Obadiah
Member
It was already mentioned at least twice. It is "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..." (Heb 9:27 NIV.)
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Bible Study one soul life time or many?
- Thread starter thesaintman
- Start date
thesaintman
Member
who wrote hebrews scripture?
thesaintman
Member
who wrote hebrews scripture?
thesaintman
Member
who wrote hebrews scripture?
Obadiah
Member
What difference does it make? It's the inspired word of God, so I consider it written by God and I believe what God tells me.
Deborah13
Member
This Holy Spirit inspired writing was written by someone who was a Jew and a believer (a Christian). I believe it was Paul but it may not have been.
R
Runner
Guest
Keep pushing the envelope and asking questions, saintman - I for one think it's healthy! Hebrews 9:27-28 is, of course, the principal anti-reincarnation verse. There are, however, numerous verses that are either consistent with reincarnation or strongly suggestive of reincarnation. I'm not endorsing this pro-reincarnation site, because it was simply the first thing that turned up on Google, but it does list and discuss most of the arguably pro-reincarnation verses: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-bible-verses.htm.
As with a number of doctrines, it seems to me quite a leap to dismiss reincarnation solely on the basis of Hebrews 9:27-28. This is, it seems to me, getting an awful lot of mileage out of one verse, particularly when there are verses pointing in the other direction. Part of the explanation, of course, is that reincarnation in one form or another is a prominent feature of many other religions as well as the New Age movement, which automatically makes it highly suspect for Christians. And, of course, the position being set forth by the other posters here is indeed the mainstream, orthodox position, accepted by the vast majority of Christians.
Then we have the actual evidence. I'm not talking about Earthquake Kelley, but about someone like Ian Stevenson, who (quoting Wikipedia) "worked for the University of Virginia School of Medicine for fifty years, as Chair of the Department of Psychiatry from 1957 to 1967, Carlson Professor of Psychiatry from 1967 to 2001, and Research Professor of Psychiatry from 2002 until his death." In short, Stevenson was no nut case. He devoted his entire life to serious research in reincarnation. Over the past 40 years, I happen to have read pretty much everything he ever wrote - tens of thousands of pages. If you are seriously interested in reincarnation, I would start with Stevenson and branch off from there.
Does the evidence amassed by Stevenson and other researchers like him "prove" reincarnation? No - even he didn't think so. Can it reasonably all be attributed to "demonic deception"? You can prayerfully decide for yourself. Is reincarnation irreconcilably inconsistent with the other core doctrines of Christianity? It doesn't seem to me that it is - in fact, it would eliminate many of the concerns that greatly trouble non-Christians about the seeming "unfairness" of God and life. One of the things that makes me a bit suspicious of reincarnation is that it's "too good to be true." As you may know, C. S. Lewis and others have pointed out that one of the convincing things about Christianity is that it is counterintuitive - not the sort of thing humans would probably invent.
Do I "believe" in reincarnation? No, I am merely "open" to the possibility in light of the Bible verses summarized in the link above and the actual evidence for it. The key point is that, regardless of whether you regard reincarnation as a serious possibility, you have to live your life here and now as though it is the only one you are going to have and the judgment will follow. It would be an incredibly dangerous mistake to take the attitude, "I'll worry about Jesus in my next lifetime." There simply isn't enough Biblical support or evidence to make that bet. Even if reincarnation is true, perhaps this lifetime is the one in which you get an opportunity to come to Christ.
I will also warn you against becoming too fascinated with topics like reincarnation. I have been there, done that. I have seriously studied the paranormal my entire life and have had numerous paranormal experiences of various sorts. All of my experiences were benign or helpful because I didn't seek them out; they came to me unsolicited (including one that was explicitly Christian). Some of my studies and experiences have contributed to my Christian faith - but unless you are extremely well-grounded in your faith, these areas are extremely dangerous. They are rife with charlatans and tricksters (human and non-human), are as addictive and seductive as narcotics, and very likely to lead you far away from the path you want to be on. So while I applaud your inquisitiveness - I was and am the same way, and make no apology for it - I will say, "Be very careful, very prayerful, and don't stray too far from the orthodox path."
Deborah13
Member
If I believed in reincarnation then I could not believe this verse or many others.
1Co 6:11 And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.
Dear thesaintman, if someone told you that they went to heaven and saw four beasts, would you believe them?
What of souls under an altar talking though they were killed?
Great multitudes that could not be numbered by man?
Some sealed to God in their foreheads?
Angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, and science can’t even give reliable weather reports. Are these aliens?
There is an abundance of scripture given that is beyond natural understanding to confuse those that don’t, and won’t believe. It will one day be used in judgment as a testimony against them.
There is instruction that says except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, meaning the natural man cannot understand spiritual things for the lack of a better explanation on my part.
You said : “the problem is ?
i always find holes in everybodys stories ...............
what do i do then?”
