One result of being in union with Christ

[JLB]

Please explain how one would come to this conclusion because the wording doesn't allow such an understanding. What is clear is that "He NOW HAS reconciled you".

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith... Colossians 1:19-23

• yet now He has reconciled... if
• yet now He has reconciled... if indeed you continue in the faith

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please explain how one would come to this conclusion because the wording doesn't allow such an understanding. What is clear is that "He NOW HAS reconciled you"."

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith... Colossians 1:19-23

• yet now He has reconciled... if
• yet now He has reconciled... if indeed you continue in the faithJLB

1. The phrase "yet now He has reconciled" in v.21 is a done deal. It is aorist tense. It's not a progressive action. There is NO time element in the aorist tense. It's just a "point in time". Therefore, a done deal.
2. And Paul made clear HOW they have been reconciled by the phrase in v.22 highlighted in green. iow, we are reconciled through His death. Also taught in Rom 5:10 "For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
3. The phrase "if indeed you continue in the faith" is NOT connected to "He has reconciled" from v.21 as is being claimed.
4. Instead, it is directly connected to v.22, by the blue words.

Therefore, your explanation didn't support your claim. All it did was to ignore v.22 completely and trying to directly connect v.21 to v.23.

 

[Papa Zoom]

• That is true for the example of wheat and tares.
• A tare was called the seed of the wicked one.
• A tare will never be wheat, no matter what it calls itself.

• The parable of the Sower, reveals a different truth.
• The parable of the Sower, concerns the Gospel Message, and the types of heart conditions of those saved, and those not saved.
• The parable of the Sower, concerns unbelievers, who will become believers, and also unbelievers who never believe.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

• The first group of unbelievers never believed.

Jesus Himself set's the requirement for being saved.

...lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved

• The second group is different from the first group, in that they believed.

...who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Either a person is saved when they believe or not.

If you believe there is more a person must do to be saved, than believe, then please share what is that a person must do, other than believe, to be saved.




JLB

I don't see it that way. You can't be saved for a while. Not if Jesus is able to keep you. Not if no one will snatch them out of His hands. Taken from isolated contexts, one can make any theology they like. From the whole, one can see that if a person is saved, they are sealed by God and kept, able to stand, by Jesus.
One that "believes for a while" doesn't have a sincere belief. Thus they are not saved to begin with. True faith isn't a fad.

 

[JLB]

I don't see it that way. You can't be saved for a while

Ok, then these that believed for a while, must have needed to something else than to believe.

Could you please share what more these who believe for while should have done?

Taken from isolated contexts, one can make any theology they like.

I agree.

As you can see Luke 8:11-15 is not an isolated context, but covers an entire parable about 4 different groups of unbeliever's who were presented with the Gospel.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

From the whole, one can see that if a person is saved, they are sealed by God and kept, able to stand, by Jesus.

Ok great, please share the scripture for this belief.

What causes them to receive this seal of approval?



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Ok, then these that believed for a while, must have needed to something else than to believe.

Could you please share what more these who believe for while should have done?

Well we don't do anything. John 6:44 Unless God calls us by His Spirit.
Believers are followers. Followers follow. John 14:21, John 14:23, John 15:10, 1 John 2:3 As I said in a previous post: "One simply cannot choose to life a life that isn't following Jesus and yet claim to be a follower. It's not even logical."

I agree.

As you can see Luke 8:11-15 is not an isolated context, but covers an entire parable about 4 different groups of unbeliever's who were presented with the Gospel.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

Yes but in light of all other references to salvation, when taken in the whole, there is a clear indication that the saved will be kept by the power of God. You can't slip in and out of salvation. There is no biblical teaching for this.

Ok great, please share the scripture for this belief.

Jude 1:24, 1 Peter 1:4, and this I quote in full: “2 Cor 1:21-22 is a good example of such a clear promise. “Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”

If one is to make a biblical case for losing salvation, they have to address verses like this. They have to explain how God who makes us stand firm can fail at that with some of us. How God, after putting the Spirit in our hearts, fails at His promise to guarantee what is to come. There are other examples as well. From another post of mine: "God makes us stand firm in Christ. He sets HIS seal of ownership upon us. He puts HIS Spirit in our hearts which guarantees what is to come. How then can it also be true that it's possible not to stand firm in Christ, to lose God's seal of ownership, and to have His Spirit, Who is guaranteeing our salvation, put out of us? This makes no sense. You can't both be kept by God and not kept by God. No, if you are saved, God will make you stand. Your life will be different. You will seek HIS will for your life. You will act like a new creature in Christ. If you claim to be a believer but live like an Esau (profane and a fornicator) then you are not in Christ to begin with."

