One result of being in union with Christ

[JLB]

• Let's consider 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

So, being "born again" is "of IMPERISHABLE SEED", not perishable seed.

Yes agreed.

The problem is not the seed, but the heart.

Those who hold fast to the seed, in which it produces the intended fruit, are the ones who benefit from the seed being planted in their heart.

If the seed never is able to produce it's intended fruit, the how will the person ever benefit from the seed.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


In your mind, which of the 4 groups listed here will be saved, and why?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Let's consider 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
So, being "born again" is "of IMPERISHABLE SEED", not perishable seed."

Yes agreed.

Good to know!

The problem is not the seed, but the heart.

No, there isn't a "problem". What is clear is that those who are born again, to which you've admitted agreement, are of IMPERISHABLE SEED.

But since you've claimed a "problem", AND believe that those who have been saved, born again, can easily end up in the second death, clearly shows that you really don't agree with what Peter wrote. Not even close to what he wrote.

If there were actual agreement, then you'd also believe in eternal security, which you don't believe.

Those who hold fast to the seed, in which it produces the intended fruit, are the ones who benefit from the seed being planted in their heart.

Where does this come from? Other than from your own opinion, I mean.

If the seed never is able to produce it's intended fruit, the how will the person ever benefit from the seed.

Peter explained that our new birth is of IMPERISHABLE SEED. In contrast to our physical birth, which was of PERISHABLE SEED. Meaning we will certainly die physically, AND those who never received the gift of eternal life will also die spiritually and eternally.

So, because of our new birth, Paul calls us new creatures in 2 Cor 5:17. As new creatures, born of IMPERISHABLE SEED, means that we WILL NEVER PERISH.

Gee, that's just what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life, in John 10:28, and 3:16.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

Why bring up a parable of Jesus to address what Peter wrote? There's NO CONNECTION.

Jesus taught in parables so that "they will be ever hearing and seeing but never able to come to the truth". Even His disciples needed private tutoring to understand them.

And you're trying to build doctrine from what NO ONE during Jesus' time on earth could even understand??

In your mind, which of the 4 groups listed here will be saved, and why?

Totally off the subject, as probably a diversion, but here goes:
soil #1 was unsaved. Because the devil stole the Word away from their heart, or as Jeus said, "lest they believe and be saved".
soil #2 was saved because Jesus said they believed.
soil #3 was saved because they were described similarly to soil #2.
soil #4 was saved and was a fruit bearer.

Now, let's get back to the discussion.

 

[Jim Parker]

Please show from the Bible that eternal life can be thrown away.

I already have done so multiple times but you seem unable to understand any of them.
Why should I show you again what you do not want to see?

 

[Jim Parker]

Where is your opinion supported in Scripture?

I already gave them to you.

 

[JLB]

soil #2 was saved because Jesus said they believed.

Jesus did not say they believed.
More misquoting the scriptures from you.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These did not believe anymore, and fell away.


JLB

 

[JLB]

soil #3 was saved because they were described similarly to soil #2.

Then similarly they compare to soil #2, and ended up falling away, ie; fruitless.

These did not abide in Him and produce fruit.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

So much for OSAS.

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Please show from the Bible that eternal life can be thrown away.

I have shown you the verses which state that eternal life can be lost, discarded, etc.
You didn't agree with what they say any of the previous times I posted them.
Why do you want to see them again? (Jhn 9:27)

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please show from the Bible that eternal life can be thrown away."

I already have done so multiple times but you seem unable to understand any of them.

There are verses that say that one can actually 'throw away' their eternal life?? I don't recall that anyone has ever cited such a verse.

Why should I show you again what you do not want to see?

I would really love to see any verse that actually says one can throw away their eternal life.

I can't imagine what verse or verses that you're referring to.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"soil #2 was saved because Jesus said they believed."

Jesus did not say they believed.

Rather odd claim, since the very verse is quoted in your post, where Jesus DID say they believed.

More misquoting the scriptures from you.

You've failed to support your claim.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These did not believe anymore, and fell away.

Please explain how "believe for a while" doesn't mean that they believed. The phrase means that for a while they believed.

Your claims are specious. That's not a typo for "special", just to makie sure.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"soil #3 was saved because they were described similarly to soil #2."

Then similarly they compare to soil #2, and ended up falling away, ie; fruitless.

The issue wasn't whether the soil was "fruitless", but whether they were saved. They were saved.

