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On Communion

Ok do literally his body is or disn't have at the time.you do realize in Judaism how they think,act.Jesus was what.a goy.greek,American or jew.he was a jew.the God of the bible used all hebrews to write the bible.

There us no mocking.if the first communion was the eating of his body literally as say.then you di believe that as the catholics says as that they teach.to wit his body literally becomes the bread we eat and blood becomes whine we drink.there is no other way.

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-catholic-sacrament-of-holy-communion.html

I don't care what the "catholics" say. I care what the scriptures says and I care what the earliest Christians said.

Jesus and the earliest writers of the church said that the bread is His body and the wine is His blood. In fact, the entire church believed the same until the time that some folks figured they were qualified to reform what Jesus taught. If you want to go that way, it's your eternal life.

Jesus didn't explain how that could be and neither did any of the early church fathers. Apparently, it's above our pay-grades and we're not packing the gear to comprende.

But I'm not second-guessing what Jesus said or what the people who were taught by the apostles believed.

You believe as you like.

Enjoy!

iakov the fool
 
Clement of Alexandria is clear.

Clement of Alexandria was essentially a Docetist who taught that Christ's body was not subject to suffering and he also denied Christ's full humanity.

You have quoted one of the people of whom Ignatius warned the church to steer clear.

It might should give you pause that you have chosen him for support of your position.

No cigar.

iakov the fool
 
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http://web.archive.org/web/20101009033540/http://ivanlewis.com/Didache/didache.html
Uhm no.Im one who takes it literally.you are using commentary from the early church are subject to bias.nothing there about how the early church ,ad 50 or close took that.it's a command. Your reaction to that being a non literal bread but literal bread that is a body .though not a symbol of Jesus. But is Jesus. Is confusing. I'm taking down this path as I take things hyper analytically. I see the elements as a means to revere the work of the body and blood of Jesus.not in themselves a blood and body of Him.but representations of His blood and body and what occured. But disregard to them which I don't have is dangerous. I take no communion and won't until I see fit. I have before and God knows why.I will not partake until a be setting sin is gone.
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20101009033540/http://ivanlewis.com/Didache/didache.html
Uhm no.Im one who takes it literally.you are using commentary from the early church are subject to bias.

LOL!!! But YOURS isn't!???

The early church faters were much closer to the original apostolic teaching than you. They're within a generation!

nothing there about how the early church ,ad 50 or close took that.it's a command.

Do me a favor. Write complete sentences so I don't have to guess what you're talking about.

Your reaction to that being a non literal bread but literal bread that is a body .though not a symbol of Jesus. But is Jesus. Is confusing.

It couldn't be more confusing than that string of words.

I take no communion and won't until I see fit. I have before and God knows why.I will not partake until a be setting sin is gone.

OK. So you make up your own rules. That's not uncommon in western Christianity. We tend to be rebellious.
 
LOL!!! But YOURS isn't!???

The early church faters were much closer to the original apostolic teaching than you. They're within a generation!



Do me a favor. Write complete sentences so I don't have to guess what you're talking about.



It couldn't be more confusing than that string of words.



OK. So you make up your own rules. That's not uncommon in western Christianity. We tend to be rebellious.
It's not a command every service.as ye oft.umh no.I'm not a catholic,orthodox, I don't proclaim a membership.I was raised a jevohas witness that is why I shy away from the catholics and greek and orthodox. A group of men tell you what the Bible says.again irs their thoughts.commentary even theirs is fallable.
Yet the irony is that you are arguing over that the a piece of unleavened flat bread isn't the body of Jesus literallty.nor the whine having corpuscles.

So I have to get silly.what is the bread literally?to me I find It being representI've if the body.yet you seem to think that it is his body then say no its not.so it's not a symbol or a ritual whereby the food and drink is part of that to remind us of something. The catholics partake communion at each mass,my church once every three months,some others I have been to once every year.so oft is how many times.per the bible not apolostic tradition. I respect the early father's but again I can dig up escatology of St Justin the martyr and post that he confesses by implication the return of the mosaic law. Or the myriads of contradictory statements on eschatology by them.so does that mean I must jump in on that bandwagon?

Oh wait .I'm rebellious when I'm not.since you don't know the nature of the war with the besething sin.you can't make thar claim.would you knowingly lie to God on prayer about a repentance? I refuse to.I told him I can't stop,I haven't the power.I want to but I also know until he takes it.the very I say I'm sorry ,I'm back doing that same thing.so no,I will not take the elements. Does it not say to ponder if you are worthy to partale and to repent? That is what I was taught.I have told my pastor of this,other pastors at chapel in the military. They respect me decision. So just because I'm not an orthodox,greek nor russian,or catholic, copt.does not mean I ignore the church fathers or use commentaries.I personally like Adam clarke,Mathew henry.and barnes.shoot I posted Martin Luther who really wanted to fix catholicism not to break from it.
 