What causes them to receive this seal of approval?

God does. There are none righteous. All fall short of the glory of God. We can add nothing to the Cross nor take anything away. We bring nothing except that which God gives to us. So now I am holy. But not my holiness, His. But it is me who is holy in His sight. Because of Christ.

Finally: I am not without some sympathies to your position. I have a childhood friend who grew up a non believer but as a young man came to faith. He became a pastor and I attended the church he pastored. He moved to attend MacArthur's Master's college and was involved in missions and by all appearances, a changed man. But he's now divorced, having cheated on his wife and it's he who sought the divorce. He took up playing guitar and has been playing in bars and living a completely different life. He's cut me out of his life. I don't know what to make of it. He won't respond to my messages and his ex-wife for some reason ignores me too (although she's friends with my wife on FB). Perhaps the last chapter isn't written yet.

If I could talk to him I might be able to better understand the situation.

Another pastor friend had an affair and lost his ministry. But he and his wife put things back together. She forgave him and he repented. He died of complications from hip surgery a year ago but I had kept in touch. He learned a lot from his moral failing. He fell off the horse but got back on.

What about Bart Ehrman? He lost his faith too. I don't know. Franklin Templeton lost his as well. But I keep in mind that stories like these are not Scripture. If the Bible say God will keep you, he will keep you. For those that left the faith, something else is going on. I suspect it has to do with this:
1 John 2:19King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Papa Zoom]

I know what you're all thinking!

 

[civilwarbuff]

Ok great, please share the scripture for this belief.

What causes them to receive this seal of approval?

Eph 1
13 In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

14 Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[JLB]

Eph 1
13 In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

14 Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

• Just trying to understand your position, do you believe these in group 2, who believed for a while, are saved or not?

The reason I asked, is some who believe the way you do, think that these remain saved because they believed, while others do not believe they were ever saved even though they believe.



13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• So if we have God's seal of approval, the Holy Spirit, because we believed, then what happens if we no longer believe, and return to the life of unbelieving.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8




JLB

 

[JLB]

I know what you're all thinking!

I'm thinking i wish you would post your answer to my question.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



Here it is again -

Ok, then these that believed for a while, must have needed to something else than to believe.

Could you please share what more these who believe for while should have done?


Do you believe these in group 2, who believed for a while, are saved or not?



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm thinking i wish you would post your answer to my question.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



Here it is again -

Ok, then these that believed for a while, must have needed to something else than to believe.

Could you please share what more these who believe for while should have done?



JLB

That's the point. They didn't really believe. It didn't take root in their heart. Do you think everyone who has ever claimed to be a believer actually was? And why is it instead of dealing the biblical evidence I offer for my position, you simply throw out more questions? Your question above was actually answered with a teaching from Scripture.

You don't do anything for your salvation. You can't do anything. You are powerless apart from God. This is clear biblical teaching. Unless the Spirit of God calls a person they cannot be saved. You are kept in the faith by the power of God. But there are those that reject God's plan of salvation. They resist the Holy Spirit's call on their lives.

How about you address every single one of those passages I offered? If you don't agree with me, fine. But show from Scripture how those verses I posted don't support my position.

 

[civilwarbuff]

• Just trying to understand your position, do you believe these in group 2, who believed for a while, are saved or not?

The reason I asked, is some who believe the way you do, think that these remain saved because they believed, while others do not believe they were ever saved even though they believe.



13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• So if we have God's seal of approval, the Holy Spirit, because we believed, then what happens if we no longer believe, and return to the life of unbelieving.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8




JLB

Actually I was responding to your response of #483.

"8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8"
I hope you are not trying to portray this verse as believers who have reneged......
Rev 21:7 The person who conquers will inherit these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."
He is speaking of non-believers here......

 

[JLB]

That's the point. They didn't really believe.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Jesus said they did in fact believe... for a while.

The problem is not with the seed, as if it couldn't make a root, but with the condition of the heart and the stony soil, which doesn't allow the roots to go deep enough to sustain the plant with moisture, during the heat of summer.


