And for the sake of those outside the Church who judge us by our actions and what they see us do and approve of, should we not even avoid the appearance of evil?

"Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you" (2 Corinthians 6:17).

 

[childeye]

Of course there is nothing wrong with nudity in and of itself. But it's like food. Nothing wrong with food in and of itself, until you help yourself to someone's food you're not entitled to enjoy. Same with nudity. There is nudity that you are entitled to indulge and enjoy...and there is nudity that you are not entitled to indulge and enjoy...namely the nudity of a person who is not your spouse.

Respectfully, I do not see food as a fair analogy. My point is that there is both ugliness and beauty of body in varying degrees. I do not expect my spouse to tell me I look great when I am fat, wrinkled, bald and flabby. Nor do I honestly indulge in any nudity that is grotesque. Pride is apparrant whether I flaunt the glory of my youth or hide from the reproach of others in my waning years. But where pride is destroyed is in seeing the full spectrum of our foolishness in ever giving credence to any form of pride. To see what is important and eternal, was that we were loved and loved others despite beauty or ugliness.

We can see that when we ate of the knowledge of good and evil, we saw we were naked. But we did not proudly walk naked, we were ashamed and hid from God our maker who knew us more intimately than we know ourselves. This was an undeserved slight upon God Who never loved us for any corrupt reason. The point is, God just loves, and through the knowledge of good and evil we have become judgmental in the direction of self-destruction.

 

[farouk]

Respectfully, I do not see food as a fair analogy. My point is that there is both ugliness and beauty of body in varying degrees. I do not expect my spouse to tell me I look great when I am fat, wrinkled, bald and flabby. Nor do I honestly indulge in any nudity that is grotesque. Pride is apparrant whether I flaunt the glory of my youth or hide from the reproach of others in my waning years. But where pride is destroyed is in seeing the full spectrum of our foolishness in ever giving credence to any form of pride. To see what is important and eternal, was that we were loved and loved others despite beauty or ugliness.

We can see that when we ate of the knowledge of good and evil, we saw we were naked. But we did not proudly walk naked, we were ashamed and hid from God our maker who knew us more intimately than we know ourselves. This was an undeserved slight upon God Who never loved us for any corrupt reason. The point is, God just loves, and through the knowledge of good and evil we have become judgmental in the direction of self-destruction.

God indeed loves; indeed, His love to dying sinners in sending His Son to be the Savior is the greatest expression of love that there could ever be.

But as well as loving in a supreme way, God also cannot look upon sin. And so His followers also need to show wisdom and discretion in what they do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Respectfully, I do not see food as a fair analogy. My point is that there is both ugliness and beauty of body in varying degrees. I do not expect my spouse to tell me I look great when I am fat, wrinkled, bald and flabby. Nor do I honestly indulge in any nudity that is grotesque. Pride is apparrant whether I flaunt the glory of my youth or hide from the reproach of others in my waning years. But where pride is destroyed is in seeing the full spectrum of our foolishness in ever giving credence to any form of pride. To see what is important and eternal, was that we were loved and loved others despite beauty or ugliness.

We can see that when we ate of the knowledge of good and evil, we saw we were naked. But we did not proudly walk naked, we were ashamed and hid from God our maker who knew us more intimately than we know ourselves. This was an undeserved slight upon God Who never loved us for any corrupt reason. The point is, God just loves, and through the knowledge of good and evil we have become judgmental in the direction of self-destruction.

I'm not really following what you're saying.

All I'm saying it's not okay to look at the nudity of someone that does not belong to you in a marital relationship, just as it is not okay to eat someone else's food that you are not lawfully allowed to eat. Did you know the Bible uses eating food as an analogy for sexual activity?

 

[childeye]

=Jethro Bodine;619586]I'm not really following what you're saying.

What I'm trying to say is there is nothing wrong with nudity except to a defiled conscious.

All I'm saying it's not okay to look at the nudity of someone that does not belong to you in a marital relationship,

I believe I understand your point. You are saying it would be hurtful to my wife if I looked at the beauty of another woman so as to desire the other over her. Yet Jesus said it is impossible for a man to not do this, but possible for God to make a man able to not lust in such a manner. It is therefore possible to look at another woman in nudity and not lust is what I take that to mean.

just as it is not okay to eat someone else's food that you are not lawfully allowed to eat.

