Bible Study Numbers 12:1

[brother Paul]

Though there is controversy about whether this is Zipporah, I would say NO! Zipporah was a Midianite (of the line of shem) from the family of Jethro a Midianite priest and herdsman. This wife was Cushite (of the line of Ham) and they settled in Ethiopia. Long before Moses the Ethiopians identified themselves as Kushite (same thing).

What are your thoughts?

 

[Chopper]

Though there is controversy about whether this is Zipporah, I would say NO! Zipporah was a Midianite (of the line of shem) from the family of Jethro a Midianite priest and herdsman. This wife was Cushite (of the line of Ham) and they settled in Ethiopia. Long before Moses the Ethiopians identified themselves as Kushite (same thing).

What are your thoughts?

I tend to agree with you brother Paul. My guess is that Zipporah had already died and this Cushite woman was Moses' second wife. As a result, Miriam felt like she should have been the woman in Moses' life that was closest to him, not this Cushite woman.

There is, as you say, a controversy about this.

 

[for_his_glory]

Moses's wife was Zipporah, the daughter of Jethro who was a Kenite shepard and a priest of Midian. The two met in Midian after Moses fled there after killing an Egyptian that was beating a Hebrew. The two met at a well that Zipporah and her sisters used to water their flock. Moses rescued her and her sisters after other shepards came to the well and forced them away. Moses defended the girls and watered their flock. Jethro invited Moses to dinner and gave Zipporah to be his wife. Exodus 2:11-21.

God commanded Moses to return back to Egypt to free the Israelites, but first he married Zipporah and had children with her. As they were traveling back to Egypt they stayed at and Inn and God came to Moses to kill him causing Moses to become deathly ill because he failed to circumcise his son according to the Abrahamic Covenant and IMO probably for marring someone who worshipped other gods even though Jethro was from the bloodline of Abraham. Even though it was against the Midian pagan religion to circumcise, Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So God let him go. Then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. She did this in fear of Moses being killed. Exodus 4:24-26.

There is so much to learn about Moses, Zipporah and her father Jethro as you study Exodus.

 

[Nathan12]

I tend to agree with you brother Paul. My guess is that Zipporah had already died and this Cushite woman was Moses' second wife.

Zipporah may not have died but simply remained with her father Jethro. Midian refers to the northwestern portion of the Arabian peninsula, whereas Cush refers to Ethiopia in Africa. So the Ethiopian woman was the second wife of Moses.

 

[for_his_glory]

Zipporah was Moses's second wife. Tharbis was his first wife and according to Josephus she was a Cushite princess of the Kingdom of Kush. Her father was Merops. According to Josephus in Moses early adult life he had led the Egyptians in a campaign against invading Ethiopians and defeated him. While Moses was besieging the city of Meru Tharbis watched him lead the Egyptian army from within the walls and fell in love with him. Moses agreed to marry her if she would procure the deliverance of the city into his power. She did so and they were married.

After the war Moses sought to return to Egypt, but Tharbis insisted he remain in Ethiopia as her husband. Moses was skillful in astronomy and casting two rings, one which caused the wearer to become forgetful and the other causing one to remember all, he gave the first ring to Tharbis and he wore the second ring. Soon after she forgot her love for Moses and he returned to Egypt alone.

Zipporah was also identified with nations in Africa (Ethiopia, Egypt and Libya) so I believe Numbers 12:1 is speaking about Moses second wife Zipporah.

There is no mention of Tharbis in the Bible, but you can find more at en.m.wikipedia.org/Tharbis

 

[Nathan12]

Tharbis was his first wife and according to Josephus she was a Cushite princess of the Kingdom of Kush.

We can't put Josephus on the same level as the Holy Spirit. There's no Tharbis in the Bible. And Josephus wasn't there when Moses married.

 

[Chopper]

I'll stick to the biblical account of Moses' life partners thank you.

 

[for_his_glory]

We can't put Josephus on the same level as the Holy Spirit. There's no Tharbis in the Bible. And Josephus wasn't there when Moses married.

I never put Josephus on the same level of the Holy Spirit as I said according to him Tharbis was a Cushite princess of the Kingdom of Kush. I already stated that Tharbis is not found in the Bible, but that Zipporah is found in the book of Exodus. It's the biography that Tharbis was his first wife and also associated with Ethiopia. You have to go outside what is in scripture to study the history of certain people that are not mentioned in scripture.

