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Ordering the Soteriological Elements

I agree with

  • Supralapsarianism.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Amyraldism.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Arminianism.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
Gabbylittleangel said:
Arminianism

This seems to be the only selection that would include the words

"whosoever will"


LOL. Looks like if you believe in the Bible, you don’t get to be any type of Calvinist/Reformed. 57 varieties of pickles, only 1 kind of cucumber. Oh well, he probably thinks we all look alike. :wink:
 
Where is the "none of the above"?

The depth of the question being asked is not revealed in the question or the answers.

One thing that is critical to understand is that God is not bound by time. So all of the events listed, assuming they are biblically correct, were all ordained at one time according to His decree, or His eternal purpose.

People could easily assume into the examples that God is responding (in time), which is false, and will be a stumbling point for them from the outset.

The question needs to be asked while understanding that God is not bound by time. All the things listed, assuming that they are biblically correct, were decreed from before the foundations of the world. In other words, God is not making it up as He's going. Everything, from beginning to end has been worked out from before the foundations of the world. God ordaining all these things according to His decree (His purpose), whether it was His permissive or effectual will, and all this according to His being all knowing and not His looking into the future to see what libertarian free will choice man will make. The latter being a man made philosophy nowhere found in scripture.

The question that is really being asked, in differentiating Supralapsarianism
from Infralapsarianism, is...did God simply know Adam was going to fall, and thus worked it into His plan from the foundations of the world to reach the end He desired, thus permissively having a fixed end? Or did Adam have a effectual fixed end when he was created? I believe that the latter would make God the creator of sin and evil, which is false.

We know everything has a fixed end in God's mind, because what he didn't cause (effectual), He did allow (permissive) to take place, knowing it would, and all this was worked into His perfect plan, or decree from the foundations of the world to reach His desired end for all.

Here is the crux in my mind, and my brief answer...Since God cannot be the author of evil or sin, Adam's fall was not directly effectual (with a fixed end). It must have be permissable (with a fixed end).

God cannot, by His very nature be the author of evil or sin.

Satan was created good, fallible, but good. God knew from the foundations of the world that Satan would fall (permissively, but giving him a fixed end), and allowed it because He had an ultimate good that would come from it, His glorification. This does not mean that God caused Satan to fall, it simply means that He knew it would happen before the foundations of the world (being all knowing) and created Satan for that purpose and worked his fall into His decree to reach the desired end that He purposed.


Adam was created good, fallible, but good. God knowing from the foundations of the world that Adam would sin, thus causing the fall of man, created Adam for this purpose, allowing what He knew would happen, to happen, with the end result in mind that was ultimately for good, His glorification. This does not mean that God caused the fall, it simply means that He knew it would happen before Adam was created and also before the foundations of the world and worked it into decree to reach the desired end that He purposed.

Thus, man is fallen by nature, unless God intervenes (effectually) and predestines man (elects him). Nobody is predestined to hell, they are simply left to themselves. God is not responsible for their sin or their spiritual condition.

No double predestination.

Satan had a free will, but also a fixed end as part of God's eternal purpose, God being all knowing, created Satan for this purpose and permissively willed it according to His eternal plan.

Adam had a free will, but also a fixed end as part of God's eternal purpose, God being all knowing, created Adam for this purpose and permissively willed it according to His eternal plan.

Man does not have a free will. He is a slave to sin and his sinful nature. Left to himself, he cannot and will not seek God. Man is permissively damned. Man is effectually (predestined) saved from that state, whoever God is so moved to save predestine.

Does that make sense?

Dave

P.S. Calvin was content to leave questions as question when he believed that scripture was ambiguous. Beza, trying to systematize Calvin's work was the first to raise the questions which started the Supralapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism debate. Arminius rejected both Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism because neither would allow for his preconceived philosophy of libertarian free will. Hence Arminiism.
 
Dave...