This reminds me more of looking at another man's wife.

Did you know the Bible uses eating food as an analogy for sexual activity?

I wouldn't be surprised. Please, put forth the scripture to which you are referring.

 

[Stormcrow]

If you can look at an attractive naked person without experiencing lust, you are a better person than I.

So it's settled then: ask your instructors for ugly models. :yes

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did you know the Bible uses eating food as an analogy for sexual activity?

I wouldn't be surprised. Please, put forth the scripture to which you are referring.

20 “This is the way of an adulteress:
She eats and wipes her mouth
and says, ‘I’ve done nothing wrong.’ (Proverbs 30:20 NIV1984)


"...26 for the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread,
and the adulteress preys upon your very life.
27 Can a man scoop fire into his lap
without his clothes being burned?
28 Can a man walk on hot coals
without his feet being scorched?
29 So is he who sleeps with another man’s wife;
no one who touches her will go unpunished.
30 Men do not despise a thief if he steals
to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
31 Yet if he is caught, he must pay sevenfold,
though it costs him all the wealth of his house.
32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment;
whoever does so destroys himself." (Proverbs 6:26-32 NIV1984)


13 The woman Folly is loud;
she is undisciplined and without knowledge.
16 “Let all who are simple come in here!â€
she says to those who lack judgment.
17 “Stolen water is sweet;
food eaten in secret is delicious!â€
18 But little do they know that the dead are there,
that her guests are in the depths of the grave. (Proverbs 9:13,16-18 NIV1984)


15 Drink water from your own cistern,
running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.
20 Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress?
Why embrace the bosom of another man’s wife?

21 For a man’s ways are in full view of the LORD,
and he examines all his paths. (Proverbs 5:15-21 NIV1984)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I'm trying to say is there is nothing wrong with nudity except to a defiled conscious.

No. Being aroused sexually by nudity is NOT the product of a defiled conscience. It's the way God made us. It's our God given reproductive impulse at work in us.

I believe I understand your point. You are saying it would be hurtful to my wife if I looked at the beauty of another woman so as to desire the other over her.

(...if you desire another woman in addition to your wife, too.)

It's not only hurtful to your wife. It's hurtful to the other woman and her spouse, if she has one. And it's hurtful to you (and God) when you defile God's temple when you entertain appetites you're not allowed to satisfy.

Yet Jesus said it is impossible for a man to not do this, but possible for God to make a man able to not lust in such a manner. It is therefore possible to look at another woman in nudity and not lust is what I take that to mean.

Why do you look at naked women other than your wife if it's not to enjoy the sexual nature of her naked body in some way?

 

[childeye]

God indeed loves; indeed, His love to dying sinners in sending His Son to be the Savior is the greatest expression of love that there could ever be.

But as well as loving in a supreme way, God also cannot look upon sin. And so His followers also need to show wisdom and discretion in what they do.

Of course you are correct. What gets to me is that scripture says, what is sin to one man is not sin to another. Hence one man might call it sin to look upon a womans ankle or foot and yet another would not. The whole woman could be covered from head to toe and yet one man might lust after even being next to her. Another man can grow up in a society not ever wearing clothes and think nothing of nudity, but look at clothes as a sin. Consequently, where is sin if not in a defiled conscience? Still, I agree with you that a person must do whatever is of faith, and that includes how I judge others who may not be sinning wherein I would be.

 

[childeye]

=Jethro Bodine;619834]No. Being aroused sexually by nudity is NOT the product of a defiled conscience. It's the way God made us. It's our God given reproductive impulse at work in us.

Respectfully, finding something wrong with someone when there is nothing wrong is the product of a defiled conscience. In some societies, people don't wear clothes at all. And in others, women must be covered from head to toe. How long or high must the hem of a skirt be before it becomes obscene nudity?

...if you desire another woman in addition to your wife, too.

You mean like Abraham, Jacob, Soloman and David?

