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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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How can we be sure of our salvation?
There is one verse that tells us how we can be sure. Peter said:
Did you catch that? Peter says, if YE DO these things. Did he mean the HS in us doing it for us? No, he said clearly, if YE DO. What, then is the result if we do? Peter says that we shall never fall. What would be the opposite, then, if we fail to do? It is supposed that we would fall. Do certain things, and never fall, or fail to do certain things, and probably fall. That is what Peter is telling us. Then He goes on to say that, not only will we not fall, but that we will have a grand entrance into the everlasting kingdom of Jesus the Christ! Is that a sure salvation? It sure sounds like it to me.
But let's not get the cart before the horse. What are the certain things that Peter said we must do? I am so glad you ask!
1.) We partake of the divine nature of God
2.) We give all diligence: this is something we do by our own will.
3.) We add to your faith virtue: Again, we do this - not the HS in us.
4.) We add to virtue knowledge: Who does it? Yep! We do!
5.) We add to knowledge temperance: Who does it? US - WE do it!
6.) We add to temperance patience: you are catching on! WE do it!
7.) We add to patience godliness: We chose to do this.
8.) We add to godliness brotherly kindness: It is an act of our human will.
9.) We add brotherly kindness, charity: again, we chose to do this. God does not do any of these things for us.
If we do these things, we "shall neither be barren nor unfruitful."
IF we fail to do these things: we are blind. So Peter urges us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
Sorry, Heidi, but I am sure of my salvation; but at the same time, I know that if I choose, I can walk right out from under God's wonder plan of salvation, and my name can be blotted out of the book of life. I will never choose to do that, for I have followed Peter's Perscription for eternal life!
Now, before you go off on me again, this is not pride. However, I do know Whom I have believèd, and am persuaded that He is able, to keep that which I’ve committed, unto Him against that day.
Coop
There is one verse that tells us how we can be sure. Peter said:
Did you catch that? Peter says, if YE DO these things. Did he mean the HS in us doing it for us? No, he said clearly, if YE DO. What, then is the result if we do? Peter says that we shall never fall. What would be the opposite, then, if we fail to do? It is supposed that we would fall. Do certain things, and never fall, or fail to do certain things, and probably fall. That is what Peter is telling us. Then He goes on to say that, not only will we not fall, but that we will have a grand entrance into the everlasting kingdom of Jesus the Christ! Is that a sure salvation? It sure sounds like it to me.
But let's not get the cart before the horse. What are the certain things that Peter said we must do? I am so glad you ask!
1.) We partake of the divine nature of God
2.) We give all diligence: this is something we do by our own will.
3.) We add to your faith virtue: Again, we do this - not the HS in us.
4.) We add to virtue knowledge: Who does it? Yep! We do!
5.) We add to knowledge temperance: Who does it? US - WE do it!
6.) We add to temperance patience: you are catching on! WE do it!
7.) We add to patience godliness: We chose to do this.
8.) We add to godliness brotherly kindness: It is an act of our human will.
9.) We add brotherly kindness, charity: again, we chose to do this. God does not do any of these things for us.
If we do these things, we "shall neither be barren nor unfruitful."
IF we fail to do these things: we are blind. So Peter urges us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
Sorry, Heidi, but I am sure of my salvation; but at the same time, I know that if I choose, I can walk right out from under God's wonder plan of salvation, and my name can be blotted out of the book of life. I will never choose to do that, for I have followed Peter's Perscription for eternal life!
Now, before you go off on me again, this is not pride. However, I do know Whom I have believèd, and am persuaded that He is able, to keep that which I’ve committed, unto Him against that day.
Coop
Re: How can we be sure of our salvation?
You cannot take one verse and interpret it without taking all scripture into account. So put Peter's verse together with:
"It is the Father living in me that is doing the work".
"I can do nothing with the Father."
"No one can snatch them out of my hand."
"For I'm convinced that nothing can separate us from the love of God."
""He who began a good work in you will carry it on to competion."
"The one who is in your is greater than the one in the world."
"You have become a new creation in Christ Jesus."
"I will never abandon you."
"For there will be false prophets to deceive even the elect....if that were possible.""My true sheep listen to my voice."
"You have received an inheritance that will never perish, spoil or fade."
"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory."