Augustine taught double predestination:
[God] used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice he has predestined to punishment.
[The human] race we have distributed into two parts, the one consisting of those who live according to man, the other of those who live according to God. And these we also mystically call the two cities, or the two communities of men, of which the one is predestined to reign eternally with God, and the other to suffer eternal punishment with the devil.

Martin Luther taught double predestination:
"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

John Calvin taught double predestination:
As Scripture, then, clearly shows, we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable counsel . . . those whom he had determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. We assert that, with respect to the elect, this counsel was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth; but by his just and irreprehensible but incomprhensible judgement [sic] he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation. Now among the elect we regard the call as a testimony of election. Then we hold justification another sign of its manifestation, until they come into the glory in which the fulfillment of election lies. But as the Lord seals his elect by call and justification, so, by shutting off the reprobate from knowledge of his name or from the sanctification of his Spirit, he, as it were, reveals by these marks what sort of judgment awaits them. (Richard A. Muller, “Christ And The Decree: Christology And Predestination In Reformed Theology From Calvin To Perkins,†22 quoting John Calvin, Institutio christianae religionis II (Geneva, 1559).

http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredes ... proul.html

Reading what you wrote, I'd say you're infra.

:lol:
 
Bah! :lol:

"Christ's death was SUFFICIENT FOR ALL but EFFICIENT only for those who believe."

I didn't vote. The closest to my beliefs is Arminian. On the previous page, I pointed out the five points of Arminianism an disagreed outright with #5 and #1 is a bit "fuzzy".

Strangrly enough, the early Arminians were persectuted for their beliefs. :-?
 
Vic C. said:
Bah! :lol:


I didn't vote. The closest to my beliefs is Arminian. On the previous page, I pointed out the five points of Arminianism an disagreed outright with #5 and #1 is a bit "fuzzy".

Strangrly enough, the early Arminians were persectuted for their beliefs. :-?

Vic I could be wrong, but as far as I know the persecutions were thru church courts and synods, not physical. The Ariminians were removed from pastoral office by elders of there churches and removed from teaching posts thru similar means. The elders in the Reformed church vote and carry out the actions of the synod.

If you want to know about persecutions by Calvinists, google Beza! Or you could google the 30, 000 Anabaptists that were killed by RC's, Calvinists and Lutherans...in 11 years.

Don't mistake me for being large case "R"eformed, I'm still a baptist.

:halfrobot:

~JM~
 
JM said:
Martin Luther taught double predestination:
"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

Given that I am a Lutheran, I did some reaserch on this through our synod's website. Here are some excerpts I have found. I guess it scares me to think that God would have pegged some of creation to go to Hell. How do you know it's not you? How does any Christian know that when he/she struggles that the thought, "maybe i'm not suppose to go to heaven" wouldn't creep up?

---
Please note that the Wisconsin Synod teaches predestination to salvation alone. Predestination to damnation is rejected. Predestination is based on God’s grace alone. There was nothing in any human being that would cause God to choose him. The Wisconsin Synod teaches universal atonement (Christ died for the sins of all). God also desires the salvation of every sinner. We do not try to rationalize why some are saved and not others in a way that is satisfying to human reason. We believe that if a person is saved it is all to God’s credit. If a person is lost, it is completely that person’s fault.

Luther in his Bondage of the Will (1525) can at times seem as if he taught double predestination. However, it is always necessary to look at the historical circumstances of any particular writing of Luther. His Bondage of the Will was written in response to Erasmus’ Concerning Free Choice in which Erasmus contended that human beings by nature have the ability to do good in God’s eyes and to choose to serve him and believe in him. Luther makes some strong statements to demonstrate Erasmus’ error. If you were to read more of Luther it would become clear that, unlike Calvin, Luther taught that God’s grace is universal (Smalcald Articles III, 4, Large Catechism 2nd Petition, 54, Weimar Ausgabe 52:618). Christ atoned for the sins of all and God has forgiven all (Luther’s Works 40:366-367). Luther does not try to harmonize God’s will to save all and his particular predestination of the elect. The answer to that question belongs to the hidden will of God. Human beings are not to inquire into this nor would it do them any good to try (LW 33:140). Luther was content to let this paradox stand: if a person is saved it is completely to God’s credit; if a person is lost it is completely that person’s own fault. He did not try to find an explanation that would be satisfactory to human reason and human logic.