The seed did take root, as evidenced that it spouted up above the ground, but couldn't sustain itself because of the rock, not able to extend itself any further to draw moisture from the soil deeper, so when the sun came up it withered.


6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6

JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually I was responding to your response of #483.

"8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8"
I hope you are not trying to portray this verse as believers who have reneged......
Rev 21:7 The person who conquers will inherit these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."
He is speaking of non-believers here......

If a person believes for a while, then later returns to unbelieving, then brother, they do not believe anymore.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you think everyone who has ever claimed to be a believer actually was?

Not at all, but it doesn't matter what I think.


The parable of the wheat and tares teaches one principle, in which the tares will never be wheat.

The parable of the Sower teaches another.


The parable of the Sower is about unbelievers who hear the Gospel.

All 4 groups heard the Gospel Message.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.


23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
Matthew 13:19-23



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Not at all, but it doesn't matter what I think.


The parable of the wheat and tares teaches one principle, in which the tares will never be wheat.

The parable of the Sower teaches another.


The parable of the Sower is about unbelievers who hear the Gospel.

All 4 groups heard the Gospel Message.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.


23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
Matthew 13:19-23



JLB

And you still haven't dealt with the verses I offered for my view. I'm not going to reply to you until you do.

 

[JLB]

And you still haven't dealt with the verses I offered for my view. I'm not going to reply to you until you do.

Please post the number of the post where you have used scriptures, for your view?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Please explain how one would come to this conclusion because the wording doesn't allow such an understanding. What is clear is that "He NOW HAS reconciled you"."
1. The phrase "yet now He has reconciled" in v.21 is a done deal. It is aorist tense. It's not a progressive action. There is NO time element in the aorist tense. It's just a "point in time". Therefore, a done deal.
2. And Paul made clear HOW they have been reconciled by the phrase in v.22 highlighted in green. iow, we are reconciled through His death. Also taught in Rom 5:10 "For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
3. The phrase "if indeed you continue in the faith" is NOT connected to "He has reconciled" from v.21 as is being claimed.
4. Instead, it is directly connected to v.22, by the blue words.

Therefore, your explanation didn't support your claim. All it did was to ignore v.22 completely and trying to directly connect v.21 to v.23.

All the commentary in the world, as well as lexicon gymnastics will not change what is written.


The condition that must be met, according to the scriptures, for being reconciled in the present, is, IF indeed you continue in the faith.


21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23



JLB

 

[atpollard]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Here it is again -
Ok, then these that believed for a while, must have needed to something else than to believe.
Could you please share what more these who believe for while should have done?
Do you believe these in group 2, who believed for a while, are saved or not?
JLB

What is 'believed'?

James 2:14-26 [NIV]
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Some have a dead faith.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Please post the number of the post where you have used scriptures, for your view?

JLB

Well you're off the hook as I messed up the formatting. But I have posted these verses earlier and so far no one has addressed them.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-union-with-christ.68115/page-25#post-1302906

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes but in light of all other references to salvation, when taken in the whole, there is a clear indication that the saved will be kept by the power of God.

Correct.
A person has God's power as long as they continue to secure that 'keeping by the power of God' through a continuing faith (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

You can't slip in and out of salvation. There is no biblical teaching for this.

Correct.
You only get to lose it once.
There is no re-crucifying of Christ allowed.

“Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

That is the sure power of God that is secured through our faith.
The weak link is not in God's power and ability to make us firm in Christ.
The weak link is whether or not we will continue to rely on God's power through faith to make us firm in Christ.

He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”

These teach us that the matter of whether God can save us through Christ is not the thing in question. The author of Hebrews, especially, teaches us the supremacy of Christ, and that's why we can place our confidence (our faith) in God through Christ. He can't fail. The question is are we going to continue in the faith that secures the ministry of Christ that can not fail.

1 John 2:19King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Now skip down to verse 23 and 24 in that same chapter.
If these people in verse 19 left because they were never 'really' saved to begin with, why does John tell his believing audience to not do what they did, denying the Lord, but instead to continue in what they heard in the beginning and, as a result, continue to be in the Son and Father? And the issue is about eternal life, not fellowship (vs.25) as is usually argued. Doesn't sound very OSAS. It's wrong to just take vs. 19 out of the context of everything else John says.