One World Government

[Drew]

The one world kingdom or government systems of old was about that very same idea, false worship. Daniel and his fellows were well taken care of in the Babylon captivity, Nebuchadnezzar even exalting Daniel to be third ruler in the kingdom. It was when the jealous false prophets of Babyon stirred Nebuchadnezzar to make a decree in setting up a false idol image of himself for all to bow to at the sound of the psalter when the actual trial came. What will you do, bow in worship to an idol, or wait for Christ Jesus? Each believer needs to ask theirself that question today.

The irony is that the very book of Daniel endorses the notion of a "one world" kingdom with Jesus as King:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Clearly, this text places the Son of Man figure as ruler over all nations – effectively a “one world governmentâ€, if you will. Now note how Jesus invokes this very text at His trial before Caiaphus:

But He kept silent and did not answer Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

What is Jesus doing? He is telling Caiaphus that He (Jesus) is this son of man figure from Daniel 7. What does this mean? If you read Daniel 7, you will see that the Son of Man figure is enthroned after victory over the great beast. When does Jesus achieve victory over the great beast of sin and death that lies behind all terrible human kingdoms?

At the cross. Jesus is referring to His imminent victory of the cross and His subsequent upward vindication in resurrection and subsequent enthronement over all nations, following the exact pattern of the Daniel 7 text. And Caiaphus will indeed see this, just as Jesus predicts.
Jesus has been enthroned (2000 years ago) as king over all the nations.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes I do believe the kingdom refers to both the "house of Israel" and the Throne of David, on earth. Did you forget that last part about David's Throne, being on earth?

If you only study The New Testament Books about that kingdom and throne, you won't have the whole picture; for there is MUCH prophecy in the Old Testament prophets about it that has yet to come pass today. The two sticks prophecy in Ezekiel 37 is one example of that.

The Lord God was king over the nation of Israel until He was rejected. His throne was not on the earth.

“And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.â€

The Jews understood when the Messiah came, He would sit on the throne.
All the OT prophecies point to the Christ.

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.â€

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

 

[veteran]

One can TRY and spiritualize God's Word away into men's doctrines to where it won't fit the Old Testament prophets. What makes the Biblical illiterate think they can do that, when our Lord Jesus nor any of His Apostles did that?

Ezek 37:19-28
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

God is declaring how the two houses of Israel have been apart, and a time will come when He join them back together and become one in His hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Not only has God promised to join all the children of Israel back to the land of promise in the holy land, but they are also to have "one king" over them. If that means the state of Israel today, which are comprised of Jews of only the "house of Judah", then where is their king today? This is especially where the spiritual kingdom only theologists fail miserably, because for this to happen like God says it will here in Ezekiel 37, it has to mean all those children of Israel becoming believers on His Son Jesus Christ. Who can show me that has happened today over in the state of Israel?

One should also notice the deceivers who try to turn God's Own Words around on Him here, when they infer in error to the "land of Israel" here He mentions as being something else other than the literal lands on earth in the holy land. The main facts God gives here 1) all the children of Israel back in the literal lands He promised their fathers from where they have been scattered among the "heathen" (put for Gentiles, and not in negative sense); and 2) one King over them all there.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.
24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

Notice David as king is distinguished there from the "one shepherd" (Christ Jesus).

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

That reference to the literal lands in the middleast which God first promised to their fathers is unmistakeable. This has never happenned to this day, for the last king of Judah to sit upon a throne in Jerusalem in the holy land was Zedekiah during Jeremiah's days. Zedekiah's son heirs were all killed by the king of Babylon, and Zedekiah himself was taken to Babylon captive in chains with his eyes poked out, where also he died. Since that time, there has never been a king of Judah sit upon David's throne in Jerusalem. The later Herods under Roman authority were of Idumean origins (of Esau) per the histories of the Jewish historian Josephus.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

That "everlasting covenant" certainly cannot be the Old Covenant, for Christ ended it when He died on the cross. That can only point to the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. HAS THAT BEEN ESTABLISHED AMONG THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL IN THE HOLY LAND TODAY? Hardly, though there are some Christian believers there in Jerusalem, but it certainly does not fulfill this prophecy.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)

Not only does God say there that His sanctuary will be among them from that point forward forever, but also that the "heathen" (Gentiles) will know it! How strange it is that even many Israelites today don't even know it, showing what time this prophecy is set for? It's still future to us today even.

