Open Discussion on Courtship/Dating...

[handy]

Often we visit this subject in Parents/Marriage and I know the teens discuss it... I'd like to have an opportunity to discuss the subject here where everyone can weigh in on it.

My husband and I believe in chaperoning our kids when they are with a person of the opposite sex. So far, the issue hasn't come up with our son...he's set to turn 12 in a few... But, our daughter has had one non-dating-but-serious relationship and one boyfriend... not to mention several boys who have come over to spend time with her.

We don't leave her alone with these guys. We do allow for "alone" time... in the sense that if they want to go to a movie or out to eat, we go, but we sit in a different area so that they can talk privately. Also, when at home, if they want to spend time just talking to each other, they can go out on our patio where we can't hear what they are saying, but we can see them. Out of earshot, but not out of sight.

We do indeed plan on keeping this up until they turn 18. There are several reasons for this.

One, we don't plan on allowing either of our kids to be married prior to 18 years of age. Since no relationship prior to that will be of the nature of an engagement, I cannot fathom why they should need to be completely alone with a person of the opposite sex. Now, should either become engaged prior to 18...and there is one young man that we would allow this to happen with our daughter...we would renegotiate this rule with them. However, unless she is engaged (and I can't fathom us allowing her to be engaged with anyone other than the one guy)...I don't see a reason to allow her to be alone with a guy.

We know our daughter, and quite frankly, I think she is now, and will continue to be a very trustworthy person. One evening, she spent all of five minutes on the front porch with a young man, waiting for his mom to pick him up...and in that 5 minutes he propositioned her. She sent him packing and we have never seen him again.

This isn't about not trusting her. It is, to a large extent about not knowing any guy well enough to know if we can trust him. We do trust the one guy, but other than him, we just don't know anyone in her orbit that we know...beyond any shadow of a doubt, that his commitment to stay pure until marriage is stronger than his attraction to her. Both Steve and I...old codgers that we are, know all too well how easily one can get caught up in passion when there is nothing but one's own convictions to put on the breaks. We know how hard this is at 26 and even 36, much less 16. This isn't evil...it's just natural. Sex is what it is, God's beautiful way to create intimacy within marriage and create new human beings. And also...one of the most powerful urges any human has...especially during adolescence.

Our commitment to chaperone her is also about just keeping away from every appearance of evil. Our daughter is quite pretty, looks WAAAYYYY older than 14, and is of the bubbly/vivacious type. She has already been the target of some vicious gossip, but the gossip dried up fairly quickly once several of her friends pointed out that she is never allowed to be alone with a guy. The gossiper was outed as a liar and is now no longer Viola's friend.

It has also been to her benefit... as she learned quickly ...with the 5 minute wonder, as well with a couple of other guys who tried to ditch her chaperone ... that yes, as a matter of fact, some guys (even those claiming to be Christian) really are only wanting her for one thing... and once they find out they can't get it, they move on rapidly. But, on the other hand, she has also had three relationships with three different guys who aren't out to get in her pants. She has learned that if they are willing to put up with the chaperoning, they truly are interested in her.

I don't think she'll be interested in us chaperoning her after she's 18, although we are certainly willing to do so. I do know that by 18, she'll be more mature and more able to handle herself and guys. Naturally, once she is engaged, it would be expected that she and her soon to be husband are together alone. I wouldn't have a problem with it.

But, until then, she is limited to being out of hearing, but never out of sight. She is never allowed PDA's when out in public and she is limited to just hand-holding, sitting together and hugs when at home.

Meanwhile, she is learning to base her relationships on communication rather than just get caught up in the always exciting and always good feeling physical stuff.

She doesn't like it, of course. Admittedly, I wouldn't have myself... But, it's what we're doing, and I think it will benefit her far more than hurt her in the long run. And, once our son gets a lot more interested in girls than he currently is (as of now he's interested, but terrified...) the same rules will be enforced with him. No double standards.

Thoughts?

 

[Ace1234]

I have no problem with you doing it at 12, but to continue it to 18, are you serious?

First, once they reach 16, and I have 3 over that, they will start asserting themselves as adults, your lack of trust and keeping a string attached to them will do nothing but promote anger and inner rebellion you may never see. You should know if teens want, they will find a way to be alone and do bad things, you can't watch them 24/7.

Teens want and need to grow up, making their own mistakes, etc., it's how they learn to become adults and function in the world, all you would be doing is delaying the process.

WHat is likely to happen is at 18 is for your chidlren to go totally into wild rebellious behavior that last for years, that's what happens to most kids that have parents that act as you do when they leave home.

 

[handy]

I have to say, Ace, that I've been told the same here in 'real life' by several others who believe exactly as you do.