Funny thing is . I don't over think the communion elements. Until this thread I seldom gave how rich the meanings in Judaism it has.I know that peshac is tied in.but not like I just saw it.communion is so much more then peshac
 
Clement of Alexandria was essentially a Docetist who taught that Christ's body was not subject to suffering and he also denied Christ's full humanity.
The issue of Christ being "fully human" vs. "fully divine" is an argument of semantics.

Here is something I found that Clement of Alexandria wrote: "Rejoice," it is said, "that ye are partakers in the sufferings of Christ:" that is, if ye are righteous, ye suffer for righteousness' sake, as Christ suffered for righteousness. Sounds like he believes that the Christ suffered. That would mean he is not a Docetist. But if you don't like him, then here is Tertullion:

"He says, it is true, that 'the flesh profiteth nothing;' but then, as in the former case, the meaning must be regulated by the subject which is spoken of. Now, because they thought His discourse was harsh and intolerable, supposing that He had really and literally enjoined on them to eat his flesh, He, with the view of ordering the state of salvation as a spiritual thing, set out with the principle, 'It is the spirit that quickeneth;' and then added, 'The flesh profiteth nothing,'--meaning, of course, to the giving of life. He also goes on to explain what He would have us to understand by spirit: 'The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 'In a like sense He had previously said: 'He that heareth my words, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but shall pass from death unto life.' Constituting, therefore, His word as the life-giving principle, because that word is spirit and life, He likewise called His flesh by the same appelation; because, too, the Word had become flesh, we ought therefore to desire Him in order that we may have life, and to devour Him with the ear, and to ruminate on Him with the understanding, and to digest Him by faith. Now, just before the passage in hand, He had declared His flesh to be 'the bread which cometh down from heaven, 'impressing on His hearers constantly under the figure of necessary food the memory of their forefathers, who had preferred the bread and flesh of Egypt to their divine calling."--(Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 37)


You have quoted one of the people of whom Ignatius warned the church to steer clear.
I don't think that is possible since Ignatius died in 110 A.D. and Clement was born in 150 A.D.

It might should give you pause that you have chosen him for support of your position.
Well let us both pause and consider our positions.

Let us cut to the chase. Your position is essentially saying that those who partake of the communion believing the bread and wine turn into his body and blood are the True Church where Christ dwells. Consequently you ingest the Christ in this manner according to this scripture.
John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

By comparison, I believe the Spirit of Christ dwells in us through belief that God is the divine Love that would sacrifice Himself for those unworthy of Him. 1 John 4:9. Those who dwell in Him, and He in them, through such a faith, will be freed in their conscience to show the same Love, and they are the Church. 1 John 4:15. And in this faith, Christ is ingested in a manner that is known as the hearing of the Gospel, and the power of it is the cross. Hence the true communion of the Church is done in memory of Him, whom God sent to suffer death on the cross, so as to give us life. That is why he said his body is food and his blood is drink.
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

I don't see the significance of the bread and wine turning into his flesh and blood, except to cause some to conclude that anyone who does not believe this, is not in the Church. I don't like that Litmus test. It doesn't mean that just because they don't agree with that interpretation of the words of Christ, that they don't believe the Gospel.
 
Funny thing is . I don't over think the communion elements. Until this thread I seldom gave how rich the meanings in Judaism it has.I know that peshac is tied in.but not like I just saw it.communion is so much more then peshac
How many cups are there in the Passover meal?
 
No. Not as the Catholics teach but as Jesus taught.
Thanks for the distinction Jim Parker.

It IS an important one to make.
I don't see what the CC has to do with this - although they do believe in the real presence of Jesus in the host.

And it's based on scripture. Yes. It depends on how one wants to understand it.
I keep repeating about Ignatius of Antioch but I guess what he thought doesn't make a difference even though he did something I would love to do.

Speak to John!

Wondering
 
Ok, now I'm confused.so drinking wine was his blood, literally and yet wasn't dead.of course we are to eat and drink these elements, bUT they are representive of his death.most of the rituals in the bible are of that way
Hi jasonC

At midnight we were at page 3 and here we are the next morning at 6. So I may be repeating.

I'm trying to think of rituals in the bible that were representative.
They might have represented something (I can think of a couple: The tower of Bable, The destruction of S and G).
They represented something but they really happened.

So when Jesus said, This is my B, this is my B, it's representing something but it's really going to happen. He did say to eat and drink. How do you eat and drink a representation? I can't eat and drink a picture of the crucifixion.

Also, you say:

Ok.I wasn't sure.I see it as a figurative as he uses them to remind us of the cross.

I don't know. We need something to remind us of the cross?
Wasn't the cross enough to remind us of it? We needed more?

You don't really need to answer unless you want to. We're never going to agree on this one.

Wondering
 
How does one follow Acts 15:20 ( Gen 9:3-4 also)and Drink the Blood in communion ?
 
g
Figuratively speaking, as long as we are eating and drinking the communion in remembrance of Jesus, then we are eating his actual flesh and blood, since Jesus was the Word of God made flesh, and he did consecrate the New Covenant in his blood.