So the Biblically illiterate can believe whatever they want and it won't matter, those events are going to happen just like God says there as written.
.

 

[veteran]

What timing is the following for?

Matt 19:27-29
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
(KJV)

All that's not just some spiritual religious mumbo jumbo. It is literal. The twelve Apostles are each to sit upon a throne judging over one of the 12 tribes of Israel in CHRIST'S KINGDOM. Our Lord Jesus is hard-linking that time of their sitting on thrones with the time of "the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory."

What about Christ's promise there of His saints inheriting "everlasting life"? Is that just spiritualized mumbo jumbo too? The evil "workers on iniquity" want us to think it is, for they believe there's this flesh order today and nothing else. That is WHY they're trying to say these events of Christ's Kingdom is already manifested today, because they deny the spiritual body of incorruption state of the future which Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)

 

[Drew]

One should also notice the deceivers who try to turn God's Own Words around on Him here, when they infer in error to the "land of Israel" here He mentions as being something else other than the literal lands on earth in the holy land. The main facts God gives here 1) all the children of Israel back in the literal lands He promised their fathers from where they have been scattered among the "heathen" (put for Gentiles, and not in negative sense); and 2) one King over them all there.

When someone wants to promote a certain non-Biblical position, they will suggest those who disagree with them are deceived, or are twisting the Scriptures, or whatever.

When the entire corpus of Scripture is in view, it becomes clear that God never made the promises you suggest about the Jews and the nation of Israel.

Despite the Genesis 17 promise of Palestine to Israel forever, things are not what they seem. The heir of that promise is not the nation of Israel, but rather the church.

Consider this from Romans 4:

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."

The “as it is written†device of verse 17 clearly shows that this verse is amplifying on the same promise of verse 16, which Paul has just described as being for Jews and Gentiles. Those “of the law (the Torah)†are clearly Jews and Paul clearly expands the set of heirs beyond Jews only. The promise in verse 17 is an Abrahamic covenant promise copied straight out of Genesis 17.

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Now it is clear from Romans 4 that Abraham is given the Genesis 17:5 promise specifically in his capacity as a father, not of a Jew only family, but of a Jew+Gentile family.

In verse 7, Paul refers to the descendents of Abraham. We know from Paul's analysis of verse 5, these must be his Jew + Gentile descendents. In verse 5, Abraham is set in the role of a father to a Jew + Gentile family, so the descendents in verses 7 and 8 must be descendents in that same family.

No competent writer would describe Abraham in verse 5 as being father of a family A (Jews and Gentiles) and then describe a promise made to a different family B (the nation of Israel) in verses 7 and 8 without giving us any intervening hint at all that promises to a different family are about to be described. If anything, the trans-national allusions of Genesis 17:6 only re-enforce the position that a Jew + Gentile family remains solidly in view.

This is all about reading the entire narrative of Scripture. True, the Genesis 17 promise seems to be made to the Jews. But if we take Paul seriously in Romans 4, we are driven to the conclusion that Paul understands the real heirs of the promise of “Palestine forever†are actually the Jew + Gentile family of faith – the church.

To recap the argument in case the connections are missed:

1. Paul asserts that a certain promise is made to Abraham in his capacity of a father to a Jew + Gentile family (Romans 4:16);

2. It is clear that Romans 4:17 is elaborating on that same promise (“As it is writtenâ€)

3. Romans 4:17 is quoting Genesis 17:5. Therefore, by virtue of (1), we know that Paul sees Genesis 17:5 as describing Abraham as the father of a Jew + Gentile family.

4. If Paul sees Abraham in Genesis 17:5 as the father of a Jew + Gentile family, he must see the promise of Genesis 17:7-8 as being made to Abraham in his capacity of father to that same family. Genesis 17:6 is the only intervening material and this material does not justify a shift to a consideration of Abraham’s Jewish family, it actually strengthens the position that a Jew + Gentile family is still in view.

Now what it means to promise Palestine to the church is a matter I will not get into in the present post. Here again, I will claim that the promise does not mean what it seems to mean, at least in respect to what Paul means by “Paestineâ€.

 

[glorydaz]

To recap the argument in case the connections are missed:

1. Paul asserts that a certain promise is made to Abraham in his capacity of a father to a Jew + Gentile family (Romans 4:16);

2. It is clear that Romans 4:17 is elaborating on that same promise (“As it is writtenâ€)

3. Romans 4:17 is quoting Genesis 17:5. Therefore, by virtue of (1), we know that Paul sees Genesis 17:5 as describing Abraham as the father of a Jew + Gentile family.