 

[Chopper]

I never put Josephus on the same level of the Holy Spirit as I said according to him Tharbis was a Cushite princess of the Kingdom of Kush. I already stated that Tharbis is not found in the Bible, but that Zipporah is found in the book of Exodus. It's the biography that Tharbis was his first wife and also associated with Ethiopia. You have to go outside what is in scripture to study the history of certain people that are not mentioned in scripture.

Well Glory Girl, I mean no disrespect, I value your studies and presentations way to much for thinking ill of what you say. It's just that the only history that I trust is found in the Torah and Scripture as a whole....Secular history can be tweaked to miss-represent the truth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well Glory Girl, I mean no disrespect, I value your studies and presentations way to much for thinking ill of what you say. It's just that the only history that I trust is found in the Torah and Scripture as a whole....Secular history can be tweaked to miss-represent the truth.

I agree that secular history can twist things, but we also have to remember not all history is found in the scripture like dates, era culture and timelines of various wars that need further studying. Also IMO it might not have been note worthy to mention Tharbis like many other things not found in the Bible as many books were left out of the Cannon and some things are not note worthy.

I don't know how accurate the first century AD Josephus Flavius book "Antiquities of the Jews" is, but do we know all the facts about the early days of Moses.

 

[Nathan12]

...but do we know all the facts about the early days of Moses.

We do not need to know all the facts about the early days of Moses. God sums them up in a few words, since they are not critical. As for the life of Christ between the ages of 12 and 30, God is completely silent. Which means that we should also hold our peace.

Secular history is unreliable at best. But when we go to the Bible record, that is our primary source for what really matters. Even secular chronology was faulty, and Ptolemy's chronology as compared to Bible Chronology is off by 83 years.

 

[JohnDB]

The Josephus account is not scripture...but it does relate what was commonly believed to be true even if it really wasn't true.

Moses's second wife really stood out. Skin pigmentation alone would make her obviously different. Living in a group that rapidly becoming a caste based society. Even if she was married to the leader she would still feel like the odd person in the group.
Miriam got a temporary case of leprosy for harassing Moses so much. (She was an annoying wife and not very supportive)
But when living in the wilderness there weren't many choices available.

The cushite woman proved to be more Jewish than the Israelites were.

 

[Nathan12]

...She was an annoying wife and not very supportive...

Did you mean an "annoying sister"? Miriam the sister of Moses?

 

[Chopper]

I agree that secular history can twist things, but we also have to remember not all history is found in the scripture like dates, era culture and timelines of various wars that need further studying. Also IMO it might not have been note worthy to mention Tharbis like many other things not found in the Bible as many books were left out of the Cannon and some things are not note worthy.

I don't know how accurate the first century AD Josephus Flavius book "Antiquities of the Jews" is, but do we know all the facts about the early days of Moses.

Well said.

 

[JohnDB]

Did you mean an "annoying sister"? Miriam the sister of Moses?

No, I'm forgetting Moses's wife's name.
Not his sister... Miriam was out of the picture for the Exodus if I remember correctly. (Maybe I am not... been a while since I studied the Exodus)
But there's a verse somewhere that says "Moses was the most humble man in Israel" and the word used for "humble" could be "miserable" at the same time. And an annoying wife is misery.

Even the name for Egypt was changed in scripture from Egypt to Misery. It's translated back to Egypt when translated into English...and it's an understood euphemism.
Moses was really alone and separated from everyone most days. Joshua must have been some kind of relief to him.

 

[stovebolts]

Just to throw a wrench into it...

In the Book of Numbers, we read: “Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses regarding the Cushite woman he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman.”9

According to tradition, the woman in question was none other than Zipporah.10

The Untold Story of Zipporah, Wife of Moses

In the Book of Exodus, we are introduced to Zipporah, the daughter of Jethro, wife of Moses and mother of their two sons, Gershom and Eliezer.

www.chabad.org

Bamidbar - Numbers - Chapter 12 (Parshah Behaalotecha)

www.chabad.org

Footnote 10, Rashi comments.
Cushite woman: She was called “the Cushite” [the Ethiopian] on account of her beauty, as a man would call his handsome son “Cushite” to negate the power of the evil eye. — [Tanchuma Tzav 13]

האשה הכשית: על שם נויה נקראת כושית כאדם הקורא את בנו נאה כושי, כדי שלא תשלוט בו עין רעה:
for he had married a Cushite woman: And had now divorced her. - [Tanchuma Tzav 13]