These did not abide in Him and produce fruit.

OK. Which isn't relevant to the discussion of being saved.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

So much for OSAS.
JLB

Not even close to reasonable. The issue in John 15 is to bear fruit. It's what believers are called to do (Eph 2:10).

 

[FreeGrace]

I have shown you the verses which state that eternal life can be lost, discarded, etc.
You didn't agree with what they say any of the previous times I posted them.
Why do you want to see them again? (Jhn 9:27)

Only if you want to see my explanation of what they really mean.

There are absolutely no verses that plainly and directly say that salvation or eternal life can be lost.

otoh, there are absolutely clear verses about those who have believed having eternal life or never perishing. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 10:28.

 

[Jim Parker]

There are verses that say that one can actually 'throw away' their eternal life?? I don't recall that anyone has ever cited such a verse.
I would really love to see any verse that actually says one can throw away their eternal life.
I can't imagine what verse or verses that you're referring to.

I'm not surprised that you cannot recall what you don't want to know or that you can't imagine what you don't want see in the scriptures but I seriously doubt that you would "love to see" what I have already posted many times and which you have, to this point, refused to see.

But, just for grins and giggles: Part 1

JN 10:22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

From this passage and others some have concluded that it is impossible to lose one’s salvation. Is that an accurate understanding of what is taught by scripture?

What Jesus specifically said was that no one would be able to take one of his sheep out of either His hand or the Father’s hand. That means that no outside agency could overpower the might of God with which He holds His sheep secure.

That is not to say, however, that one of the sheep, by an act of his own free will, could end his relationship with God and return to his previous manner of living outside the will and fellowship of God.

We can see that this possibility described in both the Old and New Testaments.

EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

The term “righteous man” is essentially equivalent to our modern word “saved.” Jesus uses it to describe the blessed estate of those who will inherit the kingdom at the last judgment.

MT 25: 46 "And these (the wicked or “unsaved”) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (“saved”) into eternal life."

The prophet Ezekiel very clearly says that if a righteous (saved) person goes back to practicing detestable things then his “salvation” (righteousness) will not be remembered and he will die. (Certainly we may understand a death of the soul by this statement as it doesn’t take a Holy Spirit inspired prophet to know that anyone would die physically.)

The same situation of a person who was saved but returns to his former manner of life is spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, (photisthentas) who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

In verse 4, the writer of Hebrews describes a “saved” person by describing him as having “once been enlightened.” That is a term used by the early church to describe a person who had been baptized into the church. Thayer’s explains “photisthentas” as “to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge.”

What is the “heavenly gift” which such a person could have tasted? This could refer to the Eucharist for certainly the bread and wine which is the Body and Blood of Christ are something that is tasted. Only those who were baptized members of the church could partake of the Eucharist. It could also refer to the experience of the gifting of the Holy Spirit. In either case, the words are used to describe or a “saved” person.

And the words “who have shared in the Holy Spirit” can only describe someone who has been born again of the Spirit. No one “shares” in the Holy Spirit who is not regenerated.

 

[Jim Parker]

Part 2
Peter also tells us that a “saved” person may turn from that salvation and return to his former life of sin and spiritual death.

2 PE 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our lord and savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Verse 20 describes the person as “saved” because the person had “escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our lord and savior Jesus Christ.” The only way you can escape the corruption of this world (which is the Adamic curse of death and corruption ) is to be born again; ie: to be saved.

The only way to be entangled again in it is to loose the salvation you had. Jesus also taught his disciples, on the night of He was betrayed as follows:

JN 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

In verse 2 Jesus referred to branches “in me.” The words “in Christ” are consistently used in the NT to describe someone who is saved. Here Jesus makes it clear that if you are saved then you are to produce .fruit. Failure to produce fruit will result in your being cut off from Jesus, the “vine.” The one who cuts off the unfruitful branch is God the Father. So, while it is true tht no outside agency is powerful enough to wrest anyone from God’s hand; God can cut you off from His Son and cast you away if you do not bear fruit.

These three passages, in Hebrews, 2 Peter and John, are also to be seen a direct rebuttal to the notion that if the person didn’t remain a Christian then he wasn’t “really” saved to begin with. All three of these passages speak clearly of a person who, by any manner of speaking, is in fact, saved but leaves the faith.

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Here Jesus tells the apostles to remain in him because if they do then He will remain in them and they will bear much fruit. No one can bear fruit who does not remain in Jesus.