4. If Paul sees Abraham in Genesis 17:5 as the father of a Jew + Gentile family, he must see the promise of Genesis 17:7-8 as being made to Abraham in his capacity of father to that same family. Genesis 17:6 is the only intervening material and this material does not justify a shift to a consideration of Abraham’s Jewish family, it actually strengthens the position that a Jew + Gentile family is still in view.

Now what it means to promise Palestine to the church is a matter I will not get into in the present post. Here again, I will claim that the promise does not mean what it seems to mean, at least in respect to what Paul means by “Palestineâ€.

Amen....this is explained further in Eph.

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And, of course, the Jews realized their King had arrived.

Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

 

[veteran]

When someone wants to promote a certain non-Biblical position, they will suggest those who disagree with them are deceived, or are twisting the Scriptures, or whatever.

Who declares what is Biblical and what is "non-Biblical position"? You? When you show doubts about the covenant of promise Abraham received specifically about the lands God showed him, how does that NOT relate to the fact there is no Christian state of belieivng Israelites + Gentiles established there today? If you look, the majority in the state of Israel today are non-believers, and even they don't possess all the original lands of promise to Israel!

When the entire corpus of Scripture is in view, it becomes clear that God never made the promises you suggest about the Jews and the nation of Israel.

And which ones do you speak of, that God is going to establish His Israel of both the house of Judah and house of Israel back to those lands He showed Abraham? How is that NOT the subject of the two sticks prophecy in Ezekiel 37, if that's what you refer to?

Paul summed it up in Gal.3 when he said all those of Faith are the children of Abraham. That in no way implies that God's Israel is no more. Our Heavenly Father declared the seed of Israel will exist forever...

Jer 31:36-37
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

Along with the concept of all those of Faith becoming the children of Abraham, Paul also used the term "commonwealth of Israel" to describe what structure the believing Gentiles had come under...

Eph 2:8-13
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)

Paul's Message is clearly that those who were once strangers from "the commonwealth of Israel" and the "covenants of promise" are now "made nigh by the blood of Christ".

Maybe I need to remind you Paul is speaking to the Church at Ephesus there, which was made up of both believing Israelites and Gentiles. Even a blood-born Israelite can become a stranger away from the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel by falling away and being cut off by God. But the Book of Acts clearly shows believing flesh-born Israelites who believed on Christ among Gentiles in those Churches.

In other words, a flesh born Israelite who believes by Faith like Abraham is NOT converted into a Gentile system of faith. It's the believing Gentile that is coverted to the Faith of Abraham, which has ALWAYS been a God given possession to His Israel. Like Paul also showed in Romans, just because there existed Israelites that refused Christ, that doesn't mean God's promise was made of no effect. And then Paul declares about a flesh Israelite remnant according to the election of grace in Romans 11, showing that God has reserved an elect remnant of the seed of Israel per His promise... to whom? TO ABRAHAM!

So you, nor anyone else, can try and replace God's concept of His Israel, for His Israel and His Church are the very same thing!

You see, I'm not confused by the rhetoric some have in trying to show that God's Israel is different than His Church. Those who began that false separation doctrine started with the Dispensationalists who try to create one Church for Israelites, and another different Church for Gentiles. Not only do they do that, but they also try to create two different Gospels, one for each! Those doctrines are falsehoods, and not written in God's Word, and especially not by Apostle Paul. Paul preached Christ's Gospel, the same Gospel, to both Israelites and Gentiles.

And when the New Testament is talking about the Church, with the Greek word 'ekklesia', it's about the called out ones, the congregation of believers on Christ Jesus. Paul used another lable for Christ's Church in Ephesians 2, and it is "the commonwealth of Israel".
.

 

[veteran]

The one world kingdom or government systems of old was about that very same idea, false worship. Daniel and his fellows were well taken care of in the Babylon captivity, Nebuchadnezzar even exalting Daniel to be third ruler in the kingdom. It was when the jealous false prophets of Babyon stirred Nebuchadnezzar to make a decree in setting up a false idol image of himself for all to bow to at the sound of the psalter when the actual trial came. What will you do, bow in worship to an idol, or wait for Christ Jesus? Each believer needs to ask theirself that question today.