Shabbat 87a

On the third day of the week, God said to them the mitzva of setting boundaries around Mount Sinai. On the fourth day of the week, the husbands and wives...

www.sefaria.org

Shabbat 87a
The William Davidson Talmud
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87a
בתלתא אמר להו מצות הגבלה בארבעה עבוד פרישה ורבנן סברי בתרי בשבא איקבע ירחא בתרי בשבא לא אמר להו ולא מידי משום חולשא דאורחא בתלתא אמר להו ואתם תהיו לי בארבעה אמר להו מצות הגבלה בחמישי עבוד פרישה מיתיבי וקדשתם היום ומחר קשיא לרבי יוסי

On the third day of the week, God said to them the mitzva of setting boundaries around Mount Sinai. On the fourth day of the week, the husbands and wives separated from one another. And the Rabbis hold: On the second day of the week the New Moon was established, and on the second day of the week God did not say anything to them due to the weariness caused by their journey. On the third day of the week, God said to them: “And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation; these are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel” (Exodus 19:6). On the fourth day of the week, God said to them the mitzva of setting boundaries around Mount Sinai. On the fifth day of the week, the husbands and wives separated from one another. The Gemara raises an objection: Doesn’t the verse state: “And the Lord said to Moses: Go to the people and sanctify them today and tomorrow and let them wash their garments” (Exodus 19:10), indicating that the husbands and wives were separated for only two days? This is difficult according to the opinion of Rabbi Yosei, who said earlier that the separation was for three days.

אמר לך רבי יוסי יום אחד הוסיף משה מדעתו דתניא שלשה דברים עשה משה מדעתו והסכים הקדוש ברוך הוא עמו הוסיף יום אחד מדעתו ופירש מן האשה ושבר את הלוחות

The Gemara answers: Rabbi Yosei could have said to you: Moses added one day to the number of days that God commanded based on his own perception, as it was taught in a baraita: Moses did three things based on his own perception, and the Holy One, Blessed be He, agreed with him. He added one day to the days of separation before the revelation at Sinai based on his own perception. And he totally separated from his wife after the revelation at Sinai. And he broke the tablets following the sin of the Golden Calf.

הוסיף יום אחד מדעתו מאי דריש היום ומחר היום כמחר מה למחר לילו עמו אף היום לילו עמו ולילה דהאידנא נפקא ליה שמע מינה תרי יומי לבר מהאידנא ומנלן דהסכים הקדוש ברוך הוא על ידו דלא שריא שכינה עד צפרא דשבתא

The Gemara discusses these cases: He added one day based on his own perception. What source did he interpret that led him to do so? He reasoned that since the Holy One, Blessed be He, said: “Sanctify them today and tomorrow,” the juxtaposition of the two days teaches that today is like tomorrow; just as tomorrow the men and women will separate for that day and the night preceding it, so too, today requires separation for the day and the night preceding it. Since God spoke to him in the morning, and the night of that day already passed, Moses concluded: Derive from it that separation must be in effect for two days besides that day. Therefore, he extended the mitzva of separation by one day. And from where do we derive that the Holy One, Blessed be He, agreed with his interpretation? It is derived from the fact that the Divine Presence did not rest upon Mount Sinai until Shabbat morning, as Moses had determined.

ופירש מן האשה מאי דריש נשא קל וחומר בעצמו אמר ומה ישראל שלא דברה שכינה עמהן אלא שעה אחת וקבע להן זמן אמרה תורה והיו נכנים וגו׳ אל תגשו אני שכל שעה ושעה שכינה מדברת עמי ואינו קובע לי זמן על אחת כמה וכמה ומנלן דהסכים הקדוש ברוך הוא על ידו דכתיב לך אמר להם שובו לכם לאהליכם וכתיב בתריה ואתה פה עמד עמדי ואית דאמרי פה אל פה אדבר בו

And he totally separated from his wife after the revelation at Sinai. What source did he interpret that led him to do so? He reasoned an a fortiori inference by himself and said: If Israel, with whom the Divine Presence spoke only one time and God set a specific time for them when the Divine Presence would be revealed, and yet the Torah stated: “Prepare yourselves for three days, do not approach a woman” (Exodus 19:15); I, with whom the Divine Presence speaks all the time and God does not set a specific time for me, all the more so that I must separate from my wife. And from where do we derive that the Holy One, Blessed be He, agreed with him? As it is written after the revelation at Sinai: “Go say to them: Return to your tents” (Deuteronomy 5:26), meaning to your homes and wives. And afterward it is written that God told Moses: “And you, stand here with Me” (Deuteronomy 5:27), indicating that Moses was not allowed to return home, as s he must constantly be prepared to receive the word of God. And some say a different source indicating that God agreed with his reasoning. When Aaron and Miriam criticized Moses’ separation from his wife, God said: “With him do I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord does he behold; why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?” (Numbers 12:8). This indicates that God agreed with his reasoning.

