Objective vs subjective

[poetofparables]

I believe the answer is yes. I think the reason some can't supply that evidence is because what they believe isn't truth. There has been a good bit of error brought into the church over 2000 years.

 

[poetofparables]

Actually I was not dealing with the other attributes of God to respond to your query. So let's talk about this issue.

God is not only absolute goodness, but He is also absolute holiness, righteousness and justice. Because of His holiness He does bring severe judgments and wrath on sinners and evildoers. In fact, He wiped out the human race except for Noah and his family. But God also gave those evildoers 120 years to repent and forsake their sins. So God's grace, His holiness, His justice, and His wrath are always in perfect balance. The great city of Nineveh repented altogether and was altogether spared after the preaching of Jonah.

Fear doesnt change someone malachi, it only causes people to supress their evil desires deeper.

 

[Malachi]

Fear doesnt change someone malachi, it only causes people to supress their evil desires deeper.

The only response to that is that millions have turned from sin and idols to Christ because of the fear of eternal damnation. At the same time the Gospel clearly presents God's grace and love to every sinner. And Noah was a preacher of righteousness who must have presented both grace and wrath. Grace to the repentant sinner and wrath to the evildoers and the ungodly.

 

[poetofparables]

The only response to that is that millions have turned from sin and idols to Christ because of the fear of eternal damnation. At the same time the Gospel clearly presents God's grace and love to every sinner. And Noah was a preacher of righteousness who must have presented both grace and wrath. Grace to the repentant sinner and wrath to the evildoers and the ungodly.

Yes billions have, and none have changed due to fear.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

poetofparables, I'm guessing what you lack is the conviction of your sins. And it sounds like you lack it because you are resisting that conviction. It's interesting how rejecting truth always manifests itself in unbelief.

The conviction of sin is ultimately the testimony that God sends into the world that testifies the most effectively to the truth of the Judgment and the kingdom to come. As I've said, it seems that so many people's search for truth ends when they receive that testimony to the truth, and then decide there is no truth to be known. And they do that for selfish reasons, not for logical or rational reasons. You know, the logic and reason they themselves say one should employ in their search for truth, but then don't use when confronted with the truth and reality of good and evil.

 

[poetofparables]

poetofparables, I'm guessing what you lack is the conviction of your sins. And it sounds like you lack it because you are resisting that conviction. It's interesting how rejecting truth always manifests itself in unbelief.

The conviction of sin is ultimately the testimony that God sends into the world that testifies the most effectively to the truth of the Judgment and the kingdom to come. As I've said, it seems that so many people's search for truth ends when they receive that testimony to the truth, and then decide there is no truth to be known. And they do that for selfish reasons, not for logical or rational reasons. You know, the logic and reason they themselves say one should employ in their search for truth, but then don't use when confronted with the truth and reality of good and evil.

Jethro,

I continue to be super aware of my sins even though I dont fear God (Yep, I call them sins too) But I dont try to change due to fear of some ultimate punishment, because thats like digging a hole deeper. The reason I still have a desire to change is many, one of them is survival, another is love, another is personal growth and healing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I continue to be super aware of my sins even though I dont fear God (Yep, I call them sins too) But I dont try to change due to fear of some ultimate punishment, because thats like digging a hole deeper.

Okay, good. I see you've received the next phase of revealed truth that comes after learning the truth about the reality of sin. You now understand that you are a slave to sin and that's there's nothing you can do about it--your fate is inevitable.

The problem is you're ending your search for truth there. You either have not received the next phase of revealed truth, or you've simply rejected it in favor of your own truth. Only you really know which is the case. Having come out of the church, can you guess what that next revealed truth is after realizing there is nothing you can do about your slavery to sin and the inevitable fate it assures you?

 

[LovethroughDove]

If truth is objective and absolute then why do religious people struggle to produce the evidence of their claims. When religious people claim that they know the "Truth" isn't that in their minds an objective claim. If it is in fact an objective claim then shouldn't these religious people have a massive body of theoretical evidence to support the claims they make.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Information travels pretty fast nowadays, so we could be close. Also, Jesus comes back looking like what took out the dinosaurs

Revelation 1:14-15 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

I don't know if any other religion relates our extinction to the last major extinction of life. This book has been around longer than science knew of dinosaurs and their fate.

 

[poetofparables]

Okay, good. I see you've received the next phase of revealed truth that comes after learning the truth about the reality of sin. You now understand that you are a slave to sin and that's there's nothing you can do about it--your fate is inevitable.

The problem is you're ending your search for truth there. You either have not received the next phase of revealed truth, or you've simply rejected it in favor of your own truth. Only you really know which is the case. Having come out of the church, can you guess what that next revealed truth is after realizing there is nothing you can do about your slavery to sin and the inevitable fate it assures you?

No, I only believed I was incapable of overcoming my sins unless jesus healed me. But now I realise I can heal myself, but when I say I am super aware of my "sins" Im only saying that i am not in denial of my own conscience. However the conscience is an imperfect developed (evolved) system, and you need your other systems to back you up.

 

[poetofparables]

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Information travels pretty fast nowadays, so we could be close. Also, Jesus comes back looking like what took out the dinosaurs

Revelation 1:14-15 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

I don't know if any other religion relates our extinction to the last major extinction of life. This book has been around longer than science knew of dinosaurs and their fate.

K.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, I only believed I was incapable of overcoming my sins unless jesus healed me. But now I realise I can heal myself, but when I say I am super aware of my "sins" Im only saying that i am not in denial of my own conscience. However the conscience is an imperfect developed (evolved) system, and you need your other systems to back you up.

