On the topic of dress

[WIP]

We are all familiar with Jesus' view about adultery, "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt. 5:28

So, I am a man and I am attracted to women. If a woman dresses seductively how can I help it but to look at her with lust in my heart? She has coerced me into a sinful thought before I could even react and now I must repent.

Not that I'm trying to shift guilt, as I know the guilt is mine, but is it just as sinful for women to dress in a manner that invokes men to sin?

 

[Sam21]

Sure.

 

[theLords]

Depends on what's in her heart. Why is she dressing the way she's dressing? Is her sin issue one of trying to seduce men? Or does she have self-esteem issues that are leading her to sin to gain attention/approval from men rather then from God?

Everyone has their own interpretation of what modest is. I got hit on yesterday despite wearing uggs, jeans, and having a long winter coat on :ohwell

 

[WIP]

Is her sin issue one of trying to seduce men? Or does she have self-esteem issues that are leading her to sin to gain attention/approval from men

What's the difference? Her actions are still less than honorable aren't they?

Don't take me wrong. I very much enjoy the visual effects. The problem is that I enjoy them too much. I guess women have been enticing men since the beginning. After all, it was a woman that enticed Adam into taking that fatal bite. That doesn't take away the fact that he disobeyed any more than a woman's beauty takes away from my lustful thoughts.

Talk about your Catch-22!

 

[jasoncran]

We are all familiar with Jesus' view about adultery, "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt. 5:28

So, I am a man and I am attracted to women. If a woman dresses seductively how can I help it but to look at her with lust in my heart? She has coerced me into a sinful thought before I could even react and now I must repent.

Not that I'm trying to shift guilt, as I know the guilt is mine, but is it just as sinful for women to dress in a manner that invokes men to sin?

yes it is.

i say this as i struggle alot with this as i was big time porn fiend and still in my flesh i like to look.

as all red-blooded men do we like the female figure, that being said

on sunday afternoon i was on my way to napa to get some air hose nipples for my home collection of air tools. and i notice an attractive women that was walking her baby.

normal to glance but when she wears a half length shirt that shows here tight(not ripped) abs and lowcut and tight jeans. its reall hard for me not to glance and yup i did and had to repent.numerous times

shame on me yes, but also on her as if she wasnt as openly with her figure(not that theres not some that flash more flesh).

like my wife says, they show it so that you will look.

 

[theLords]

What's the difference? Her actions are still less than honorable aren't they?

Don't take me wrong. I very much enjoy the visual effects. The problem is that I enjoy them too much. I guess women have been enticing men since the beginning. After all, it was a woman that enticed Adam into taking that fatal bite. That doesn't take away the fact that he disobeyed any more than a woman's beauty takes away from my lustful thoughts.

Talk about your Catch-22!

There is a big difference because the heart issues are not the same.

One sin issue (wearing revealing clothing to seduce men) which the Bible talks a great deal about those kind of women and for young men to steer clear of them. But not ever scantily clad women is that women. There can be many fully clothed women who are.

The other sin issue (wearing revealing clothing because "Daddy, never paid much attention") speaks to more of sin that comes from a woundedness.

Both, are still sin, yes, but my point is that a women who wears revealing clothing can only be judged by God because only God can see the pain and trauma that causes one to sin.

The Bible says that men and women are the same. Equals. That means that we are equal in Christ and that we are equal in sin. No saint is above another saint, and no sinner is above another sinner.

This men are this, women are that mentality has got to go!

A man's focus should not be on "Is God going to charge that scantily dressed women with sin for tempting me" but "Oh, Lord, help me to make a covenent before my eyes lest I sin against You."

The women in the Middle-East are covered in tent-like cloths with only their eyes showing, and guess what? Those women still endure rape!

The problem lies in the hearts of men and women, and only God can judge who will be charged with sin.

It's no problem for the Christian who's sins have been covered by Christ. On judgement day God will look upon the Bride of Christ and say, "What sin?" ;)

 

[jasoncran]

There is a big difference because the heart issues are not the same.

One sin issue (wearing revealing clothing to seduce men) which the Bible talks a great deal about those kind of women and for young men to steer clear of them. But not ever scantily clad women is that women. There can be many fully clothed women who are.