However... and this is just a simple statement of fact, not a judgment... each one who have told me that I'm crazy for intending upon chaperoning our kids until 18... at least the one's here in 'real life', each of them have children under the age of 18 who are openly sexually active, one of whom was a grandma when her child was 16.

On the other side of the coin, I know of other families who chaperoned their kids until 18... and... the kid turned 18. No wild rebellion, no sex, drugs, etc.

I know what your speaking about. When I lived in NC and lived near both Wake Forest and Bowman Gray, we had the running joke about "BSS" Baptist Student Syndrome, where kids who grew up repressed went absolutely nuts when they got to college. Most of these kids were kids who were never allowed to date, watch movies, listen to any kind of secular music etc.

Our kids have very active social lives, both with church and with public school. Our daughter goes to all the dances (her daddy chaperones), goes to the movies, water-slides, arcades, generally live the normal life of a teenager. She goes in groups, or if with a date, with family (but we give them their space). She just can't be out of sight.

If teens are to convince adults that they are "trustworthy" enough... then why the threat of really bad behavior if they simply cannot be out of sight of a chaperone on their dates (even though they can be out of hearing range)? Is that 'adult' behavior? To threaten really bad behavior if one can't do whatever one wants?

 

[AirDancer]

I fully understand your position, Handy ... as parents, we wish to protect our children, to train them up so they can stand on their own two feet as adults, to make the best correct decision when considering the options, and to help them to develop discernment. Parenting has to be a harder task than any other job in the world.

Something I did differently when my offspring arrived at 16 was to allow them to date only in group settings. For a year (provided all went well), at age 17, they were allowed solo dates. Irregardless of the setting (group or otherwise), I had to know the destination, and the curfew had to be met.

At 18, off to university each went, and although they encountered pressure, they each stayed true to the basic principles of dating established when they were younger. (Two are now married; 1 with children....my youngest is in a long-term relationship.)

How you decide to raise your children is your decision...and tho I don't know you, the sense I have is that you maintain healthy & open conversations (not lectures) with your daughter & son. My prayers are with .... these are tough days to raise teenagers.

- AD

 

[modernnihilst]

An intresting way around teenage hormones. My father and I used a different solution he asked me to have several of my fellow fighter friends over, I was a pro fighter at the time in Japan when my little sister went on her first "date". One would be amazed at how quickly hormones disapear when faced with 7 fighters with nicknames like "axe murderer" she was home 30 mins early and clearly upset at me, aperently he was so scared he wouldnt ever hold her hand for fear of upsetting her "brothers" . I dont think he talked much about anything else according to my sister(at the time 17).

 

[AirDancer]

Yes, modernnihilst, that would definitely be effective, and I'm sure your sister has never forgotten the incident!

She may have been mortified....but it has certainly brought laughter into my household....thank you for sharing this with us!

:biglol

 

[handy]

Group dates... oh yeah, no problems with that at all... of course there will come a time when they're going to want to do something just the two of them.

MN... that's hilarious....and apparently quite effective.

That reminds me of the time she was wondering if we were going to allow her to be alone with her "serious but not dating" guy... of course not. When she was complaining about it, I told her what the guy in question told me his future daughter to be was going to face when as-yet-unborn girl brought dates home... (He's really into MMA and is working towards being a cop... knows quite a bit about weapons too....) She has it easy in comparison!!! ;)

 

[handy]

Air Dancer you said, "you maintain healthy & open conversations (not lectures) with your daughter & son."

We try to ... and I'm very happy that even now as she is well into her teen years and is in high school, our daughter is very open with us and we talk over everything. We're very blessed that she's as open as she is.

 

[AirDancer]

That openess in communication is so important....and very special indeed.

In 3 blinks of the eye, when your children are adults and off into their futures, the comment you'll hear from them is: "I miss those times we sat about & talked. You were - and still are - interested in what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, who I am."

*sigh* I miss those spontaneous times as well.

 

[Navigator]

While I know that most teenage boys should not be trusted; there are many good guys out there (I think I was, who really wasn't looking to take advantage of girls or anything like that).

The issue I have, though, isn't with the guys, it's with your daughter. You say that your daughter is a "very trustworthy person," but then turn around and say you're going to chaperon all of her alone dates with a boy until she is 18... I don't understand that. I get that you may say you simply don't trust the boys, but unless they force themselves on her physically (which 90%..maybe more..of guys will NOT do on a simple date)..SHE HAS A CHOICE. And by making a point to keep an eye on her until she's 18...you're saying that you do not trust that she'll make the right choice. But by re-reading your OP it confuses me more, because she's proven herself to be responsible!