The irony is that the very book of Daniel endorses the notion of a "one world" kingdom with Jesus as King:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Clearly, this text places the Son of Man figure as ruler over all nations – effectively a “one world governmentâ€, if you will. Now note how Jesus invokes this very text at His trial before Caiaphus:

So why did you conviently omit all the Scripture evidence in Daniel that decalres Christ coming to knock the beast image down, and setting up an everlasting Kingdom conditional to the 70 weeks prophecy, i.e., the tribulation timing?

This is why I really don't like Forums, because it's so easy to paste a little bit of Scripture here, and a little bit of Scripture there, in trying to make it say whatever one wants. And that's what you're doing here Drew. Because I'm pretty darn certain you're well aware of other conditions per the Book of Daniel that must be met before that everlasting kingdom is setup....

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

The "stone" that was cut out without hands refers to our Lord Jesus, The Cornerstone Which the builders rejected. When Christ comes to establish His Kingdom upon this earth, He will smite that false kingdom there which is to have ten horns, and which will include the previous beast kingdoms under it (as the image pieces show), and the whole thing will come tumbling down. ONLY then will Christ setup His everlasting Kingdom on earth. But right now, like our Lord said, "...but now is my kingdom from hence." (John 18:36).

So what does that statue image in Daniel represent? A false world kingdom over all the earth. MUST it be setup on earth in order for Christ to come and smite it at its feet? Duh..., yeah, of course. Is this showing that false kingdom before, or after Christ's coming? Duh... again; it's BEFORE Christ's coming. And what's been the subject of this Thread? Christ's world Kingdom, or that false one world government? Duh... once more, about the false world kingdom Christ is coming to smash to pieces! The very one that is being setup on earth TODAY! The very false kingdom that is joining ALL religions together!

Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

Wow! There's that order of a false world kingdom with the ten kings setup over it existing on earth PRIOR to God setting up His everlasting Kingdom earth! Who could miss that timing? (Probably the same folks who can't keep the 7 trumpets of Revelation in order?)

Dan 7:8-11
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
(KJV)

Now think about that order there brothers and sisters, (not you Drew, for I know you won't understand that). Does that show the ten horns and the little horn that comes up among them doing their thing AFTER God cast those thrones down, and opens the books of Judgment (yes, the great white throne Judgment of Revelation 20). NO, that order is about the ten horns (ten kings) and little horn working PRIOR to God's Judgment and casting those thrones down to never exist on earth again, ever.

Dan 7:20-22
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(KJV)

Again, what's the order? Is the ten horned kingdom first, or is the time for the saints to possess the kingdom first? Which? The trials upon the saints by that false ten horned kingdom is first, then the time of its destruction, and then the time when the saints are to possess the kingdom, in that order. This is so.. simple!

Dan 7:24-27
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
(KJV)

What kind of overall picture does that paint, when more of the Scripture in Daniel is read?

It shows:

1) there will be a false world kingdom with ten kings, and another king (little horn) setup over this earth BEFORE Christ's coming, AND, it must be existing when Christ does come to tear it down, and establish His everlasting Kingdom in its stead.

2) the false kingdom will wear out the saints (mentally), change the times and laws, and prevail over the saints for a period of three and one half years (the time, times, and the dividing of time per Dan.7:25).

3) only after the defeat of that false world government kingdom by Christ at His coming will the saints possess the kingdom.
.

 

[Drew]

Who declares what is Biblical and what is "non-Biblical position"? You?

No. But it is not me who is accusing those who disagree with me as "deceivers". It is you has done that:

One should also notice the deceivers who try to turn God's Own Words around on Him here....

My point was that your position has no support and that you resort to such rhetoric to compensate. Please do not try to turn this into a claim that I am setting myself up as the arbiter of scriptural truth.

As we have seen in part in my post about Genesis 17, and as we will see in other posts I plan to make, the scriptures show that God never promised the land of Palestine to ethnic Jews forever.

 

[Drew]

And which ones do you speak of, that God is going to establish His Israel of both the house of Judah and house of Israel back to those lands He showed Abraham? How is that NOT the subject of the two sticks prophecy in Ezekiel 37, if that's what you refer to?

I am not referring to the two sticks prophecy. I have not studied that prophecy, but since it is clear, as per my argument of a recent post, that Paul does not think that ethnic Jews have been promised Israel, I can confidently say that whatever the "two sticks" stuff is about, it is not any kind of promise of the Land of Palestine to ethnic Jews beyond the time of the cross.