 

[brother Paul]

Just to throw a wrench into it...

In the Book of Numbers, we read: “Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses regarding the Cushite woman he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman.”9

According to tradition, the woman in question was none other than Zipporah.10

The Untold Story of Zipporah, Wife of Moses

In the Book of Exodus, we are introduced to Zipporah, the daughter of Jethro, wife of Moses and mother of their two sons, Gershom and Eliezer.

www.chabad.org

Bamidbar - Numbers - Chapter 12 (Parshah Behaalotecha)

www.chabad.org

Footnote 10, Rashi comments.
Cushite woman: She was called “the Cushite” [the Ethiopian] on account of her beauty, as a man would call his handsome son “Cushite” to negate the power of the evil eye. — [Tanchuma Tzav 13]

האשה הכשית: על שם נויה נקראת כושית כאדם הקורא את בנו נאה כושי, כדי שלא תשלוט בו עין רעה:
for he had married a Cushite woman: And had now divorced her. - [Tanchuma Tzav 13]

Shabbat 87a

On the third day of the week, God said to them the mitzva of setting boundaries around Mount Sinai. On the fourth day of the week, the husbands and wives...

www.sefaria.org

Shabbat 87a
The William Davidson Talmud
Save 'Shabbat 87a'
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87a
בתלתא אמר להו מצות הגבלה בארבעה עבוד פרישה ורבנן סברי בתרי בשבא איקבע ירחא בתרי בשבא לא אמר להו ולא מידי משום חולשא דאורחא בתלתא אמר להו ואתם תהיו לי בארבעה אמר להו מצות הגבלה בחמישי עבוד פרישה מיתיבי וקדשתם היום ומחר קשיא לרבי יוסי

On the third day of the week, God said to them the mitzva of setting boundaries around Mount Sinai. On the fourth day of the week, the husbands and wives separated from one another. And the Rabbis hold: On the second day of the week the New Moon was established, and on the second day of the week God did not say anything to them due to the weariness caused by their journey. On the third day of the week, God said to them: “And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation; these are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel” (Exodus 19:6). On the fourth day of the week, God said to them the mitzva of setting boundaries around Mount Sinai. On the fifth day of the week, the husbands and wives separated from one another. The Gemara raises an objection: Doesn’t the verse state: “And the Lord said to Moses: Go to the people and sanctify them today and tomorrow and let them wash their garments” (Exodus 19:10), indicating that the husbands and wives were separated for only two days? This is difficult according to the opinion of Rabbi Yosei, who said earlier that the separation was for three days.

אמר לך רבי יוסי יום אחד הוסיף משה מדעתו דתניא שלשה דברים עשה משה מדעתו והסכים הקדוש ברוך הוא עמו הוסיף יום אחד מדעתו ופירש מן האשה ושבר את הלוחות

The Gemara answers: Rabbi Yosei could have said to you: Moses added one day to the number of days that God commanded based on his own perception, as it was taught in a baraita: Moses did three things based on his own perception, and the Holy One, Blessed be He, agreed with him. He added one day to the days of separation before the revelation at Sinai based on his own perception. And he totally separated from his wife after the revelation at Sinai. And he broke the tablets following the sin of the Golden Calf.

הוסיף יום אחד מדעתו מאי דריש היום ומחר היום כמחר מה למחר לילו עמו אף היום לילו עמו ולילה דהאידנא נפקא ליה שמע מינה תרי יומי לבר מהאידנא ומנלן דהסכים הקדוש ברוך הוא על ידו דלא שריא שכינה עד צפרא דשבתא

The Gemara discusses these cases: He added one day based on his own perception. What source did he interpret that led him to do so? He reasoned that since the Holy One, Blessed be He, said: “Sanctify them today and tomorrow,” the juxtaposition of the two days teaches that today is like tomorrow; just as tomorrow the men and women will separate for that day and the night preceding it, so too, today requires separation for the day and the night preceding it. Since God spoke to him in the morning, and the night of that day already passed, Moses concluded: Derive from it that separation must be in effect for two days besides that day. Therefore, he extended the mitzva of separation by one day. And from where do we derive that the Holy One, Blessed be He, agreed with his interpretation? It is derived from the fact that the Divine Presence did not rest upon Mount Sinai until Shabbat morning, as Moses had determined.