These scriptures do not lie so your interpretation is a false one because it contradicts these and many other scriptures. But put them together and what do you get? You get that God will make sure that those who have the Holy Spirit will complete the task that he prepared for us in advance.
The NT was written to show us what God wants for our lives and those who have the Holy Spirit in us are compelled to follow God's leading because the one who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world. But those who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me" will indeed fall away because as Jesus said, their hearts have not been changed by the Holy Spirit. So please read the parable of the sower and you will see who the NT is talking about when it tells us that some will fall away. Only thos who have no root. And the root is the Holy Spirit because once the Holy Spirit resides in us, the devil is not stronger than him, period.
lecoop said:
You cannot take one verse and interpret it without taking all scripture into account. So put Peter's verse together with:
"It is the Father living in me that is doing the work".
"I can do nothing with the Father."
"No one can snatch them out of my hand."
"For I'm convinced that nothing can separate us from the love of God."
""He who began a good work in you will carry it on to competion."
"The one who is in your is greater than the one in the world."
"You have become a new creation in Christ Jesus."
"I will never abandon you."
"For there will be false prophets to deceive even the elect....if that were possible.""My true sheep listen to my voice."
"You have received an inheritance that will never perish, spoil or fade."
"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory."
These scriptures do not lie so your interpretation is a false one because it contradicts these and many other scriptures. But put them together and what do you get? You get that God will make sure that those who have the Holy Spirit will complete the task that he prepared for us in advance.
The NT was written to show us what God wants for our lives and those who have the Holy Spirit in us are compelled to follow God's leading because the one who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world. But those who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me" will indeed fall away because as Jesus said, their hearts have not been changed by the Holy Spirit. So please read the parable of the sower and you will see who the NT is talking about when it tells us that some will fall away. Only thos who have no root. And the root is the Holy Spirit because once the Holy Spirit resides in us, the devil is not stronger than him, period.
Re: How can we be sure of our salvation?
Heidi, anyone can insert a list of scriptures, as there are many on each side of this argument. Your argument is that if someone "falls away" then they were never there to begin with - never a true born again believer. With one older brother that was on Calvin's side and another older brother that was on Arminius's side, I have probably been on both sides if this argument as much or more than any other. I struggled to understand both sides, for I was on each side for years of my life.
I think what clinched it for me, was when a very well know man had a visit from Jesus the Christ, that lasted for over an hour. Jesus came to instruct him in the word. Part of what they covered was this very subject. This man saw a vision of someone he knew, and in the vision this person was oppressed by the devil. Eventually this person started listening to the lies of the devil, and the demon became a black dot in the mind of this person. Jesus said that now this person was obsessed. First opressed, then obsessed. Then this man saw this person in the vision, go out into sin. Finally the day came, that this person screamed at God to leave them alone! Then the man saw the black dot leave the mind, and go into the spirit of this person. The man seeing the vision, ask if he should cast this demon out. Jesus told him, no, you cannot. It is too late. The person is now possessed. The man seeing this vision was really upset, for he knew this person in the vision. He told Jesus, "I just cannot accept this unless you show me scripture." So Jesus took him to Hebrews 6, and went through the verses with him one at a time. "Tasted of the heavenly gift," Jesus told him, meant being born again. "Made partakers of the Holy Ghost," meant receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. "have tasted the good word of God," Jesus explained, was becoming a mature Christian that enjoys the word of God. Finally, "tasted the powers of the world to come" meant that power gifts were working through this individual. This, Jesus identified as the gift of miracles, or the gift of faith, or gifts of healing. This person in the vision had the power of these gift flow throught them to benefit others.
Jesus explained that this scripture shows a growth, from someone newly born again, to a mature Christian. Then Jesus said, if that mature Christian should fall away, just as this person in the vision did, it would be too late. It would be impossible for them to come back. Jesus then told the man, "if she had been oppressed at the moment that she screamed at me to leave her alone, I would have still forgiven her, but she was not being oppressed. She was just tired of the Holy Spirit trying to woo her back, and she screamed at me to leave her alone."
I have heard this man - the one that had Jesus come and teach him, tell this several times. I have heard him say it like this.
"I am telling you, that Jesus Christ, the head of the church, came and sat down in front of me. I cannot make it any more clear than that."