It's not only hurtful to your wife. It's hurtful to the other woman and her spouse, if she has one. And it's hurtful to you (and God) when you defile God's temple when you entertain appetites you're not allowed to satisfy.

I don't disagree with you, but I think you again are missing my point with the above statement. So let me explain it this way. When men did not glorify God as God but reckoned themselves wise in vanity, they were unthankful for such wisdom as that which could only be given by God. For this reason God gave them over to vile passions and the lust of the flesh. Hence men became abominations. Not because they decided to entertain such appetites, but because they did not esteem God as God. So respectfully, your statement about lusts entertaining appetites that I am not allowed to satisfy, is somewhat lacking, since there is no such thing as satisfying such appetites, since they are never satisfied. They are torments therefore, that never cease so as to never allow any contentment.

Why do you look at naked women other than your wife if it's not to enjoy the sexual nature of her naked body in some way?

Well that is a tricky question isn't it? It supposes there is no option for man to do otherwise. Let's just say I accidentally walked into a bathroom and saw some beautiful lady with her skirt up. I would instantly avert my eyes and get out of there, begging forgiveness for seeing whatever I saw, because I did not mean to embarrass her or myself. This is in keeping with love your neighbor as yourself.

However, if I was being introduced to a beautiful naked aborigine woman, I would not avert my eyes from her nakedness nor apoligize and get out of there, because I wouldn't want to embarrass her or myself. This is also in keeping with love your neighbor as yourself.

So consequently, I wouldn't look at a naked woman to enjoy the sexual nature of her nakedness in such cases. But to address the intent of your question. I find nothing wrong with seeing beauty in nakedness but at one time in my youth, I did. Nor does a woman even need to be naked for me to enjoy the sexual nature of woman. In fact, I don't even need a woman to be aroused. Last time I looked, my male apparatus had no ears, so it does not hear me when I say stand down.

God knows this, and I know He knows that I know He knows. I shall not hide from Him lest I hide from myself. So speaking forthrightly, I have been married thirty-five years and am way past fooling myself that my wife doesn't notice there exist other men more physically or intellectually or sexually attractive than myself. Nor do I believe she is fooled if I claim that all women on earth are no match for her stunning beauty and un touchable charming character. We know, those things don't matter because True Love is not based upon those things. Hence there is no temptation since we've got the real deal...

P.S. I would not desire another man's wife, not because the bible says not to, but because I have too much respect for her husband. All good things, all virtues, are in the providence of Love. And the glory of this belongs to the grace of God. Without Him, we are all perverts.

 

[childeye]

20 “This is the way of an adulteress:
She eats and wipes her mouth
and says, ‘I’ve done nothing wrong.’ (Proverbs 30:20 NIV1984)


"...26 for the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread,
and the adulteress preys upon your very life.
27 Can a man scoop fire into his lap
without his clothes being burned?
28 Can a man walk on hot coals
without his feet being scorched?
29 So is he who sleeps with another man’s wife;
no one who touches her will go unpunished.
30 Men do not despise a thief if he steals
to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
31 Yet if he is caught, he must pay sevenfold,
though it costs him all the wealth of his house.
32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment;
whoever does so destroys himself." (Proverbs 6:26-32 NIV1984)


13 The woman Folly is loud;
she is undisciplined and without knowledge.
16 “Let all who are simple come in here!â€
she says to those who lack judgment.
17 “Stolen water is sweet;
food eaten in secret is delicious!â€
18 But little do they know that the dead are there,
that her guests are in the depths of the grave. (Proverbs 9:13,16-18 NIV1984)


15 Drink water from your own cistern,
running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.
20 Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress?
Why embrace the bosom of another man’s wife?

21 For a man’s ways are in full view of the LORD,
and he examines all his paths. (Proverbs 5:15-21 NIV1984)

Scripture says God made the stomach so men would be thankful for their food and drink. Thank God for the food that when eaten and drunk a man no longer hungers or thirsts ever again.

 

[farouk]

Scripture says God made the stomach so men would be thankful for their food and drink. Thank God for the food that when eaten and drunk a man no longer hungers or thirsts ever again.

Well, exactly.

The John 4 passage is very searching, yes.