This language indicates that remaining in Jesus required an act of will. The word “remain” (meinate) means, “not to depart, to continue to be present, to maintain unbroken fellowship with.” (Thayer’s) He did not say, “you will remain in me” but, rather He instructed them; “remain in me.”

5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

And thus Jesus describes the fate of those who do not remain in Him. They are cast into the fire.

The very basic logic here is that in order to “remain in” Jesus one first has to first “be in” Jesus. You have to be saved. And then, once saved, you have the choice of remaining or not.

Notice the word “if” found in a positive sense in verse 5 and a negative sense in verse 6. The word makes no sense if it does not imply free will on the part of the “branch.”

Further comment on salvation is found in the word, “if” in both the Old and New Covenants. Under the Old Covenant Israel was promised specific blessings if they remained faithful to the covenant with God. They were also promised specific curses if they did not remain faithful to the covenant.

When God spoke through the prophets concerning the apostasy of Israel, the message was consistently one of promised blessing for returning to God and of disaster for refusing to return to God. In the same manner in which Jesus told His apostles that they had to remain in Him in order to bear fruit, so God told Israel that they had to remain faithful to Him in order to receive His blessings. There would be absolutely no necessity for God telling Israel to return to Him is it were impossible for them to depart from Him. And remember that God does not change.

So under the New Covenant in Jesus’ Blood, we still have the choice to remain faithful or to turn away from our Lord and be our own lord. (If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. Ifanyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.)

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Certainly God is not going to force you to abandon faith. The only way it can be conditional, as the word “if” indicates, is that a believer, by an act of his free will, chooses not to remain in the faith and to abandon his relationship with Christ. The word “if” means that salvation is conditional based upon the believer’s decision to remain in the faith. The writer of Hebrews says it again as follows.

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

The words “See to it” are an instruction which again demonstrates that the hearer (or reader) is assumed to have the free will to make a choice to “see to it” that he does not have an unbelieving heart or not to do so. Verse 14 is crystal clear; “We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.” If we do not hold firmly then we will not share in Christ. The teaching of scripture is unequivocal and unambiguous. No one can snatch us from God’s hand but we can climb out if we wish and He will throw us out if we do not “produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” (MT 3:8, LK 3:8)

“Once saved, always saved” is not a teaching from God’s word. It’s a false teaching that suggests to people that they need not exert any effort in the pursuit of holiness since they can do nothing to gain anything more and neither can they do anything to lose the salvation they have been given. It is a license to remain immature and unfruitful. It is an invitation to remain tepid so that Christ will vomit you out of His mouth. (REV 3:16)

Now you can go and "not see" anything that those scriptures say.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not surprised that you cannot recall what you don't want to know or that you can't imagine what you don't want see in the scriptures but is seriously doubt that you would "love to see" what I have already posted many times and which you have refused to acknowledge.

He's arrogantly trying to provoke us to anger when he says we haven't posted anything that says what we claim.

"26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." (Galatians 5:26 NASB)

If he's saved, he will pay the penalty for being unloving toward the body of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm not surprised that you cannot recall what you don't want to know or that you can't imagine what you don't want see in the scriptures but I seriously doubt that you would "love to see" what I have already posted many times and which you have, to this point, refused to see.

This just drips of unbibical judgment and bias.

But, just for grins and giggles: Part 1

JN 10:22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

From this passage and others some have concluded that it is impossible to lose one’s salvation. Is that an accurate understanding of what is taught by scripture?

Sure it. The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to be given eternal life by Jesus. And we know to whom He gives this free gift: to those who believe in Him. And He gives this gift WHEN they believe.

So, from the exact point or moment when someone believes, they are given eternal life because Jesus said they HAVE eternal life from john 5:24, and from 10:28 they WILL NEVER PERISH.

What Jesus specifically said was that no one would be able to take one of his sheep out of either His hand or the Father’s hand. That means that no outside agency could overpower the might of God with which He holds His sheep secure.

To say "no one" is equivalent to saying "no person". So even the believer him/herself cannot remove themselves from His grasp.

The point is that eternal security comes from v.28 in the promise that those he gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

That is not to say, however, that one of the sheep, by an act of his own free will, could end his relationship with God and return to his previous manner of living outside the will and fellowship of God.

Wrong. It IS to say that. As I just explained above.

EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Why should anyone assume that "living and dying" here refers to eternity? What exegetical evidence is there for such an idea?