On Ignatius of Antioch:
Most people read this quote from his "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 7. circa 80-110 A.D. "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes".

But who are "They" which Ignatius is alluding to in paragraph 7? From paragraph 5. "For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was truly possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to a true belief in Christ's passion, which is our resurrection."

So, in context, Ignatius is saying the same thing that I am saying, as shown here from my post #39: Respectfully, How does the term "symbolic" come to mean, "I'm not believing that"...? To me the bread and wine are symbolic. The bread is his body, speaking of his existence as the man who is the expressed image of God, sent by God the Father. And the blood is symbolic of his sacrificial death as the lamb of God, so that sins may be forgiven.
Childeye,

You can say you disagree, but you surely cannot say you agree with Ignatius!

Here's the whole pp:

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God… They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 6

You're directing me to "who are the THEY". It doesn't matter who "they" are for this discussion. It matters what they believe. They do not receive because they do not confess that the Eucharist IS THE FLESH of our Savior. FLESH which was suffered for our sins and which the Father RAISED UP AGAIN.

Didn't Jesus fleshly die on the cross? It surely wasn't symbolic. Was He not raised again in the flesh? He ate with the disciples. Thomas put his finger in a wound. Jesus walked with two disciples to Emmaus. He ate with them too.

Ignatius is plainly saying that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior. it just doesn't sound symbolic.

Wondering
 
Hi Childeye,

You say:
The issue of Christ being "fully human" vs. "fully divine" is an argument of semantics.

It's both. Jesus was fully God and fully man.

Can't communion be the same? Can't it be both? Understood in a spiritual way which is very beautiful, but also in a literal way, which is what I get by reading John?

Why can't it be both??

Wondering
 
Hello jasonc

This is very personal so forgive me.
You said you're not going to receive communion until you stop a sin, or sinning. You've spoken to pastors so who am I to give any advice? So, this isn't advice, I'd just like to say that if we waited to be free of sin to receive communion, nobody would!

You have to be free from sin at the moment you receive. When you ask God's forgiveness it's always a matter of the WILL that you decide not to sin anymore. You " will " it at that moment. You must, however, really mean it.

But then we're fragile beings and prone to the sinful nature. So there's a chance we'll sin again and maybe the same sin over and over. It's like dust. It keeps falling on the furniture. You have to keep dusting it off. But there are moments when the furniture is clean and shiny. Then it gets dusty again.

There are no saints here, jasonc. Don't wait to be one.

Wondering
 
Hi jasonC

At midnight we were at page 3 and here we are the next morning at 6. So I may be repeating.

I'm trying to think of rituals in the bible that were representative.
They might have represented something (I can think of a couple: The tower of Bable, The destruction of S and G).
They represented something but they really happened.

So when Jesus said, This is my B, this is my B, it's representing something but it's really going to happen. He did say to eat and drink. How do you eat and drink a representation? I can't eat and drink a picture of the crucifixion.

Also, you say:

Ok.I wasn't sure.I see it as a figurative as he uses them to remind us of the cross.

I don't know. We need something to remind us of the cross?
Wasn't the cross enough to remind us of it? We needed more?

You don't really need to answer unless you want to. We're never going to agree on this one.

Wondering
I drink and eat both elements
 
The issue of Christ being "fully human" vs. "fully divine" is an argument of semantics.

Semantics? Really?

The full deity and full humanity of Christ is the foundation of Christianity.
Christ is at once both God and Man.
It is God who became man without ceasing to be God.
The man Jesus of Nazareth is fully God without ceasing to be man.
Without the full deity and full humanity of Christ, the atonement is rendered ineffective for salvation.
This is basic, essential, Christian doctrine.

It is hardly just an argument of semantics.

Iakov the fool
 
Hello jasonc

This is very personal so forgive me.
You said you're not going to receive communion until you stop a sin, or sinning. You've spoken to pastors so who am I to give any advice? So, this isn't advice, I'd just like to say that if we waited to be free of sin to receive communion, nobody would!

You have to be free from sin at the moment you receive. When you ask God's forgiveness it's always a matter of the WILL that you decide not to sin anymore. You " will " it at that moment. You must, however, really mean it.

But then we're fragile beings and prone to the sinful nature. So there's a chance we'll sin again and maybe the same sin over and over. It's like dust. It keeps falling on the furniture. You have to keep dusting it off. But there are moments when the furniture is clean and shiny. Then it gets dusty again.

There are no saints here, jasonc. Don't wait to be one.

Wondering
A besetting sin, I'm not implying perfection.let's just say in also have had a long time ago have taken the sacriments in vain. I was in the sin of bisexuality.I knew it was wrong but wanted it. I knew God said don't partake ,and I did once.
 
A besetting sin, I'm not implying perfection.let's just say in also have had a long time ago have taken the sacriments in vain. I was in the sin of bisexuality.I knew it was wrong but wanted it. I knew God said don't partake ,and I did once.
That's your dust.
God can forgive all.

Wondering
 
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