Paul summed it up in Gal.3 when he said all those of Faith are the children of Abraham. That in no way implies that God's Israel is no more. Our Heavenly Father declared the seed of Israel will exist forever...

Jer 31:36-37
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

Well, yes and no. I certainly agree that the "children of faith" are the "true Israel" and that this "true Israel" indeed still exists, and that there are indeed promises still out there for this true Israel. But, as I am sure you are aware, this "true Israel" is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, so we are not talking about promises still on the table for any kind of ethnic group, such as the genetic descendents of Jacob. And, for reasons I will not get into here, I think that Paul sees the “promise of Palestine to the ethnic Jews forever†as really being a promise of the entire cosmos to this “true Israel†we are talking about.

There seems to be some confusion about us regarding the use of the term “Israelâ€. Paul has 2 Israel’s in his mind – the conventional “ethnic Israel†as determined by being a descendent of the 12 son of Jacob, and this “true Israelâ€, whose membership is determined solely by faith.

 

[veteran]

Now then brethren, understanding the Book of Daniel examples in the previous post, what does that reveal about the state of things on this earth today?

It shows beyond all doubt, that a false one world BEAST kingdom must exist on earth when Christ comes to destroy it, and then setup His everlasting Kingdom for His saints. It also shows the false beast world kingdom will prevail over Christ's saints for a 3 and 1/2 year period prior to Christ's return to defeat it.

If that is already history, like the deceived say, then when did Christ return to this earth to defeat that world beast kingdom? He didn't. And the pagan Roman empire ended long after Christ's first coming.

Since the pagan Roman empire, there has never been another world beast kingdom setup over all nations. The closest event we are seeing today of a new world system being setup is organizations like the European Union. But there is an American Union being proposed today also (see articles by journalist and book author Jerome Corsi).

What has the Communist International declared they plan to do on this earth? They plan to take over all nations on the earth, and setup their system of world socialism. They've declared that strategy and goal for many decades now.

So how is that Communist plan for world domination even exists today, if we are in Christ's Kingdom already? We've already heard some here say Christ allows evil to exist in His Kingdom. Is that true per God's Word? Absolutely not, for Christ's Kingdom is about His total reign WITH His elect servants, on earth (Rev.5:10; Rev.20:9), using "a rod of iron" over all nations (Rev.2:27; Rev.19:15; Rev.11:15), even with all peoples bowing the knew to Him as LORD and KING.

All we have to do is honestly look at the signs in the world today about the movements for a one-world government over all nations on earth to know that system is not about our Lord Jesus' Kingdom.

Christ's Kingdom today is not etablished among all nations today, that should be obvious. It also should be obvious for a Bible studying Christian that the world system coming about today has nothing to do with our Lord Jesus, for it is strongly against Christ. When I was in grade school, every morning began with a prayer to our Lord. And we said the pledge of allegance with God's Name in it. The first college systems in the U.S. were run and operated by Christ's Church. And now staff in many universities today don't want you to even mention the Name Jesus Christ among them. And if you do, you'll be belittled and treated as backward and ignorant. Is all this a sign of Christ's Kingdom having come today? No.

Some nations, like our neighbor Canada, and some of the European nations are passing laws that treats preaching what The Bible says against homosexuality as a criminal offense (hate crimes legislation). Is that a sign of Christ reigning in His Kingdom on earth today? No.

Christian converts in majority Islamic lands like Sudan and areas of Asia are being taken and greatly persecuted today just for being a Christian, their houses being burned down, themselves and their whole families being murdered, and some being beheaded. Is that a sign of Christ's Kingdom come on earth today.

And what about the rampant child kidnapping and pornography rings, and prostitution slave markerts going on in the world today? Are those signs of Christ's Kingdom having come on this earth?

What even about some Christian Churches today inviting Buddhist monks into the Church service to chant oriental mantras directly in front of the Communion Table of Christ? What about some of type Churches inviting pagan dance and eastern religious demonstrations into their Church services? Is that an example of Christ's reign today on earth, even among His own?

What of all those who attend Church while having membership in one of the many secret societies which require the member to take an oath of allegiance to the secret society firstmost? Is that an example of Christ's reign already upon this earth today?

Oh, I failed to mention the murder of innocent unborn infants, which I wonder if there's not a market for their remains for doing stem cell research?