The other sin issue (wearing revealing clothing because "Daddy, never paid much attention") speaks to more of sin that comes from a woundedness.

Both, are still sin, yes, but my point is that a women who wears revealing clothing can only be judged by God because only God can see the pain and trauma that causes one to sin.

The Bible says that men and women are the same. Equals. That means that we are equal in Christ and that we are equal in sin. No saint is above another saint, and no sinner is above another sinner.

This men are this, women are that mentality has got to go!

A man's focus should not be on "Is God going to charge that scantily dressed women with sin for tempting me" but "Oh, Lord, help me to make a covenent before my eyes lest I sin against You."

The women in the Middle-East are covered in tent-like cloths with only their eyes showing, and guess what? Those women still endure rape!

The problem lies in the hearts of men and women, and only God can judge who will be charged with sin.

It's no problem for the Christian who's sins have been covered by Christ. On judgement day God will look upon the Bride of Christ and say, "What sin?" ;)

the act or rape has nothing to do with lust, if so only the attractive girls would be raped.

i hate that myth as it very hard to for women who arent attractive to think they were raped in the first place because the guy was desperate.

date rape is what you make be thinking of but that is because the guy forces himself on the girl when she said no and that has nothing again to do with them being attractive,as its happens to the atractive ones or the unattractive ones.

what i mean by this is that in the heat of the moment the girl is sayin no and the guy wont take it and you are saying that its her fault!

not so.

in acourt of law seductive clothing worn by women isnt an excuse for a rapist nor valid defense

 

[theLords]

the act or rape has nothing to do with lust, if so only the attractive girls would be raped.

i hate that myth as it very hard to for women who arent attractive to think they were raped in the first place because the guy was desperate.

Rape has everything to do with lust.

What is lust? A greedy, unholy desire for something.

What is rape? A greedy, unholy desire for sex.

Children, Women, and Men are raped. It has everything to do with lust.

Which is preciously the point. A woman wearing a tent and a bag over her head can be raped because a man has lust in his heart for sex.

 

[jasoncran]

Rape has everything to do with lust.

What is lust? A greedy, unholy desire for something.

What is rape? A greedy, unholy desire for sex.

Children, Women, and Men are raped. It has everything to do with lust.

Which is preciously the point. A woman wearing a tent and a bag over her head can be raped because a man has lust in his heart for sex.

actually no, i have been trained on what causes rape as i am a military police, yes i have no doubt that is a factor but not in all.

why then do mean sodomise men?

why then do women rape men?

80 yrs old women get raped all the time


here you go.

The Truth Behind the Myths

 

[theLords]

actually no, i have been trained on what causes rape as i am a military police, yes i have no doubt that is a factor but not in all.

why then do mean sodomise men?

why then do women rape men?

80 yrs old women get raped all the time


here you go.

The Truth Behind the Myths

I completely agree that there are also other issues like power, but to say lust is not one of them is wrong.

 

[Igor]

What is the definition of "lust"? What is the definition of "adultery"? The real definitions. Not just what you think it is or what you have "always heard" it is.

I think with the proper definitions of these words, we will find that not every time a man looks at a woman he finds attractive, and fantasizes about her, he is not necessarily lusting or committing adultery with her in his heart. And when he does, well, thank God for the sacrifice of his son for our sins and "let him who is without sin cast the first stone"!

 

[Sam21]

Rape has everything to do with lust.

What is lust? A greedy, unholy desire for something.

What is rape? A greedy, unholy desire for sex.

Children, Women, and Men are raped. It has everything to do with lust.

Which is preciously the point. A woman wearing a tent and a bag over her head can be raped because a man has lust in his heart for sex.

As strange as it may seem the definition for LUST is not an unholy desire for something. To be truthful lust CAN mean an unholy desire for something but it does not HAVE to mean that. Jesus said to His disciples, with LUST I have LUSTED to eat this meal with you(last supper). The translaters decided to use the word DESIRE so that it would sound better, the word translated LUST is simply a word that means strong desire, what makes it good or bad is what is strongly desired.