I’m sorry to say that your testimony has become no better than an atheist troll ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. In your attempt to disprove anything presented to you, you throw nonsense against the wall to see what will stick.
Dear thesaintman, until you are assured of your place in Christ there is little any on these forums can say that will be little more than a waste of their breath.
May God answer your questions to His glory, and that you may be blessed in Jesus' name.
R
Runner
Guest
Really? I could. As I have pointed out on other threads, problems are often definitional. In discussions about reincarnation, people often have a particular one-dimensional definition of "reincarnation." If something that we might term "reincarnation" is in fact part of God's plan, it could fit any of a variety of models - and, undoubtedly, some beyond our ability to imagine. I have absolutely no problem, Biblically or otherwise, with the notion that God and His creation may be far more mysterious than what we learn in Vacation Bible School. I'm often struck by the fact that the God of many Christians seems ... well, kind of small and uninteresting in comparison to, say, the God who spoke to Job.
But throwing things against the wall to see what will stick is how some of the greatest advancements have been made. I happen to have watched yesterday a documentary on fractals. Benoit Mandelbrot was derided like an "atheist troll" by the scientific community when he introduced the "nonsensical" concept of fractals, but he persevered - and fractal geometry has ushered in a revolution. Not all spiritual seekers are satisfied with pat answers. Some want to be satisfied that they really believe what they say they believe. I don't believe one's brain must be put in neutral after accepting Christ. Perhaps thesaintman is just playing games - but I'm willing to take the chance that he isn't and even to waste my breath if he is.
Oh I agree with you totally, and I pray for thesaintman. I was simply attempting to plant a seed for him to examine his motives; not to condemn him. Thank you for bringing your opinions.
Deborah13
Member
Well, if you find Job interesting you are welcome to join eddif's thread in Bible Study. We are studying Job. I don't remember you posting there?
R
Runner
Guest
Oh I agree with you totally, and I pray for thesaintman. I was simply attempting to plant a seed for him to examine his motives; not to condemn him. Thank you for bringing your opinions.
And I absolutely agree with you. If thesaintman is merely posing as a Christian and merely trying to stir the pot, he needs to take a long hard look in the mirror (although I was capable of doing the same thing when I was 24!). I am certainly not lobbying for reincarnation, but I have always been fascinated by the evidence and have always been willing to confront evidence that challenges my beliefs. My credo has always been, "I'm after the Truth, or as close to it as I can get in this lifetime." Hence, I am sympathetic to those such as thesaintman who enjoy poking and prodding. Although I was born again at 20 and believe that my salvation occurred at that moment, I don't think I was really "a Christian" in any meaningful sense until I was about 50 - after a great deal of poking and prodding.
back at you!
R
Runner
Guest
No, I noticed it, but it was too far along for me to dive in. Job used to be my least-favorite book in the Bible and for about ten years has been my favorite. I don't know what the bottom line of Job is for eddif (I have read many books and commentaries on Job), but for me the bottom line is "God thoughts are not our thoughts, God's ways are not our ways, God's perspective is not our perspective, and we need to accept the mystery. No matter what life may bring, we must trust in the ultimate wisdom, mercy and love of God."
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Malachi
Member
You've asked this question three times when it is totally irrelevant. The epistle to the Hebrews was written by the apostle Paul (though some disagree). It matters not. God is the Author while the human writer is simply His scribe.
The important thing to understand is that as opposed to all Eastern religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe that there is only one life on earth and after that the Judgment. For those who are in Christ, there is no judgment of sin, but only of their works. That is because Christ was made Sin for us and took our judgment upon Himself. For those who are outside of Christ, there is an eternal judgment. No reincarnation, no second chance, no annihilation.
Deborah13
Member
These are all good thoughts, imo.
R
Runner
Guest
Since I am now flogging a dead horse, I will make this my final post on this thread (please, hold your applause). The consensus of New Testament scholars is that Paul did not write Hebrews. From the early days of the Christian era, there was doubt about Pauline authorship and whether Hebrews belonged in the canon at all. I happen to enjoy Hebrews, but it is a dense, difficult letter. A more pertinent question would be whether Hebrews 9:27-28 was intended to have any relevance to reincarnation or can reasonably be applied to the reincarnation scenario. It obviously can be applied to the reincarnation scenario since it typically is, but this is clearly not the context of the verse and it is arguably one of those verses that have been lifted out of context to support a particular doctrine. Just as an example, I find Hebrews 9:27-28 considerably less clear and compelling than the "predestination" verses that those who do not believe in predestination are forced to explain away (no, I don't wish to debate predestination).