If we are in Christ's Kingdom today on earth, then why do those things go on today, and why are they more allied with the devil's hell, instead of Christ's reign? It's because what's going on in this world on earth today is not a sign of Christ's reign and Kingdom having come. It is instead the sign of Jacob's trouble our Lord Jesus warned of us, a time of coming tribulation, a blister growing getting ready to pop.
.

 

[Drew]

Paul's Message is clearly that those who were once strangers from "the commonwealth of Israel" and the "covenants of promise" are now "made nigh by the blood of Christ".

Maybe I need to remind you Paul is speaking to the Church at Ephesus there, which was made up of both believing Israelites and Gentiles. Even a blood-born Israelite can become a stranger away from the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel by falling away and being cut off by God. But the Book of Acts clearly shows believing flesh-born Israelites who believed on Christ among Gentiles in those Churches.

In other words, a flesh born Israelite who believes by Faith like Abraham is NOT converted into a Gentile system of faith. It's the believing Gentile that is coverted to the Faith of Abraham, which has ALWAYS been a God given possession to His Israel. Like Paul also showed in Romans, just because there existed Israelites that refused Christ, that doesn't mean God's promise was made of no effect. And then Paul declares about a flesh Israelite remnant according to the election of grace in Romans 11, showing that God has reserved an elect remnant of the seed of Israel per His promise... to whom? TO ABRAHAM!

So you, nor anyone else, can try and replace God's concept of His Israel, for His Israel and His Church are the very same thing!

Well I agree with all of this and have never posted anything that suggests otherwise. This is a complicated topic and there is apparently some misunderstanding between us. For the moment, it does not matter who is responsible for this. I entirely agree that Gentiles get “incorporated†into a “true Israelâ€. And I agree with the bit about the remnant.

You see, I have understood you as asserting that the land of Palestine was promised forever to ethnic Jews, and ethnic Jews only. If you do not believe this, then we are in agreement, at least about the issue of “who†Palestine was promised to.

 

[Drew]

So why did you conviently omit all the Scripture evidence in Daniel that decalres Christ coming to knock the beast image down, and setting up an everlasting Kingdom conditional to the 70 weeks prophecy, i.e., the tribulation timing?

This begs the question. I suspect that you are mistaken about the “timing†of the 70 week prophecy. I admit that I have not studied that prophecy. I am also willing to bet the “tribulation†you refer to is something that has already taken place. But we do know one thing - through his invocation of Daniel 7 before Caiaphus, Jesus is claiming to be the Son of Man figure who gets enthroned as king over all the nations as of His resurrection. I have gone through that argument in some detail. You really need to attack my argument directly if you want to sustain your position. It is not adequate to refer to the 70 week prophecy as if your view that it is inconsistent with Jesus already being enthroned does not need to actually be defended.

I am quite confident that such an argument will not succeed because then we would have contradiction in the Scriptures. Jesus really cannot be misunderstood: He tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will live to see Jesus enthroned as king of all the world. Jesus knows Daniel 7 – He would not allude to it if He were not telling Caiaphus that He (Jesus) were not to be shortly enthroned as King of all the world. Let’s be clear – the Son of Man figure in Daniel 7 is clearly described as being enthroned over all the world.

This is why I really don't like Forums, because it's so easy to paste a little bit of Scripture here, and a little bit of Scripture there, in trying to make it say whatever one wants. And that's what you're doing here Drew.

You have given the reader no evidence at all to support this suggestion. It is easy to accuse someone else of bending the text to one’s own pre-conceptions. But you need to make an actual argument that I am doing so. Otherwise, why should the reader not think you are exhibiting the same kind of bias.
I will get to the rest of your post shortly.

 

[Drew]

Because I'm pretty darn certain you're well aware of other conditions per the Book of Daniel that must be met before that everlasting kingdom is setup....

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

The "stone" that was cut out without hands refers to our Lord Jesus, The Cornerstone Which the builders rejected. When Christ comes to establish His Kingdom upon this earth, He will smite that false kingdom there which is to have ten horns, and which will include the previous beast kingdoms under it (as the image pieces show), and the whole thing will come tumbling down. ONLY then will Christ setup His everlasting Kingdom on earth.

