Old testiment and your relationship with it.

[Drew]

.... the remaining 352 are still in effect today until this present heaven and earth passes away and need to be followed.

I disagree and have presented the relevant counterargument immediately above. Can you critique that counterargument?

 

[felix]

This is why Christianity has broken off into so many different denominations. The Bible isn't clear which rules stay and go. There is no list in the new testament of which rules are still relevant, but there are overtones of certain rules still being relevant.

As I mentioned earlier, Jesus Christ in the new covenant, gave just one commandment to love one another as ourselves and nothing else. This one commandment is infact not even a commandment because you cannot command someone to love and it has to come from within the heart. This is why, the Greek word used to translate commandment in English also can be used to translate prescription (for healing) but not the same in Hebrew.

When you believe in Christ, it is not a set of rules you follow. In fact, you never follow anything. It is God who will work within you, teach you everything you need to do and make you walk in the path of righteousness. If you believe in Christ and love Him, you don't have a set of rules at all. If hate your brother in heart, yet you speak good outside, you still don't love Him as yourself and the love of God is not in you. This is not true in old covenant. You can hate your brother in heart and still follow all commandments in the law to it's very word.

(Jer 31:33-34) But this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

 

[jasoncran]

drew, uh god did allow men and women who did beleive and werent jews or isrealites to become them .

case in point.
ruth
rachab
urijah the hittite, he wasnt a man of hire as he wanted to be with the men on the front and slept at the gate. meaning that he fully and likely was convert, and a large multitude of egyptians and others went to wilderness during exodus.

 

[for_his_glory]

I disagree and have presented the relevant counterargument immediately above. Can you critique that counterargument?

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Drew, if you look up the 613 laws you will see they are defined in certain categories as I have shown the ones that have been fulfilled by the birth, death and resurrection of Christ and the others that still remain law even today will remain until this present heaven and earth pass away and the new heaven and earth are ushered down from the third heaven where Jesus is preparing this for us. I let the word of God speak for itself.

 

[Drew]

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Drew, if you look up the 613 laws you will see they are defined in certain categories as I have shown the ones that have been fulfilled by the birth, death and resurrection of Christ and the others that still remain law even today will remain until this present heaven and earth pass away and the new heaven and earth are ushered down from the third heaven where Jesus is preparing this for us. I let the word of God speak for itself.

You are not dealing with my argument. I have made an argument that, consistent with clear Biblical precedent, Jesus is using metaphorical language when he refers to "heaven and earth passing away".

 

[for_his_glory]

You are not dealing with my argument. I have made an argument that, consistent with clear Biblical precedent, Jesus is using metaphorical language when he refers to "heaven and earth passing away".

First off, I do not argue Gods word for it says what it says if we would only open our Spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear what the Spirit of God has already spoken.

I have only shown those laws which Jesus has already fulfilled, nothing more and nothing less. I don't think it is only a metaphor when Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away as the new heaven and new earth in Rev 21 is our inheritance promise that is our reward that is even now being prepared in the third heaven and will be ushered down when Christ sens his angels to gathers his bride to meet him in the air until all things of this present earth are finished.

 

[elijah23]

I would like you guys(and gals) to clarify somthing for me what is your position of the old testiment and how you allow it to govern your personal system faith because I've noticed that different members here appear to attach different weight to the words of the old testiment.

Some of you will gladly cite verses of the old testiment to back up opinions or positions, Others intentionally seem to avoid using such verses even if they would hypothetically support their argument.

Of particular note are the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Whitch seem to be half-in half out most of the time.

Jesus had a view on this I am aware.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Can you explain what dose it mean to fufill a biblical law yet not repeal it in any way? I'm uncertain what this means in this context. And how dose that apply to Deuteronomy and Leviticus without honoring the entire book or discarding it entirely. How can only certain verses be obeyed?

I ask because, in my eyes the old testiment is a markedly more... Violent... book than it's later somewhat redacted version.
And of course my own internal ambilivence on the topic of violence + christians is the whole reason I'm drawn here day after day.

I have found the Old Testament to be very helpful to me. It teaches us many important things.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I would like you guys(and gals) to clarify somthing for me what is your position of the old testiment and how you allow it to govern your personal system faith because I've noticed that different members here appear to attach different weight to the words of the old testiment.

Some of you will gladly cite verses of the old testiment to back up opinions or positions, Others intentionally seem to avoid using such verses even if they would hypothetically support their argument.