Sounds like you missed the truth about having your sins forgiven in between the truth that you are a slave to sin and the truth that Jesus will heal those sins. But I think this is rather common. It seems many people know about and seek after legitimate truths about God, but without having made peace with God through the forgiveness of their sins nothing can come of any other knowledge they may have and even believe about God.

 

[poetofparables]

Sounds like you missed the truth about having your sins forgiven in between the truth that you are a slave to sin and the truth that Jesus will heal those sins. But I think this is rather common. It seems many people know about and seek after legitimate truths about God, but without having made peace with God through the forgiveness of their sins nothing can come of any other knowledge they may have and even believe about God.

Jethro,

When I was a christian I honestly believed I was a slave to sin and that only Jesus could heal me. So I do know what you mean there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,

When I was a christian I honestly believed I was a slave to sin and that only Jesus could heal me. So I do know what you mean there.

You seem to have left out the part about having your sins forgiven by God. It comes in between recognizing and acknowledging your helpless sinful condition and any healing that God will give for that sinful condition.

Many people can admit they sin. Many even speak very highly of Jesus and what he can do for people. But few actually cast themselves on the mercy of God and trust God to put them at peace with him through the forgiveness of their sins.

"10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee (a highly esteemed 'religious' man) and the other a tax collector (a highly despised 'sinner'). 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. " (Luke 18:10-14 NASB parenthesis mine)

A person has to do what the tax collector did before any healing and change can occur in them. It's called being 'born again'. Only the born again person has the power of God in them by virtue of the Holy Spirit to be a new and different person who then grows up to be more and more righteous in their behavior and healed of their habitual sinful condition.

 

[poetofparables]

You seem to have left out the part about having your sins forgiven by God. It comes in between recognizing and acknowledging your helpless sinful condition and any healing that God will give for that sinful condition.

Many people can admit they sin. Many even speak very highly of Jesus and what he can do for people. But few actually cast themselves on the mercy of God and trust God to put them at peace with him through the forgiveness of their sins.

"10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee (a highly esteemed 'religious' man) and the other a tax collector (a highly despised 'sinner'). 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. " (Luke 18:10-14 NASB parenthesis mine)

A person has to do what the tax collector did before any healing and change can occur in them. It's called being 'born again'. Only the born again person has the power of God in them by virtue of the Holy Spirit to be a new and different person who then grows up to be more and more righteous in their behavior and healed of their habitual sinful condition.

Jethro,

I did believe I was helpless, but I could only continue to commit sin while I was helples. (Its a vicious cycle friend)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,

I did believe I was helpless, but I could only continue to commit sin while I was helples. (Its a vicious cycle friend)

You need to be born again. You get born again by having your sins forgiven. This seems to be the element of truth lacking in your knowledge of all things God.

Born again people have a new nature--the nature of God--birthed inside of them. A nature that grows and grows within them conforming them into the righteous image of Christ. It is the only way to overcome sin. Self effort is doomed to failure. Self effort will not get you off of the squirrel cage of slavery to sin. Only having your sins forgiven and the Holy Spirit placed inside of you can set you free from the cycle and bondage of sin.

 

[poetofparables]

You need to be born again. You get born again by having your sins forgiven. This seems to be the element of truth lacking in your knowledge of all things God.

Born again people have a new nature--the nature of God--birthed inside of them. A nature that grows and grows within them conforming them into the righteous image of Christ. It is the only way to overcome sin. Self effort is doomed to failure. Self effort will not get you off of the squirrel cage of slavery to sin. Only having your sins forgiven and the Holy Spirit placed inside of you can set you free from the cycle and bondage of sin.

Ok.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok.

If the great debate with God is over and you agree with God what sin is and you hate that sin, and you agree that he is just in judging it, then you are ready to be born anew from above and receive God's mercy and grace in salvation and begin a new life.

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' (John 3:5-7 NASB)

"...the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast,saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified (righteous in God's sight)..." (Luke 18:13-14 NASB parenthesis and bold mine)

.

 

[poetofparables]

If the great debate with God is over and you agree with God what sin is and you hate that sin, and you agree that he is just in judging it, then you are ready to be born anew from above and receive God's mercy and grace in salvation and begin a new life.

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' (John 3:5-7 NASB)

"...the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast,saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified (righteous in God's sight)..." (Luke 18:13-14 NASB parenthesis and bold mine)

.

Why do you need me to be a christian so bad, is me be absent in heaven going to bother you when you get there?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do you need me to be a christian so bad, is me be absent in heaven going to bother you when you get there?

I guess the same reason someone cracks open a soda on a hot day and says, "you gotta have one of these!" The life Jesus gives is just one of those things that once you experience it you want other people to have it too.

And, besides, if you don't come to Christ my evangelistic efforts will have been in vain and I will have no one in the kingdom (you) to rejoice with--I in you, and you in me:

13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, 14 as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus." (2 Corinthians 1:13-14 NIV)


.

 

[poetofparables]

I guess the same reason someone cracks open a soda on a hot day and says, "you gotta have one of these!" The life Jesus gives is just one of those things that once you experience it you want other people to have it too.

And, besides, if you don't come to Christ my evangelistic efforts will have been in vain and I will have no one in the kingdom (you) to rejoice with--I in you, and you in me:

13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, 14 as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 1:13-14 NIV)


.

Ah I see, I see.

At least you're not saying " because you'll burn in hell if you don't"

Which I thankyou for not saying that.