So what does that statue image in Daniel represent? A false world kingdom over all the earth. MUST it be setup on earth in order for Christ to come and smite it at its feet? Duh..., yeah, of course. Is this showing that false kingdom before, or after Christ's coming? Duh... again; it's BEFORE Christ's coming. And what's been the subject of this Thread? Christ's world Kingdom, or that false one world government? Duh... once more, about the false world kingdom Christ is coming to smash to pieces! The very one that is being setup on earth TODAY! The very false kingdom

I agree that Jesus is the stone. But this prophecy has already been fulfilled. I admit that I do not know precisely what the ten horns represent. But let’s be fair – the fact that I do not have an opinion about what they represent does not mean that your futuristic take is automatically correct – you need to actually make a case.

Your argument is massively circular and so it is a little disturbing that you insult my intelligence with all the “duh’sâ€.

You simply assume that a whole bunch of things lie in the future and then imply that I am lacking in wit becaue I do not share your assumption.

Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are about the same thing – the defeat of kingdoms. You assume that this defeat has yet to take place. I go along with what Jesus says cryptically to Caiaphus – they were defeated at the cross. Now I do not have time make the relevant argument right now.

And I am quite confident that that the argument will show that the 4th beast in Daniel 7, which maps to the feet of the statue in Daniel 2 represents both Rome, at one level, and corrupt Israel at another.

 

[Drew]

If that is already history, like the deceived say,...

If your arguments are so good, why do you resort to this rhetoric? I suggest that you let your arguments do the talking and leave the demonizing rhetoric to the politicians.

You are shortly (in the next day or so) to be challenged on your nterpretation of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. Then we will see who is deceived.

 

[veteran]

You see, I have understood you as asserting that the land of Palestine was promised forever to ethnic Jews, and ethnic Jews only. If you do not believe this, then we are in agreement, at least about the issue of “who†Palestine was promised to.

So then, you've held a false assumpiton about what I've been saying all along? That would show you're not actually listening to what I've been saying wouldn't it?

 

[veteran]

Your argument is massively circular and so it is a little disturbing that you insult my intelligence with all the “duh’sâ€.

You simply assume that a whole bunch of things lie in the future and then imply that I am lacking in wit becaue I do not share your assumption.

Yeah, my argument in posting all those Daniel examples is kind of "circular", isn't it? But I can cover all those Daniel chapters just as well that point to that same context, just as the relevant Revelation Scripture does also. But you posted just a little part and then took the Daniel Message as a whole out of context. I merely allowed the Scripture in Daniel to speak for itself of the timing and requirement of a false beast kingdom being setup on this earth when Christ comes, and He destroys it, and sets up His everlasting Kingdom, with never another beast kingdom appearing again. All that being on earth of course.

 

[veteran]

If that is already history, like the deceived say,...

If your arguments are so good, why do you resort to this rhetoric? I suggest that you let your arguments do the talking and leave the demonizing rhetoric to the politicians.

You are shortly (in the next day or so) to be challenged on your nterpretation of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. Then we will see who is deceived.

So you'll know and understand, I have no intention on of continuing with the arguments you make like I must be cornered while you blatantly disregard the Scripture evidence I've posted on topic.

I'm going to begin a new Thread called "Kingdom theology", for that's the topic you keep bringing up here, and not the actually idea of the "one world government" system per the globalists planning. I think you well understand the term 'globalism' and 'globalist', and know better than to refer to those groups as having any relation to Christ's everlasting Kingdom.

 

[parousia70]

A one world government shouldn't concern us as much as a one world religion. :shocked!

Interesting...

The only "one world government/religion" I know of that is prophesied in scripture is this one:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I find absolutely NOTHING to fear about this, the ONLY prophesied "one world government/religion" found in scripture.

That's an interesting twist, because our Lord Jesus defined the world beast system of Rev.13:1 in Rev.17, and He even gave comparisons to it with the old world beast kingdoms of Daniel 7 in the next verse of Rev.13:2.

Where do those scriptures prophesy anything about a Global Government apart from the one Daniel prophesied with Jesus at it's head?

Do you believe that Acts 2:5 testifies that Jews from China, Japan, Australia, the Americas, Korea, Thailand, etc... were in Jerusalem on Pentecost?... it does say Jews from "EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN" were there on that 1st century day, doesn't it? Every nation under heaven is certainly as "all encompassing Global" a statement as you are gonna find in scripture

Sounds like you deny the existence of those old historical beast kingdoms of Daniel,

Rather, it sounds like you deny Daniels prophesy of a one world Government with JESUS at it's head....

Is wild speculation just a hobby of yours, or is it more serious than that?