MT 25: 46 "And these (the wicked or “unsaved”) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (“saved”) into eternal life."

The prophet Ezekiel very clearly says that if a righteous (saved) person goes back to practicing detestable things then his “salvation” (righteousness) will not be remembered and he will die. (Certainly we may understand a death of the soul by this statement as it doesn’t take a Holy Spirit inspired prophet to know that anyone would die physically.)

Nice try. But no dice.

It isn't about natural death. It's about God's discipline up to and including physical death. And we know that God's discipline is PAINFUL, per Heb 12:11.

The same situation of a person who was saved but returns to his former manner of life is spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, (photisthentas) who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

In verse 4, the writer of Hebrews describes a “saved” person by describing him as having “once been enlightened.” That is a term used by the early church to describe a person who had been baptized into the church. Thayer’s explains “photisthentas” as “to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge.”

What is the “heavenly gift” which such a person could have tasted? This could refer to the Eucharist for certainly the bread and wine which is the Body and Blood of Christ are something that is tasted. Only those who were baptized members of the church could partake of the Eucharist. It could also refer to the experience of the gifting of the Holy Spirit. In either case, the words are used to describe or a “saved” person.

And the words “who have shared in the Holy Spirit” can only describe someone who has been born again of the Spirit. No one “shares” in the Holy Spirit who is not regenerated.

There is nothing in this passage to assume loss of salvation. It's about such a person (believer) repenting of their sin. By rejecting the cross work of Christ, and returning to animal sacrifice instead, they have blasphemed Christ's work on their behalf. But by returning to animal sacrifice, how can they repent if they think animal sacrifices will benefit them? They can't.

 

[FreeGrace]

Part 2
Peter also tells us that a “saved” person may turn from that salvation and return to his former life of sin and spiritual death.

This is ONLY an ASSUMPTION that a saved person "may turn from that salvation". Scripture never uses such wording.

The truth is that a saved person may return to his former life. But there is NOTHING about any believer returning to spiritual death.

Your assumptions are false. Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28). This gift is given WHEN one believes, per John 5:24. So, from the point or moment that one believes and is given the gift of eternal life, they have been promised that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Non osas conditions never perishing on a whole lot of things, none of which is found in Scripture.

Furthermore, all who believe ARE new creatures (2 Cor 5:17), born AGAIN spiritually (Titus 3:5), and of IMPERISHABLE SEED (1 Pet 1:23).

Please explain how one born of IMPERISHABLE SEED can ever perish. And address the promise of Jesus about those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

What is the outcome for fulfilling the condition in v.23?

Certainly God is not going to force you to abandon faith. The only way it can be conditional, as the word “if” indicates, is that a believer, by an act of his free will, chooses not to remain in the faith and to abandon his relationship with Christ. The word “if” means that salvation is conditional based upon the believer’s decision to remain in the faith. The writer of Hebrews says it again as follows.

There is nothing in that verse about removal from salvation.

The phrase "to continue in the faith" means just that; keep living in the sphere of that faith. Don't abandon the principles of the faith.

It has nothing to do with removing oneself from salvation.

If it did, it would CONTRADICT the very words of Jesus in John 10:28 about NEVER PERISHING.

Now you can go and "not see" anything that those scriptures say.

I see what they are saying. I see nothing about loss of salvation, but I understand that is your view or opinion. But I've explained WHY they don't speak of loss of salvation and have provided verses that PROVE why they cannot mean what is thought they mean.

 

[FreeGrace]

He's arrogantly trying to provoke us to anger when he says we haven't posted anything that says what we claim.

It is very sad that any believer would be provoked to anger when presented with the truth of what Jesus said.

 

[JLB]

What is the outcome for fulfilling the condition in v.23?

The result or outcome of continuing in the faith is the continuing of reconciliation with Christ.


21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

The result of continuing in the faith and not being moved away from the hope of the Gospel, is remaining reconciled or joined or connected to Christ Jesus our Lord.

• That is what reconcile means; To restore a separation or disconnection of union.

If a woman leaves her husband and commits adultery, then there must be reconciliation, or else there will be divorce.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is very sad that any believer would be provoked to anger when presented with the truth of what Jesus said.

No, it's how you are responding that is the occasion for provocation that you are guilty of. Don't evade the point.

 

[Jim Parker]

I see nothing about loss of salvation

What a surprise!!!
Just like you couldn't see what was clearly written every other time it was presented to you.