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On Communion

Nowhere in scripture does Jesus say to believe that the bread and wine turn into his body and blood.

Jesus said specifically that the bread was His body and the wine was His blood.

You can believe Him or not. It's your choice.

Then He said that whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood has eternal life.

You can believe that or not also. It's your choice. WHat you choose to believe or not believe is between you and God and none of my business.

I choose to believe that Jesus meant exactly what He said whether I understand the how and why or not.

I hope that's OK with you.

But, if not, I will still continue to accept Jesus' words as He said them and not try to second guess God.

That the bread and wine become the body and blood of our Lord has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning. I see absolute4ly no reason to second guess 2000 years of teaching.

So, I have stated what I believe based on what the scriptures say and on what the church has always taught.

You have a great day.

iakov the fool
 
not all believe in transubation , Im not one of them.
 
I take it literally.
Ok, now I'm confused.so drinking wine was his blood, literally and yet wasn't dead.of course we are to eat and drink these elements, bUT they are representive of his death.most of the rituals in the bible are of that way
 
Here's my problem: Like I said to turnandburn there's a big divide between what was believed prior to 1,500 and what came to be believed after 1,500. Really, if you read the very early church fathers, 1st century, you'll find that they believed they were actually eating the body and drinking the blood. Ignatius of Antioch was clear on this.
I think I can't post, not sure. It could be googled very easily. Ignatius of Antioch knew John. What more can I say?
Figuratively speaking, as long as we are eating and drinking the communion in remembrance of Jesus, then we are eating his actual flesh and blood, since Jesus was the Word of God made flesh, and he did consecrate the New Covenant in his blood.

On Ignatius of Antioch:
Most people read this quote from his "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 7. circa 80-110 A.D. "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes".

But who are "They" which Ignatius is alluding to in paragraph 7? From paragraph 5. "For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was truly possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to a true belief in Christ's passion, which is our resurrection."

So, in context, Ignatius is saying the same thing that I am saying, as shown here from my post #39: Respectfully, How does the term "symbolic" come to mean, "I'm not believing that"...? To me the bread and wine are symbolic. The bread is his body, speaking of his existence as the man who is the expressed image of God, sent by God the Father. And the blood is symbolic of his sacrificial death as the lamb of God, so that sins may be forgiven.
 
Ok, now I'm confused.so drinking wine was his blood, literally and yet wasn't dead.of course we are to eat and drink these elements, bUT they are representive of his death.most of the rituals in the bible are of that way

Jesus didn't say "this is a ritual representing my death." HE said This bread is my body and this wine (cup) is my blood. The historical records of the early church (1st century) show that they took the words literally. WHat has changed that I should not believe as they believed?
 
Jesus didn't say "this is a ritual representing my death." HE said This bread is my body and this wine (cup) is my blood. The historical records of the early church (1st century) show that they took the words literally. WHat has changed that I should not believe as they believed?
So his body was literally a motza bread with no organs? Notice I'm thinking as a jew would.I'm not concerning myself with the elements just how you take it.the elements were to the Jewish church from what feast? The peshac. Where they ate unleavened bread ,drank whine.that has what symbol .in fact this all occured prior to peshac. The very idea of being born again is tied to the national rebirth of isreal at the first peshac .out of isreal have I called thee my firstborn.thanks I never saw how Jewish my bible was and how much more I'm connected to my Horeb by the blood.the bread symbolise both purity in both peshac and the communion.the whine also nearly in symbolism is the same.the blood of the lamb whereby the angel of death passes over the faithful Hebrews and gentiles.yes many Egyptians left with isreal at the exodus
 
From Clement of Alexandria: “Paedagogus” (The Instructor).

“Eat ye my flesh,” He says, “and drink my blood.” Such is the suitable food which the Lord ministers, and He offers His flesh and pours forth His blood, and nothing is wanting for the children’s growth. O amazing mystery. We are enjoined to cast off the old and carnal corruption, as also the old nutriment, receiving in exchange another new regimen, that of Christ, receiving Him if we can, to hide Him within; and that, enshrining the Savior in our souls, we may correct the affections of our flesh.” (Paedagogus 1:6)

“But you are not inclined to understand it thus, but perchance more generally. Hear it also in the following way. The flesh figuratively represents to us the Holy Spirit; for the flesh was created by Him. The blood points out to us the Word, for as rich blood the Word has been infused into life; and the union of both is the Lord, the food of the babes–the Lord who is Spirit and Word. The food- that is, the Lord Jesus–that is, the Word of God, the Spirit made flesh, the heavenly flesh sanctified…” (ibid)

“But we are God-taught, and glory in the name of Christ. How then are we not to regard the apostle as attaching this sense to the milk of the babes? And if we who preside over the Churches are shepherds after the image of the good Shepherd, and you the sheep, are we not to regard the Lord as preserving consistency in the use of figurative speech, when He speaks also of the milk of the flock?… Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: “Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood; ” describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,–of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood. For in reality the blood of faith is hope, in which faith is held as by a vital principle.” (ibid)