I understand you love your daughter more than anything and want to protect her...and maybe me not having kids myself...my opinion is skewed, but I don't really agree with the 18 mark.

 

[handy]

I appreciate your input, Navigator.

One thing I'll never claim to be is a perfect parent. We most certainly have made mistakes in raising our kids, and will (unfortunately) continue to do so, despite our best efforts.

Which is why, I revisit the idea every now and then and glean the thoughts and opinions of others. So far, when weighing everything, I haven't found sufficient reason to not continue on with the idea of chaperoning the kids.

But, I do continue to listen....

 

[Sparkey]

There are three things police consider when evaluating a crime (or so we are taught by television): Means, Motive, and Opportunity. Although, with your position and commitment to chaperoning, there will likely be some issues that will arise that parents who avoid their responsibility won't face, it is likely that prevention of opportunity will effectively curtail the major, life-changing events, that frankly, kids are not prepared for.

When well intentioned people spoke to me about my choices when raising my teens, I wasn't on the right side of things. I was a smoker so their doom and gloom predictions were that my kids would grow angry at me, and would distance themselves from me, or worse that they too would smoke. Both my kids are grown, both were raised in love and both continue with respect for me even though I was wrong and provided a bad example.

If kids can understand parents who are wrong about stuff, why is it so difficult to believe that they can understand when their parents are following God and acting responsibly? I think they can and if there was something that I could go back and change in my teen years, it would be the amount of interest that my parents had in my affairs and life. Both parents worked, there was too much "free time" and at the extreme, one time I rented a motorcycle from a friend, told my parents that I was going to spend the night at a different friend's house - and at the tender age of 14, rode the motorcycle more than 200 miles away to see a girl. No, we didn't have sex, but still, inattention isn't an expression of love, it is a form of neglect.

 

[Mike]

Good parenting is emotionally exhausting. As our oldest reached different stages of youth, we needed to make tougher and tougher decisions. How far can he ride his bike down the block? What movies can he see? Joshua is getting his drivers license tomorrow... TOMORROW!!! I'm going to seize up this website with the amount of threads I'll start over this change!

Until now, the only time he's gone anywhere with a girl was to dances at school and to movies with a group. In both situations, we walked them in and out. I wasn't bad on dates growing up, but I didn't really have a moral compass, and I know what I wanted to do. The situation didn't really present itself on dates. I worry about the practical things. Hormones can take common sense out of the equation. In my mind, I think about incremental steps leading to out of control behavior.

Thing is, I imagine he'll be going away to college, and that's only 30 months away. I'm afraid of being so restrictive, he's like a bullet out of a gun.

Don't even get me started about our 13 and 10 year old princesses out on dates. One stresser at a time.

 

[handy]

Spar and Mike, here is a thought that constantly goes through my head:

Two hormonally charged teenagers who are attracted to each other spending hours alone with each other. AKA modern dating.

I took to heart what Navigator said about trusting Viola, I really did.

But......

Two hormonally charged teenagers who are attracted to each other spending hours alone with each other.

For most of the history of mankind, and even still in many, many nations, the idea of sending two hormonally challenged teenagers who are attracted to each other off alone for hours just didn't happen. Chaperones were the norm.

However, in modern Western society, chaperoning is always challenged as a "lack of trust".

Then again, modern Western society is faced with overwhelming teen pregnancy rates and std's.

Thanks for the encouragement Spar... Viola does indeed complain. Her method seems to be total shock and amazement at the (apparently completely new, no matter how many times it's been brought up before) thought of chaperoning. "What!?! What do you mean I can't just walk over and meet him at the theater!!!!" But, in the times that we aren't dealing with the issue first hand...times like last night when she and I had an in-depth heart to heart talk, she has conceded that it hasn't been that bad and has actually been of benefit at times.


To Mike, I have mixed feelings about the kid's getting their driver's licenses. On the one hand, I'm terrified. Terrified of all the many crosses we pass going anywhere, anywhere at all. Terrified of a lethal weapon being controlled by ... my lovely little girl.

But, then again, with the amount of driving I do on a weekly basis, having someone to take over sounds really nice.

 

[Sparkey]

The thing that reassures me is that I found myself becoming the parent that my particular lunatic kids needed. I remember something about a promise of being fitted to the task that is given. The "yoke" that is fitted to the ox is hand rubbed. Tell you what, nothing ever changed me more than parenting. I was never more motivated in prayer then when my kids were in trouble and there was nothing I could do but go to Him.