Of particular note are the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Whitch seem to be half-in half out most of the time.

Jesus had a view on this I am aware.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

When Jesus called Philip & Nathanael to be a disciples, Philip said to Nathanael "I have found the one spoken of by Moses, and the Law, and the Prophets". In other words, the OT points to Christ.

Can you explain what dose it mean to fufill a biblical law yet not repeal it in any way? I'm uncertain what this means in this context. And how dose that apply to Deuteronomy and Leviticus without honoring the entire book or discarding it entirely. How can only certain verses be obeyed?

I ask because, in my eyes the old testiment is a markedly more... Violent... book than it's later somewhat redacted version.
And of course my own internal ambilivence on the topic of violence + christians is the whole reason I'm drawn here day after day.

As Paul writes in Romans, it is the Law that "condemns us.". If we admit that we are sinners, we admit that we are worthy of punishment for our sins. The Law convicts us, it proves us to be be liars, thieves, adulterers, and murderers. In the context of Deuteronomy & Leviticus, because of my sins, I deserve to punished. Jesus said that if I lust after a woman who is not my wife, I have committed adultery in my heart with her. According to the aforementioned books, I deserve to be stoned! Yet, consider John 8:


2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”


Jesus fulfills the Law by taking the punishment we deserve so we may die to our sin, just as Jesus died. That we may crucify our inequities ( our inability to fully obey the Law), just as Jesus was crucified.

Jesus fulfilled the Law through His atoning sacrifice so that whoever accepts His payment for our sin (the free gift of salvation) will not perish but, have everlasting life.

None of us are without sin, therefor none of us has the right to cast stones. Yet, by God's grace & mercy through Jesus Christ, we are free from the law of sin and, instead, bound by the law of love.

To love God, love our neighbor and, the greatest form of love: laying down ones life for the sake of others.

 

[Britt McCrimmon]

Most people see the law as a set of rules and regulations, but the law exposes our imperfections. It shows that we need a savior. It points us to Christ and our need for him. In Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus teaches us about the law. He tells us he came to accomplish it’s purpose. Paul, in Romans 3:21-31, explains to us that by our Faith in Jesus Christ we truly fulfill the Law. With out the Old Testament none of this would be possible!

The old testament points us to the need of a savior and points to Christ. All the prophets point to him. to see Christ in the old testament check out Christ Foretold

If you want more insight on the old testament check out The Old Testament, Do We Need It

 

[jasoncran]

Most people see the law as a set of rules and regulations, but the law exposes our imperfections. It shows that we need a savior. It points us to Christ and our need for him. In Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus teaches us about the law. He tells us he came to accomplish it’s purpose. Paul, in Romans 3:21-31, explains to us that by our Faith in Jesus Christ we truly fulfill the Law. With out the Old Testament none of this would be possible!

The old testament points us to the need of a savior and points to Christ. All the prophets point to him. to see Christ in the old testament check out Christ Foretold

If you want more insight on the old testament check out The Old Testament, Do We Need It

at a glance a good starting point after i came to christ first then went to the new testament.

 

[Igloo]

I still think there is a lot of good advice in the OT, though my biggest focus is on "Was I walking in the love of God when I did that, or when I plan to do this or that?" The New Testament covers a lot of moral points, so I think it is a good starting point. But some of the stuff in the OT, like the dietary restrictions, I still find are somewhat pertinent. I've heard that pigs will eat dead animals, that bottom dwelling "fish" like lobsters and etc aren't as good for you, and we all know that consistently eating uncooked meat (bloody meat) is not the healthy way to go. I bet plenty of psychologists can back up why it is unhealthy to practice incest. Therefore, the OT has weight, we just have to do our research and understand what commands were symbolic (Paul talks about the ox not being muzzled while treading the grain as a symbolic reference to missionaries getting paid for the missionary work they do [same would go for pastors and etc]), what commands are outdated (tattooing, I hear, is much safer now than it was back then), and what commands are still legitimate and should be practiced. Not everyone will agree on every command, but as Paul says, we should not let beliefs about minor commands be a dividing factor for us as a Body, because divided we fall.

I personally try to stick to the dietary restrictions as much as I am aware of them (though if it's ham or starvation, I'll most likely be eating the ham.). I don't plan to have sex with any of my relatives. I hope to get some tattoos someday (I want to get "On Earth as it is in Heaven" tattooed on my back). I do trim my facial hair. I don't practice any of the religious holidays of the Law, outside of remembering to have a day of rest for myself (the thought of having to live in a tent for a week makes me shudder).