“’I,’ says the Lord, ‘have meat to eat that ye know not of. My meat is to do the will of Him that sent Me.’ You see another kind of food which, similarly with milk, represents figuratively the will of God. Besides, also, the completion of His own passion He called catachrestically “a cup,” when He alone had to drink and drain it. Thus to Christ the fulfilling of His Father’s will was food; and to us infants, who drink the milk of the word of the heavens, Christ Himself is food. Hence seeking is called sucking; for to those babes that seek the Word, the Father’s breasts of love supply milk.” (ibid)

“Thus in many ways the Word is figuratively described, as meat, and flesh, and food, and bread, and blood, and milk. The Lord is all these, to give enjoyment to us who have believed on Him. Let no one then think it strange, when we say that the Lord’s blood is figuratively represented as milk. For is it not figuratively represented as wine? “Who washes,” it is said, “His garment in wine, His robe in the blood of the grape.” In His Own Spirit He says He will deck the body of the Word; as certainly by His own Spirit He will nourish those who hunger for the Word.” (ibid)

“For the blood of the grape–that is, the Word–desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is two fold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both–of the water and of the Word–is called eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul. For the divine mixture, man, the Father’s will has mystically compounded by the Spirit and the Word. For, in truth, the spirit is joined to the soul, which is inspired by it; and the flesh, by reason of which the Word became flesh, to the Word.” (Paedagogus 2:2)
 
But who are "They" which Ignatius is alluding to in paragraph 7?

They are Docetists who denied that Jesus came in the flesh. They taught that His body was a phantasm and that He only appeared to suffer. Therefore, since Jesus did not have flesh and blood, there could be no real flesh and blood to consume in the Eucharist .

So, in context, Ignatius is saying the same thing that I am saying, as shown here from my post #39: Respectfully, How does the term "symbolic" come to mean, "I'm not believing that"...? To me the bread and wine are symbolic.

That is completely contrary to the context of what Ignatius said. He said to keep away from the heretics who taught that the Eucharist was symbolic.

iakov the fool
 
If you want to have an adult discussion, I am available.
that is what you imply.of course they took it to be a literal command.goof lord ,you got miffed at how a jew often sees that.shoot I know a rabbi that will not talk to you if you say,spell the YHWH. He even says that isn't a the name of God bit a title. It's a character attribute and one of many that God uses.I have said that for years.the early hebrew church wasn't thinking Jesus literally said a piece of unleavened bread or yeasted fermented water was his blood bit took them to represent his body and blood and what occured at the cross and by eating it with him and us with the elements symbolise the relationship we have now and the love he had.we live in our accursed greek thinking to take it so analytical. It's not meant to be .the bread to the jews and whine have meanings. They all knew the torah.make sense since it's who they were I am from to know that about isreal and the depth of Jewish rituals.funny both peshac and communion have a dire consequence for failing to do them properly or with respect.I meant no insult
 
that is what you imply.of course they took it to be a literal command

Jesus said "This IS my body" and "this IS the cup of my blood of the new covenant."

You can mock what Jesus said but do not expect me to participate in such juvenile nonsense.
 
Jesus said "This IS my body" and "this IS the cup of my blood of the new covenant."

You can mock what Jesus said but do not expect me to participate in such juvenile nonsense.
Ok do literally his body is or disn't have at the time.you do realize in Judaism how they think,act.Jesus was what.a goy.greek,American or jew.he was a jew.the God of the bible used all hebrews to write the bible.

There us no mocking.if the first communion was the eating of his body literally as say.then you di believe that as the catholics says as that they teach.to wit his body literally becomes the bread we eat and blood becomes whine we drink.there is no other way.

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-catholic-sacrament-of-holy-communion.html
 
They are Docetists who denied that Jesus came in the flesh. They taught that His body was a phantasm and that He only appeared to suffer. Therefore, since Jesus did not have flesh and blood, there could be no real flesh and blood to consume in the Eucharist .
Which is why I said the flesh is food, in that he existed so as to have faith in, or figuratively speaking the bread that came from heaven. And it appears that you agree, that in context, that those who deny that Jesus ever came in the flesh, is who Ignatius is referring to when he says this: They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our SaviourJesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raisedup again.

That is completely contrary to the context of what Ignatius said. He said to keep away from the heretics who taught that the Eucharist was symbolic.
Respectfully, you are mistaken. He says this, and I quote: "It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved."

Once again, this is directed to those who deny that Christ ever came in the flesh. There is no mention of the term symbol, nor should there be since this is not the point of his letter. But Clement of Alexandria is clear.

"And if we who preside over the Churches are shepherds after the image of the good Shepherd, and you the sheep, are we not to regard the Lord as preserving consistency in the use of figurative speech, when He speaks also of the milk of the flock?… Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: “Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood; ” describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,–of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood. For in reality the blood of faith is hope, in which faith is held as by a vital principle.”

Let the Truth be spoken on this Forum, that knowing the Christ is the knowing of the Person of God. He is the food for which the world hungers.

1 John 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

 
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https://emailmeditations.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/180-martin-luther-on-holy-communion/

Funny.I see nothong there I don't disagree with. I'm not going into a semantics of its literally his body .it's not they represent his body in that one of two ritual. Shoot baptism per Peter literally means to be buried and raised with christ.it's a literal command. With THE Symbol Of THE Cross AND It's Open Public CONFESSION Of It IN YOUR life. You don't literally die in the water and are raised by the pastor.it's a reminder .the communion elements are such.
 
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