I know that we cannot equate any vision with the written word. However, when Jesus, the head of the church, explains the written word, in a vision, I think we can believe it! This man saw someone that was in the ministry, born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, fall away, and Jesus told him that according to Hebrews six, there was no hope. They could never come back. It would be impossible, as Hebrews says.
For the readers, don't believe this because I have written it. Go and read these verses in Hebrews yourselves. It is possible to fall away, after being born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. It is possible because the word of God says it is possible.
This is why we must believe what Peter wrote, and follow what He said, so that our salvation is sure! (see the above post about what Peter said.)
Coop
Heidi said:
Heidi, anyone can insert a list of scriptures, as there are many on each side of this argument. Your argument is that if someone "falls away" then they were never there to begin with - never a true born again believer. With one older brother that was on Calvin's side and another older brother that was on Arminius's side, I have probably been on both sides if this argument as much or more than any other. I struggled to understand both sides, for I was on each side for years of my life.
I think what clinched it for me, was when a very well know man had a visit from Jesus the Christ, that lasted for over an hour. Jesus came to instruct him in the word. Part of what they covered was this very subject. This man saw a vision of someone he knew, and in the vision this person was oppressed by the devil. Eventually this person started listening to the lies of the devil, and the demon became a black dot in the mind of this person. Jesus said that now this person was obsessed. First opressed, then obsessed. Then this man saw this person in the vision, go out into sin. Finally the day came, that this person screamed at God to leave them alone! Then the man saw the black dot leave the mind, and go into the spirit of this person. The man seeing the vision, ask if he should cast this demon out. Jesus told him, no, you cannot. It is too late. The person is now possessed. The man seeing this vision was really upset, for he knew this person in the vision. He told Jesus, "I just cannot accept this unless you show me scripture." So Jesus took him to Hebrews 6, and went through the verses with him one at a time. "Tasted of the heavenly gift," Jesus told him, meant being born again. "Made partakers of the Holy Ghost," meant receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. "have tasted the good word of God," Jesus explained, was becoming a mature Christian that enjoys the word of God. Finally, "tasted the powers of the world to come" meant that power gifts were working through this individual. This, Jesus identified as the gift of miracles, or the gift of faith, or gifts of healing. This person in the vision had the power of these gift flow throught them to benefit others.
Jesus explained that this scripture shows a growth, from someone newly born again, to a mature Christian. Then Jesus said, if that mature Christian should fall away, just as this person in the vision did, it would be too late. It would be impossible for them to come back. Jesus then told the man, "if she had been oppressed at the moment that she screamed at me to leave her alone, I would have still forgiven her, but she was not being oppressed. She was just tired of the Holy Spirit trying to woo her back, and she screamed at me to leave her alone."
I have heard this man - the one that had Jesus come and teach him, tell this several times. I have heard him say it like this.
"I am telling you, that Jesus Christ, the head of the church, came and sat down in front of me. I cannot make it any more clear than that."
I know that we cannot equate any vision with the written word. However, when Jesus, the head of the church, explains the written word, in a vision, I think we can believe it! This man saw someone that was in the ministry, born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, fall away, and Jesus told him that according to Hebrews six, there was no hope. They could never come back. It would be impossible, as Hebrews says.
For the readers, don't believe this because I have written it. Go and read these verses in Hebrews yourselves. It is possible to fall away, after being born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. It is possible because the word of God says it is possible.
This is why we must believe what Peter wrote, and follow what He said, so that our salvation is sure! (see the above post about what Peter said.)
Coop
Thanks lecoop
Heidi - just something from my perspective - not so much on the topic but more to do with an approach for having a fruitful discussion.
You see I explained a couple of scriptures to you and your response was to quote verses and then say things like, “do you think it was another lie.†You know I had to put up with this type of approach from a certain moderator, who because I didn’t agree with his theology, accused me of being aligned to a cult and not being born again. The reason I quote scripture is to give the reader an understanding of the reason for my beliefs and to show why I believe they are in line with each other. So I convey what I need to say, and use scripture to support it. Often the response would be a denial of what I was saying and then lists of statements and scripture which I guess was supposed to override whatever I was saying.