 

[veteran]

Then I guess the following is for those who are well aware of the present globalist movement today towards a "one world government" over all nations and peoples on earth. those who deny that working in today's time can keep on denying it; it's not going to go away, for it is prophecy per our Lord's Word.

Rev 13:1-2
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus compared that Rev.13:1 beast system with the previous world beast kingdoms of Dan.7. Note in Rev.13:2 He gave three beast kingdom symbols from Dan.7, for there's only three given in Daniel. But there are a total of FIVE beast kingdoms written of in Dan.7. Some stop at only four, but there's actually five beast kingdoms written of in Dan.7.

Here's the order and symbols of the previous beast kingdoms of history, and they also parallel the order of the beast image statue parts given in Dan.2, from Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

1st symbol of the lion; head of gold:
kingdom of Babylon, under king Nebuchadnezzar. It engulfed many of the civilized nations of its time, including Israel. Dan.2 says Nebuchadnezzar represented the head of gold of the beast image.

2nd symbol of the bear; breast and arms of silver:
The Medo-Persia empire, which conquered the Babylon empire.

3rd symbol of the leopard; belly and thighs of brass:
The Macedonian empire under Alexander the Great, which conquered the Medo-Persia empire, and reached from Europe to India.

4th no symbol given; legs of iron:
The Roman empire, which then conquered Alexander's Macedonian empire. The Roman empire also had far reaches into Asia and Europe. It was the beast world empire that existed at our Lord's first coming, and during the time of Apostle John in Revelation. It lasted all the way into the 3rd century A.D.

5th no symbol given; feet of unmixed iron and clay:
The final world beast kingdom to be setup on earth, the one of the "little horn" that is to exist on earth when Christ comes to defeat it, and gathering the saints unto Himself. This is the one that is being setup today over all the earth. All the previous beast kingdoms of history did not reach to every part of the earth. They did not literally conquer all lands. But this last one, the 5th of the feet of iron and clay is to cover all lands, the whole earth, for it is the final one.

Because our Lord only gave 3 previous beast kingdom symbols in Rev.13:2 to compare to the beast of the first verse, some choose to think the Book of Revelation is past history ONLY about the old Roman empire, the fourth beast of legs of iron.

However, Dan.2 gives us a picture of the feet of unmixed iron and clay also as a separate part of the beast image. And it's the feet of the beast image which Christ is to strike to cause the whole image to tumble down, and then He sets up His everlasting Kingdom on earth after that. One must be careful to catch that last beast part of the image given there, because it is to have a certain relationship with all... the previous beast kingdoms before it, just as the old Roman empire did include the lands of the previous beast kingdoms on earth.

In other words, per the Dan.2 example, all the previous beast kingdoms are included within... the last one of unmixed iron and clay when Christ comes to strike the image at its feet.

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

All the parts of the Dan.2 beast image together... are to be broken when Christ comes. It means they will all be joined as one in the final beast kingdom on this earth. And count them, there's five parts: 1-iron, 2-brass, 3-CLAY, 4-silver, 5-gold. Our Lord Jesus did not mention the fourth beast kingdom of the Roman empire in Rev.13:2 because it was not over yet in John's day. It would continue all the way into the 3rd century A.D.

Since the Roman empire ended in the 3rd century A.D., has there ever been another beast world kingdom per this Biblical pattern established on this earth? No. So where's the 5th beast kingdom, the one of unmixed iron and clay, the final one? Because the last part of the beast image of feet is part iron, some believe the old Roman empire is going to be revived, and they tend to point to the forming up of today's European Union for that. If that's true, then what of the feet part of Clay? The joining of iron and clay represents the joining of the East and West, all nations on earth. That's why the feet of part iron and part clay just won't mix. And the joining of the East and West parts of the earth today under one head is specifically what world globalism is about, the idea of "one world government".

Western Christianity and eastern religions just are not going to mix. But that's what today's globalists are trying to do. Regardless of how hard they try, there will always exist that elect remnant from God that will know the difference, and will hold on to Christ Jesus and His Word as written, and not fall away to the socialist doctrines for their Global Church. It's wake up time for those in Christ given to understand this, for in rule over this final beast kingdom of the feet of iron and clay is going to be a king, a world king. But it is not going to be our Lord Jesus. It will be that false one Apostle Paul warned of us in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 that is to come and sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

That's what today's joining of nations is about. Our Heavenly Father has ordained it to happen per His Word of Truth.

Zeph 3:8
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
(KJV)

Joel 3:2
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land.
(KJV)