It really is a very personal relationship that we have with the Lord and He knows it, He knows our hearts and will not hide. That's the whole of it, when families are growing together with God as the head of the family we all learn to lean on Him. I know you guys already know this and mine is just another voice, but thinking back, there is no way I could have made it without the Lord. Hopefully we are spared the kind of things that can really break a person but even if not, He stands with us and in it, right there throughout.

I'm on the other end of the parenting cycle and a grand-parent now. It's better in a way, but in another way, I miss being there for my kids to depend on. Still, my understanding of my role as a parent, and especially as a Father, is the major factor in the growth of my understanding of the Lord. My kids saw it, yours do also. That's the key. Every good parent knows a thousand reasons their little rascals are lovable. It sounds trite but loving your kids and teaching them obedience leads them to the time when He will reason with them, "If your father, being evil, knows how to give good gifts to his children, how much moreso will I?"

 

[Sparkey]

To me, the issue wasn't dating (because I had boys and they were both challenged in the 'girlfriend' department) but instead it was spanking. I started them thinking about the issue early on, and I'm sure you've done the same with your daughter (with other "issues"). The approach that worked best for me was to ask them to look around and survey their friends.

I asked my boys to ask their friends, "Do your parents love you?"
and then encouraged them to look beneath the surface and follow up with, "How do you know?"

It took about two or three days for them to have enough time for me to bring up the subject again, and my older son came back with stories about kids whose fathers might come home drunk or be abusive. You can fill in the rest of the "method" for yourself and imagine how the conversation went. "Would it be okay if I knew you were doing something that would hurt you and I did nothing?"

"What if I ignored bad behavior and just showed you that I loved you by doing nice things (only)?"

You'd know better how to broach the subject (in terms of overview) for your daughter but I think that's the main point that parents have to do. Clue the kids in on the fact that you're put in position and given many years to establish a long-term point of view. Parents are given authority because they can see further and even if the things they worry about don't appear likely, they are the very things that all families need to be concerned with.

 

[Sparkey]

lol - I'm rather talkative today...

Okay, there is a period of time, let's just say it happens somewhere between 15 and 25 years old, where kids begin to assume more and more "adult" responsibility. They learn to drive, learn how to keep their integrity and remain true to themselves and hearts while forming more and more relationships, some get jobs, most learn to prioritize things so that they are successful in school and etcetra...

Every parent knows that this is a critical time for their kids. The human brain doesn't stop developing until around the age of 24, so even though they are able to do more and more on their own, it stands to reason that this is a time of discovery as well. I see it as a time that needs to be balanced in design through a mutual discourse between young adult and parent. A time to take advantage of the "umbrella" of protection that a parent provides and still allow for excursions out into the big, wide world, complete with all the risks -- but where the progression goes from being dependent to becoming the persons they dream of becoming.

The very fact that you are seeking opinions of others and moreso, that you are continuing in conversation with your daughter is probably the most encouraging thing I hear. Today isn't the day to say, "Time for the change, dear. Today, you are an adult," but there is no magical time for that. Knowing that it is a process of give and take, that the general direction you both travel toward is fully agreed upon, and remaining willing to take risks as you continue to parent your young adult, while learning how to release the reigns and "drive blind" is probably going to be a very scary thing. Pilot to co-pilot is today. Your daughter as pilot to your being co-pilot is tomorrow and solo flight will all too soon be upon both of you.

 

[handy]

lol - I'm rather talkative today...

Always blessed to hear your thoughts, Spar!

I think too often everyone get's hung up on the magical number "18". Looking back, I know that one's late teens, and even into the early 20's are the time when we truly go from being a kid to becoming an adult.

Sure, by 18, the kids will be ready to date on their own, make their own choices as to career, living arrangements, yadda, yadda. Basically, once they get past 18, they will certainly be in "pilot" position.

But, even after I turned 18, moved away from home and entered college (and even after my sisters and brother were married at 18, 17 and 19 respectively), I (and they) still needed a "co-pilot". I moved in with a friend and apartment hopped for a bit, then wound up back at home finding that going to college full time and working part time was a lot. I'd say that mom and dad remained "co-pilots" for me for quite a long while...and the experience was all good. I made mistakes, but was young enough to overcome them (with mom and dad's help) and move on.

We, as a society, have decided that, unless there are special circumstances, 16-17 is too young to expect a child to live out on his/her own. Unless a judge approves and the courts are involved, no parent can allow their child to live on their own without facing child neglect charges. And yet, given a good parent/child relationship, what really would be the consequences if a kid did move out too early? Most likely, said kid finds out that living on one's own isn't as awesome as previously thought, acknowledges the mistake and moves back home for a couple of years.