 

[Drew]

First off, I do not argue Gods word for it says what it says if we would only open our Spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear what the Spirit of God has already spoken.

You are basically begging the question - suggesting that you do not need to defend your point, since you have some "special insight".

This is a common tactic, but it is simply not a valid way to approach the scripture - anyone can say this. You need to actually deal with the argument I presented.

 

[HisSheep]

Hi all. I’d like to add my view on the OT here because my view is different than most. And of course, I think I’m right! :yes I think other Christians may benefit from my interpretation, which I arrived at myself though I’m sure I’m not the first.

I have tried to develop an understanding of scripture that leaves as few outstanding questions as possible. When I first became a Christian (Just a few years ago) I had a higher regard for the NT than The OT, believing that the NT was something of a replacement for the OT. Now, I see that they are harmonious and complimentary.

I’ll never fit it all into one post that people are willing to read, so I’ll try to make pithy statements to summarize my views.

1.)Just a starting distinction: The “Law†is unique in the OT. The OT is comprised of the Law, History, Wisdom and the Prophets, and the books are in that order in our bibles.

2.)The “law†(The books of Moses) still stands and not one Jot or tittle HAS changed. To me this means that if a man WERE to adhere to the law perfectly, he would actually be justified by it. God wasn’t kidding when He laid down His law. The problem with this is that no man is ABLE to do it, because of his fallen state, and God knew this all along. Of course, Christ came and did it with His perfect faith, and imputed His righteousness to us. Jesus even satisfied Leviticus 1:9 when He shed water on the cross. Fascinating.

3.)As Britt McCrimmon (welcome newbie!) pointed out in post 29, the law demonstrates our need for a savior. This is probably the most important function of the “law†to us Christians. God basically says, “Jump this high†and we (Israel) try and try, but simply cannot do it; then comes Jesus who actually DOES it.

4.)This brings me to the next point which is that Israel’s story is a real corollary for a single Christian under the New Covenant. Don’t make the (all too common) mistake of thinking that Israel is a “type†of the church or of mankind in general. This doesn’t hold water, and leaves far too many inconsistencies. To word this differently: The NATION of Israel is symbolic of a SINGLE Christian. The surrounding civilizations like Amalek, Ai, Jericho the Philistines and Babalyon are symbolic of sin, temptation, the “world†or unbelievers from which Christians are to be “set apartâ€. Israels foes were to be killed, endured, or conquered. Israel was to only have faith while God provided the victory. See 2Chronicles 20 for this picture.

What Israel went through in the flesh, we go through in the spirit. With this view of the OT, Achan is a sinful PART of the Christian, which needs to be destroyed. Consider Psalm 101:8 in which David says:

I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD. (Psalm 101:8)

If we take Israel to be a “type†of a modern nation, the church, or people in general, this verse can only mean that Christians are to kill sinners. Of course, this is not what the Psalm means at all. We are to destroy the evil parts within OURSELVES. Note the Psalms similarity to Paul’s command in his letter to the Colossians:

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry (Colossians 3:5)

Also consider that Israel was chosen (like a Christian), delivered from bondage (like a Christian) and walked with the Lord through the wilderness (Like a Christian) was baptized (like a Christian) in the Red Sea. Then Israel walked with the Lord (like a Christian) as He supplied their every need. Israel grumbled (like a Christian) and was refined by God. The faithless members of Israel are purged before crossing the Jordan into the Promised Land.

Seen this way, the OT is indispensable. If the bible describes the character of God and the Character of man, Israel is the PERFECT description of man. I pray this view helps some Christians out.

-HisSheep

 

[jasoncran]

the law wasnt meant to be able to give you life. god knowingly gave that to men knowing fully well that man couldnt live by it and wouldnt.

he makes that clear in exodus. the law was for isreal as standard of conduct after faith.

it cannot produce faith at all. most christian get that backwards when they try to pass moral laws at times. its faith then a code of conduct. yes it does work to cause men to repent etc but its clear why the law in deutermony as isreal was to be a light

<SUP>5</SUP>Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.

<SUP id=en-KJV-5011 class=versenum>6</SUP>Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
<SUP id=en-KJV-5012 class=versenum>7</SUP>For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? <SUP id=en-KJV-5013 class=versenum>8</SUP>And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

why would god ask for perfection from man? he wouldnt. and he never did.that is like asking a dog to talk and punishing for not talking.


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