Melanchthon in his Loci Communes of 1543 departed from the teaching of Scripture and Luther by giving the human will a role to play in conversion and God’s election. He wrote, “Since the promise is universal and since in God there are not conflicting wills, it is necessary that there is some cause within us for the difference why Saul is rejected and David received, that is, there must be a different action on the part of the two men. When these points are rightly understood, they are true and useful in the exercise of faith and true consolation. Since our souls rest in the Son of God who is shown to us in the promise, this will cast light upon the connection of the causes which are the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and the will of man.†Later Lutherans rightly accused Melanchthon of the error called synergism.
---

Source

As I have said before (in my limited understanding of much theology). I can clearly see a difference between God choosing people whom are going to hell (fatalism) and being that He is all-knowing, He would know those who would reject him.

(If i'm way off in left field in this debate, please let me know. Not trying to step on any toes here...)
 
Fnerb,

Lutheran theology changed a lot during the 17th century, departing even further then Melanchthon, then we have the Lutherans being touched by the Orthodox Movement of the 1850's returning more to its Catholic roots. Have you ever watched "The Journey Home" it's on EWTN? Anyhoo, the Lurtherans that "come home" to catholicism always site how far Lutheranism has changed from Luthers teaching.

Are you LCMS?

~JM~
 
reply

My Thelogy is not based on what John Calvin. Charles Spurgeon, Billy Graham, Martin Luthur, Kenneth Hagan, and many more past or present might have to say. My thelogy is based on the Word of God, Written and Rhema Word. Yes, I do believe in teachers, but we must discern what they might be saying. When in Doubt, ask God.

Jm, I still do not understand all these fancy definitions you gave as a basis for your beliefs. Why don't you tell me in your own words what you mean by Predestination and election? I stated my beliefs by using the Word of God.

Fnerb, I have a few questions for you: I admit I don't know that much about the Lutheran Church. Has the Lutheran Church stopped their support for Israel? I heard they have. Is the Lutheran Church going to allow Gay People to be ordained Ministers? I think at their last meeting with all the leaders, they were pretty close to allowing this to happen. By the way, I have a big collection of original sermans by Luther. My friend has ancestry that goes way back to when Luther had to be hidden from the Catholic's in his household. Thought you might be interested.



May God bless, Golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Fnerb, I have a few questions for you: I admit I don't know that much about the Lutheran Church. Has the Lutheran Church stopped their support for Israel? I heard they have.

What do you mean exactly by support of Israel?

golfjack said:
Is the Lutheran Church going to allow Gay People to be ordained Ministers?

WELS is consdiered a "Lutheran" church. There are however numerous denominations of Lutheran churches that we do not affiliate ourselves with for the very reason you are asking this. (LCMS, ELS, ELCA to name a few). On the subject of Gay pastors, The Wisconsin Synod (WELS) does not ordain pastors who are openly "gay." Scripture clearly states that homosexual behavior is sinful (Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). The Bible also clearly states that those who serve in the public ministry are to be "above reproach" (1 Timothy 3:2) and "blameless" (not open to accusations of gross and public sin - Titus 1:6). To install into the public ministry a man who is caught up in such a sin would be contrary to Scripture.
 
JM said:
Vic I could be wrong, but as far as I know the persecutions were thru church courts and synods, not physical. The Ariminians were removed from pastoral office by elders of there churches and removed from teaching posts thru similar means. The elders in the Reformed church vote and carry out the actions of the synod.

If you want to know about persecutions by Calvinists, google Beza! Or you could google the 30, 000 Anabaptists that were killed by RC's, Calvinists and Lutherans...in 11 years.

Don't mistake me for being large case "R"eformed, I'm still a baptist.