ופירש מן האשה מאי דריש נשא קל וחומר בעצמו אמר ומה ישראל שלא דברה שכינה עמהן אלא שעה אחת וקבע להן זמן אמרה תורה והיו נכנים וגו׳ אל תגשו אני שכל שעה ושעה שכינה מדברת עמי ואינו קובע לי זמן על אחת כמה וכמה ומנלן דהסכים הקדוש ברוך הוא על ידו דכתיב לך אמר להם שובו לכם לאהליכם וכתיב בתריה ואתה פה עמד עמדי ואית דאמרי פה אל פה אדבר בו

And he totally separated from his wife after the revelation at Sinai. What source did he interpret that led him to do so? He reasoned an a fortiori inference by himself and said: If Israel, with whom the Divine Presence spoke only one time and God set a specific time for them when the Divine Presence would be revealed, and yet the Torah stated: “Prepare yourselves for three days, do not approach a woman” (Exodus 19:15); I, with whom the Divine Presence speaks all the time and God does not set a specific time for me, all the more so that I must separate from my wife. And from where do we derive that the Holy One, Blessed be He, agreed with him? As it is written after the revelation at Sinai: “Go say to them: Return to your tents” (Deuteronomy 5:26), meaning to your homes and wives. And afterward it is written that God told Moses: “And you, stand here with Me” (Deuteronomy 5:27), indicating that Moses was not allowed to return home, as s he must constantly be prepared to receive the word of God. And some say a different source indicating that God agreed with his reasoning. When Aaron and Miriam criticized Moses’ separation from his wife, God said: “With him do I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord does he behold; why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?” (Numbers 12:8). This indicates that God agreed with his reasoning.

This is Talmud...and traditions can be of men...but what about Scripture? Zipporah was a Midianitess (clearly different than a Cushite)...how do they explain this?

 

[stovebolts]

This is Talmud...and traditions can be of men...but what about Scripture? Zipporah was a Midianitess (clearly different than a Cushite)...how do they explain this?

Rashi explains it and cites his source.

The Talmud is nothing other than among other things, a collection of Jewish commentary just like commentary from a variety of Christian sources all bundled into a single source.

 

[brother Paul]

The Talmud is nothing other than among other things, a collection of Jewish commentary just like commentary from a variety of Christian sources all bundled into a single source.

True, and thus Talmud is not Torah, and cannot replace it.

Rashi explains it and cites his source.

And his source is the pilpul of men. Same with the denominational arguments and discussions among Christians. Rashi does not explain that after Zipporah returned to the tents of her MIDIANITE father with their sons, how she turned into a Cushite (an Ethiopian).

Please note that in the Torah Miriam has no problem with Zipporah but does have a problem with him marrying a Cushite. Perhaps it was because of her skin color because God turns Miriam really white (white as snow with Leprosy, a symbol of sin) until she repents. That is of course just speculation on my part but the second women was indeed a Cushite not a Midianite.

 

[stovebolts]

True, and thus Talmud is not Torah, and cannot replace it.

Rashi explains it and cites his source.

And his source is the pilpul of men. Same with the denominational arguments and discussions among Christians. Rashi does not explain that after Zipporah returned to the tents of her MIDIANITE father with their sons, how she turned into a Cushite (an Ethiopian).

Please note that in the Torah Miriam has no problem with Zipporah but does have a problem with him marrying a Cushite. Perhaps it was because of her skin color because God turns Miriam really white (white as snow with Leprosy, a symbol of sin) until she repents. That is of course just speculation on my part but the second women was indeed a Cushite not a Midianite.

Hey, I don't have a dog in this fight... Just sharing another's point of view.
What I will say is this, your allowed your biblical view and your mode of reasoning and speculation as much as the next guy. But we need to always give each other the same respect we would want to be given.

As far as Rashi, he is well respected in Jewish circles and although everyone will not agree with him on every point, his knowledge and biblical understanding is very deep and extremely wide. Rashi is well known for his command of the Jewish language, so when he says what he says about this passage, it can be trusted that it has its roots in the language and culture of the day.

Ramban will challenge Rashi on occasion, but generally, Jewish commentators including Ramban will ride on his tailcoats.

All that to say don't brush him off that easily.