 

[Mike]

This might be a "chicken or the egg" argument, but anyone with pre-teen or teen-aged girls knows the problem with shopping for clothing. Are they selling what the public is demanding, or are is there an element that is promoting the options available? I don't do much shopping, but when I do, I witness first hand the frustration that my wife has whenever she does. In going through the racks of clothing, we are limited to about 10% - 15% of the clothing in approving what we will allow our girls to wear.

And this leads me to the OP. Girls younger and younger are wearing clothing that makes a guy go :o. Here's what really gets me (and as a father I'll never allow), printing on the tush. If I'm out somewhere, it's only natural for my eyes to be drawn on something written, and it's usually too late when I realize it's the back side of a girl, and she's only a young teen. :bigfrown I can't imagine what goes through a parent's mind when they allow their teenage girl to wear pants that boldly say "TRAMP" on the back side. Girls are brought up with this culture and take it into their adulthood. I've been on a few mission trips to Brazil; not the hotty parts of Rio, but the poor and presumably conservative areas. I can say it took a lot of self-checking to be in a culture where every-day dress is like a trip to a salsa bar.

WIP, I empathize with your OP, and I think our young girls are being driven into the provocative dressing that has become all to common.

 

[handy]

Oh Mike, how well I know....it is so hard to clothes shop for a young girl who wants to be fashionable. My daughter is now 13, and she truly wants to be fashionable. I don't blame her, I did too at her age, but boy...

When Jesus said what He said about looking upon a woman with lust being adultery, I truly do not believe He was referring to the kinds of thoughts that go through a man's head when an attractive woman walks by (no matter how she's dressed) or the kind of stray thoughts that go through a woman's head when an attractive man walks by, because no matter how much Christians like to think otherwise, women get those thoughts too. We really do.

The sin isn't in the thought itself, because the thought is temptation and temptation isn't sin.

What is sin, is when the tempting thought isn't taken captive, recognized as the temptation that it is and put out of one's mind. If Steve and I are out and a sweet young thing who is hostess of the restaurant is wearing a skin-tight blouse with a number of button's undone causes a thought or two to stray through his mind, I'm not divorcing him for adultery...but, if for the rest of the night, in his heart his is constantly thinking about her, how she would be if he could be with her, what she would look like, .then he has passed from facing some tempting thoughts to falling into lustful thinking of someone other than me. And, I wouldn't take to kindly to that...

So, deal with tempting thought in reality...meaning realize that tempting thoughts, just like any other temptation is not sin, it's an invitation to sin...and turn that invitation down and go kiss your wife.

end of part one...

 

[handy]

Now for part two...the question that has been brought up as to just what constitutes dressing seductively.

We go to a small church and the youth group consists of my daughter and son, a boy my son's age, a girl my daughter's age and three boy's my daughter's age. One of the jr high boy's is autistic and sort of lives on his own plane. The other two take turns trying to out maneuver each other over which is going to be my daughter's boyfriend. It's all rather innocent and sweet, and we don't leave 'em alone for a second! ;)

As I said earlier, my daughter wants to dress fashionably and what passes for fashion for 13 year old girls is hardly appropriate...not for church nor for any where else this mom says.

So, she sort of has developed her own style which takes the lacy camis and spaghetti straps and all that stuff, and layers hoodies and long blouses and tee's so that she is wearing the current styles but everything is covered. This over pants that are either mid-rise or at waist, skinny jeans with boots in the winter, bell-bottoms with sandals during warmer weather. All in all, she looks fashionable enough and yet it passes muster with me as far as modesty. A lot of the girls at her new school beg her to tell where she shops and more than one mom has asked me the same.

And I thought I was pretty strict.

I guess not so. One of the boys has a Romanian grandmother. And, she's definitely "old country". She doesn't speak a word of English, but when the boy developed an interest in my daughter and started to follow her around at church and started to call every night, suddenly Viola can't turn around without Grandma standing right there. With a big frown on her face. The phone calls stopped and the boy had to explain that his parents weren't going to allow him to call her anymore. Seems in the "old country" my daughter would be considered quite the slut. She wears make-up (not caked on, she and I work diligently to make sure the make up is worn correctly), pants and sleeves and the cami worn high enough and the hoodie zipped high enough so that she's covered. All very modest by my standard, all very slutty by theirs.