That approach is not going to be fruitful to anyone so may I suggest that we try a different one. You have made a statement that you believe in a certain doctrine or theology. I have proffered an argument or statement or question for you, which shows I have a different understanding to yours. May I ask then that you answer the points raised first of all, before launching into quotes from scripture which although important do not (from my perspective) sway the argument. Now you may disagree with another's view of the meaning of certain scriptures but can you please show the courtesy of explaining what you believe they mean rather than throwing down your list of scriptures as if to trump those offered by the other person.
Thanks
Heidi - just something from my perspective - not so much on the topic but more to do with an approach for having a fruitful discussion.
You see I explained a couple of scriptures to you and your response was to quote verses and then say things like, “do you think it was another lie.†You know I had to put up with this type of approach from a certain moderator, who because I didn’t agree with his theology, accused me of being aligned to a cult and not being born again. The reason I quote scripture is to give the reader an understanding of the reason for my beliefs and to show why I believe they are in line with each other. So I convey what I need to say, and use scripture to support it. Often the response would be a denial of what I was saying and then lists of statements and scripture which I guess was supposed to override whatever I was saying.
That approach is not going to be fruitful to anyone so may I suggest that we try a different one. You have made a statement that you believe in a certain doctrine or theology. I have proffered an argument or statement or question for you, which shows I have a different understanding to yours. May I ask then that you answer the points raised first of all, before launching into quotes from scripture which although important do not (from my perspective) sway the argument. Now you may disagree with another's view of the meaning of certain scriptures but can you please show the courtesy of explaining what you believe they mean rather than throwing down your list of scriptures as if to trump those offered by the other person.
Thanks
J
John the Baptist
Guest
:fadein: (K.J. version!)
Until it can be said that you have died in the faith, (Hebrews 11:13) it can not be said 'Truthfully' (2 Corinthians 4:2) that [any] are 'matured' in the 'finished' faith! Philippians 3:12-17
And if one can be seen living when Christ returns with death 'IN' the 'FAITH" starring one in their Face? then Romans 8:1 must find these ones being the Hebrews 12:4-8 ones!
Notice verse 8 in particular with verse 6! I suspect that if we are these ones, we will finally know who it is that really loves Christ, huh? "IF-IF-IF [you] LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"!
And we read daily of ones claim to be Born Again, who make NO PROFESSION of Christ's REQUIREMENT!
: And how can one be Born of the Spirit and not be LED (Romans 8:14) of the SPIRIT to 'see' this? Surely it is not possible! (unless they had already came to the Hebrews 6:6 sad fate?)
For one cannot be Born Again and not understand Christ's Words of Luke 6:46-49!!
:
One more option?? they are [all fast asleep] as in the Matthew 25's Parable!
---John
Until it can be said that you have died in the faith, (Hebrews 11:13) it can not be said 'Truthfully' (2 Corinthians 4:2) that [any] are 'matured' in the 'finished' faith! Philippians 3:12-17
And if one can be seen living when Christ returns with death 'IN' the 'FAITH" starring one in their Face? then Romans 8:1 must find these ones being the Hebrews 12:4-8 ones!
Notice verse 8 in particular with verse 6! I suspect that if we are these ones, we will finally know who it is that really loves Christ, huh? "IF-IF-IF [you] LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"!
And we read daily of ones claim to be Born Again, who make NO PROFESSION of Christ's REQUIREMENT!
: And how can one be Born of the Spirit and not be LED (Romans 8:14) of the SPIRIT to 'see' this? Surely it is not possible! (unless they had already came to the Hebrews 6:6 sad fate?)For one cannot be Born Again and not understand Christ's Words of Luke 6:46-49!!
: One more option?? they are [all fast asleep] as in the Matthew 25's Parable!
---John
D
dandirom
Guest
Heidi said:
And if you deliberately sin and insult the Spirit of Grace after receiving the knowledge of the truth, and if you make the member of Christ, His temple, one with 'an harlot' are you saying that same Spirit of Grace will still continue to live in that person? Jesus himself said that the ONLY time we have the Spirit is when we obey, 'If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.' God is merciful but He is also Just. He cannot, He will not become an accomplice to sin. His grace cannot be used as a license for sin.
J
Jay T
Guest
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13.Asaph said:
If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away.
Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed.
Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome.
But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30.
Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them.
We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people.
In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance.
There must be deep, faithful searching of heart.
The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another.
Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth.
Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.