But, when two young kids who are sexually attracted to each other make a mistake... the consequences can be and often are life long. This was at the heart of our talk last night. There's a boy... she genuinely likes him. He genuinely likes her. But, he made a mistake with his last girlfriend and now the girl is 4 months pregnant. His life is unalterably changed now and, even though he likes Viola and she likes him... he has major, life-changing decisions to be made regarding the baby and these decisions are going to impact his day-to-day life from now on out.

When mistakes are of that magnitude, I think a responsible parent holds off vacating the pilot's seat. 18 is still quite young...however, by then my kids will have been more or less forced to deal with their sexuality in some other way than acting upon it. By then, after so many years of building up coping strategies and self-control, they will be able to draw on them when inevitably faced with sexual temptation.

At least, that's our theory.

 

[Nick]

While I know that most teenage boys should not be trusted; there are many good guys out there (I think I was, who really wasn't looking to take advantage of girls or anything like that).

The issue I have, though, isn't with the guys, it's with your daughter. You say that your daughter is a "very trustworthy person," but then turn around and say you're going to chaperon all of her alone dates with a boy until she is 18... I don't understand that. I get that you may say you simply don't trust the boys, but unless they force themselves on her physically (which 90%..maybe more..of guys will NOT do on a simple date)..SHE HAS A CHOICE. And by making a point to keep an eye on her until she's 18...you're saying that you do not trust that she'll make the right choice. But by re-reading your OP it confuses me more, because she's proven herself to be responsible!

I understand you love your daughter more than anything and want to protect her...and maybe me not having kids myself...my opinion is skewed, but I don't really agree with the 18 mark.

I totally agree.

Dora (and others) I understand your desire to raise your children in a protective environment for as long as possible. And I agree that we need to be raising our kids in a Christian home and raise them in Christ.

However, I believe there needs to be a time where the teen can make their own choices and needs to understand how to handle more freedom. Letting them learn this when they go off later on particularly in college may not be a good idea. Teens need to deal with their hormones with the support of parents and family, but not the restirctions and protections of them.

Teens are charged with hormones. Until I came on this forum, I never ever heard that suppressing their hormones is a good idea. Teach them self control. Teach them the Christian way. Give them a bit of trust. I'm pretty sure I would've blown a fuse if my parents had insisted on chaperognes, certainly beyond 16.

I'll post what I wrote in the teens forum recently...

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with courtship, in fact it is definatley a good prelude for engagement. I see courtship as better and more Biblical than dating. I've always seen courtship as somethinlg more serious and with a longer-term understanding and intention than dating, although I dont' really have much against dating.

My parents have similar views, although I am yet to date or court a girl. It just hasn't happened yet, but I pray for a partner.

In terms of spending time alone with your partner (unmarrioed) I know many on this form, espcailly handy (sorry handy) that would not allow their kids to really be alone prior to perhaps 17 or 18 for fear of sexual temptation.

I would hope that in Christian circles by the age of 16 or 17 (max) the two people in the relationship would have enough maturity and hojpefully trust from their parents to be able to date ie have idnner, movies etc alone. I am a big believer in the privacy of the individual and a cuuple, particularly when it comes to these types of things. A couple can only really get to know each other, and know if they are suitible to get married (which should generally be the purpose of courtship) if they can spend time togther - and only together.

Now don't get me wrong, I first-handed know the realities of sexual temptation. Tod deal with this bit, I believe in the fellowship and teachings of the parents and church rather than direct supervision by parents.


---

Dora, have you considered that Viola may wiish more freedom in making her own choices, or at least being able to spend some quality time alone with a good friend?

Said in Love.

 

[handy]

Thanks for your input Nick... I'm especially glad to hear from some of the younger members on this subject.

You bring up the need for couples to have private time. As I've said, we do allow our daughter private time with a boyfriend, in the sense that the two of them can sit out on the patio, where they can be seen but not heard. Conversely, there have been times when we've sat out on the patio and allowed her and her not-boyfriend-but-nonetheless-important beau to sit at the dining room table and chat. Also, when going to movies or to a restaurant, it's expected that she and her date would sit in a different part of the theater or dining room, within sight, but not right there with us.

And, we don't ask her what she discusses with her boyfriends when alone with them. As a matter of fact, I've told her that it's important in a relationship to not discuss with others what is said in private, unless there is something really wrong.

Is there any reason why this isn't enough privacy for two people who are not engaged? Keep in mind, we aren't going to allow our daughter to become engaged with anyone (with the possible exception of the not-boyfriend-but-nonetheless-important beau) while she is under 17.

(I should add that if the not-boyfriend-but-nonetheless-important beau does ask her to marry him prior to her being 18, not likely, but possible I suppose, we would indeed allow them to go out on their dates without chaperonage.)