What is considered modest can be a very subjective thing. There is what is obviously inappropriate, a swath of skin between the top of the pants and the bottom of the shirt, spaghetti straps with no covering, bras exposed, cleavage hanging out, bums hanging out...sure, I don't think anyone would think that is modest.

But, once that is dealt with, where does it end. Guy A might find the fact that she wears skinny jeans with boots up to the knee sexy...Guy B might find the lace cami under the hoodie sexy...Guy C might find the hoodie itself sexy.

We cannot read the mind of every man out there, and we shouldn't need to. A woman has a responsibility to dress modestly according to the mores of her time.

But, men have the responsibility to take every thought captive. Especially in the case of a woman who isn't dressing seductively, but he winds up with a seductive thought anyway.

Keeping in mind that we are to respect each other in love is helpful to.

 

[bibleMAN]

If a woman dresses seductively how can I help it but to look at her with lust in my heart? She has coerced me into a sinful thought before I could even react and now I must repent.

Not that I'm trying to shift guilt, as I know the guilt is mine, but is it just as sinful for women to dress in a manner that invokes men to sin?

You CAN condition yourself not to have those lustful thoughts. It is possible. In the same way I used to drink alot, but since becoming a Christian I put it out of my mind for sooo very long that the desire for it just snapped and now I don't see it or feel temptation for it in the same way at all. I conditioned myself not to want it anymore.

I think it's not a woman's fault when YOU sin, no matter how she dresses. If she is TRYING to make people sin then yeah, I think God would see that as a sin. But that still doesn't exonerate the luster from his lust. Like someone else said, most guys have lustful thoughts NO matter how the women is dressed anyway. They think becuase they "feel" it they they can't control it.. and that is not true.

We are the only one in control of ourselves and our thoughts.

 

[WIP]

You CAN condition yourself not to have those lustful thoughts. It is possible. In the same way I used to drink alot, but since becoming a Christian I put it out of my mind for sooo very long that the desire for it just snapped and now I don't see it or feel temptation for it in the same way at all. I conditioned myself not to want it anymore.

I think it's not a woman's fault when YOU sin, no matter how she dresses. If she is TRYING to make people sin then yeah, I think God would see that as a sin. But that still doesn't exonerate the luster from his lust. Like someone else said, most guys have lustful thoughts NO matter how the women is dressed anyway. They think becuase they "feel" it they they can't control it.. and that is not true.

I don't think you can condition yourself to totally not feel lustful emotion simply because it is part of our being to feel these things. What one can condition himself to do is react more quickly to control himself. In other words, put the thoughts out of your mind immediately. That's what I mean when I say that she has coerced me into the sinful thought before I could react.

I never said or even indicated that it was the woman's fault that I sin. I did say this, "I know the guilt is mine." It wasn't Eve's fault that Adam tasted the fruit either. The sin was his and his alone.

 

[handy]

I'm going to repeat myself...I do that occasionally, irritates my kids to no end! ;)

No one can "coerce" a sinful thought into your head. Through careless dress a woman might put a tempting thought into your head...it's up to you whether or not to allow the temptation to become sin.

 

[jasoncran]

if you are on a beach and walking and theres a nude beach up ahead are you going to continue to head in that direction, fully knowing that is a lust issue for you?

if you do and look and think etc,then its on you.

 

[WIP]

I'm going to repeat myself...I do that occasionally, irritates my kids to no end! ;)

No one can "coerce" a sinful thought into your head. Through careless dress a woman might put a tempting thought into your head...it's up to you whether or not to allow the temptation to become sin.

You're right. Coerce was the wrong word to use. I should have looked up its meaning before I used it. Maybe "entice" is closer to what I mean? Please note that I am not trying to suggest that women are somehow or in some way at fault. The Bible does warn that we are not to cause others to sin. If a woman dresses seductively knowing full well that in doing so she instigates lustful thought in others, is she not causing others to sin? Remember that my reaction to the visual happens without forethought. As a result I am thrown into the effect of the sin first and I must stop it and repent immediately.

I expect that women might have a difficult time understanding this. From what I've read, research shows women are less vulnerable or affected by visual stimuli than men. That explains why most pornographic material is aimed at stimulating the mail population.