In fact, there is a long history of debate about reincarnation within Judaism and Islam. To quote a 2003 paper on reincarnation in Islam, "Thus the debate goes on. One thing, however, is certain: most of the greatest saints Islam has produced believed in reincarnation and it does constitute a part of many Muslims' belief system. This is primarily caused by a reluctance on the part of many Muslims to believe that God will merely reward or punish human beings on the basis of a lifetime in which they may not have received the guidance necessary to improve their conduct. That God will just be reconciled to their being sent to an eternal life in heaven or hell without their being given another chance to improve themselves becomes a proposition difficult to believe." http://www.adishakti.org/_/reincarnation_in_islam.htm#sthash.emUvfBC0.dpuf.
In addition, some of the most compelling modern-era reincarnation research has been conducted by Jews and has focused on Jewish victims of the Holocaust.
My point is simply that the issue is not cut and dried. "No reincarnation" is unquestionably the mainstream Christian position, but I question whether it is compelled by Hebrews 9:27-28, it does raise some difficult questions, and it is countered by a sizable body of evidence that must be accounted for somehow. Moreover, there are many possible reincarnation models that the typical argument against reincarnation does not take into account. I have said that, even if reincarnation of some sort happens to be true, betting your soul that you are going to get another opportunity to turn to God after this lifetime would be an insane gamble. But if someone like thesaintman sincerely wants to deal with the reincarnation issue, I believe it is incumbent on me to provide a thoughtful response and not just point him to one debatable verse in the Bible and suggest his questions are impertinent and not worth asking.
Where is thesaintman, anyway? If I have been flogging this horse on his behalf after he has already moved on, it will be the last such flogging I do for quite a while.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation./(KJV)
There you are, there's your scripture.
Malachi
Member
First of all "it is not just one debatable verse" but it sums up the entire teaching of Scripture. One could provide many words of the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles to back up that "debatable verse".
Secondly, Rumi and Sufiism are not representative of mainline Muslim beliefs. You have not quoted from the Koran which says (Sura IV:11):
"Those who devour the property of orphans unjustly devour Fire in their bellies, and shall assuredly roast in a Blaze". This is for the evildoers.
Then we have this for those who avoid heinous sins (Sura IV:35): "If you avoid the heinous sins that are forbidden you, We will acquit you of your evil deeds, and admit you by the gate of honour". While this is not Gospel truth, it is Koranic teaching.
K
Kenny_ms
Guest
Really? I could. As I have pointed out on other threads, problems are often definitional.
And they are probably more often defined by most using the conventional definition as we assume is going on here.
And that is a fair assumption but so there is no doubt, lets ask Saintman, if we can get them to answer, What is your definition of reincarnation? That should clear that up.
Now if SM chooses not to answer, just as they have on a few issues like reading the Bible and do they believe the bible is the true word of God, then we will get nowhere with this. SM said the Bible has holes in it (or was that someones thoughts had holes in it?) but at the same time there seems to be holes with SM's process as well, important things left out, or not considered.....Hence more direct questions:
SM, do you believe the Bible is, in it's entirety, the true word of God? And do you believe the Bible personally? If, once again, you choose not to answer, can you please tell us why? Am I being too pushy at this point?
I have absolutely no problem, Biblically or otherwise, with the notion that God and His creation may be far more mysterious than what we learn in Vacation Bible School. I'm often struck by the fact that the God of many Christians seems ... well, kind of small and uninteresting in comparison to, say, the God who spoke to Job.
Problem is, with most here, it goes directly to what the Bible teaches and has nothing to do with just using minimal knowledge as you suggest of "Vacation Bible School." Some might even take offense at the suggestion we are so dim that we only base our conclusions on what we might have learned in Kindergarten? But since I doubt you meant offense...I won't anyway.
And they are probably more often defined by most using the conventional definition as we assume is going on here.
And that is a fair assumption but so there is no doubt, lets ask Saintman, if we can get them to answer, What is your definition of reincarnation? That should clear that up.
Now if SM chooses not to answer, just as they have on a few issues like reading the Bible and do they believe the bible is the true word of God, then we will get nowhere with this. SM said the Bible has holes in it (or was that someones thoughts had holes in it?) but at the same time there seems to be holes with SM's process as well, important things left out, or not considered.....Hence more direct questions:
SM, do you believe the Bible is, in it's entirety, the true word of God? And do you believe the Bible personally? If, once again, you choose not to answer, can you please tell us why? Am I being too pushy at this point?
I have absolutely no problem, Biblically or otherwise, with the notion that God and His creation may be far more mysterious than what we learn in Vacation Bible School. I'm often struck by the fact that the God of many Christians seems ... well, kind of small and uninteresting in comparison to, say, the God who spoke to Job.
Problem is, with most here, it goes directly to what the Bible teaches and has nothing to do with just using minimal knowledge as you suggest of "Vacation Bible School." Some might even take offense at the suggestion we are so dim that we only base our conclusions on what we might have learned in Kindergarten? But since I doubt you meant offense...I won't anyway.