:halfrobot:

~JM~
Thanks Jason. I should clarify my beliefs. It is my understanding that back then, there was no seperation whatsoever between the church and "state" and for the most part, the more serious form of persecution was excommunication. That seemed to be the case in Geneva anyway. This presents a problem, for me anyway. They replaces a system that was, different in theology but very similar as far as where the power of the civil magistrate originates. All authority was passed down from the clergy.

When you think of what happened in Geneva with Servetus and Calvin, just the slightest form of church and state seperation would have removed him from any responsibility for the decision. But one might wonder still, why he didn't take actions to stop the burning at the stake. It was a rather Dark Age approach to any form of alleged heresy.

One more thing; I'm not actually looking for this history, it just crops up during research. But thanks, I will do the search you suggested.

Peace,
Vic
 
My Thelogy is not based on what John Calvin. Charles Spurgeon, Billy Graham, Martin Luthur, Kenneth Hagan, and many more past or present might have to say. My thelogy is based on the Word of God, Written and Rhema Word. Yes, I do believe in teachers, but we must discern what they might be saying. When in Doubt, ask God.

On the other hand, God calls Pastors to guide us and give goodly advice, it’s important that we head the advice of trusted men of God.

Jm, I still do not understand all these fancy definitions you gave as a basis for your beliefs. Why don't you tell me in your own words what you mean by Predestination and election? I stated my beliefs by using the Word of God.

DratZ! My plan to confuse you all with fancy theological terminology has been foiled. [kidding]

What do I believe? That studying the decrees of God can make ones head hurt!

Thanks Jason. I should clarify my beliefs. It is my understanding that back then, there was no seperation whatsoever between the church and "state" and for the most part, the more serious form of persecution was excommunication. That seemed to be the case in Geneva anyway. This presents a problem, for me anyway. They replaces a system that was, different in theology but very similar as far as where the power of the civil magistrate originates. All authority was passed down from the clergy.

When you think of what happened in Geneva with Servetus and Calvin, just the slightest form of church and state seperation would have removed him from any responsibility for the decision. But one might wonder still, why he didn't take actions to stop the burning at the stake. It was a rather Dark Age approach to any form of alleged heresy.

One more thing; I'm not actually looking for this history, it just crops up during research. But thanks, I will do the search you suggested.

Peace,
Vic

When you study the Reformation, don’t forget the Anabaptists were just as, or even more nuts. Many believed in polygamy, that Christian shouldn’t pay ANY tax to the state, and don’t forget the Zwickau prophets or the Peasants' War. The Munster rebellion was a good illustration of what the middle road Reformers were dealing with.

We can’t assume the Reformers hated the Anabaptist simply because they re-baptized adults, there is a whole slew of reason why they were detested. Heretical teaching leads the soul into hell fire was the final reasoning. It’s easy to look back thru the portal of time and judge Luther and Calvin.

Vic, have you ever wondered if Calvin thought he had a Biblical reason for a Church and state relationship?

Peace,

~JM~

PS: For the record, the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Calvinists condemned Servetus and Calvin was considered to “lenient†for having him decapitated rather then burned to death as the others would have done.
 
Reading what you wrote, I'd say you're infra.

I always considered myself leaning towards infra until I thought about some more in light of scripture. To me, infra and supra are the same, in light of the bigger questions that we are seeking the answers to. The order of events have no significance to God who is not bound by time. He is not reacting in time, making it up as time goes on. "From the foundations of the world" is just another way of saying that. Everything was made part of His decree at one time, even though we see these things play out in time. To illustrate... to me, the question being asked in the OP is... which came first, the chicken or the egg? My answer, in light of the bigger questions that we are seeking the answers to, is that it doesn't matter, because for God, from the foundations of the world, both were made part of His perfect plan at the same time. One is not a reaction to the other. Does that make sense? Maybe not the best illustration, but on short notice, that's the best I got. :lol:

Think about it this way...in your trying to determine the order of events "in time", per the question in the OP, what you are really asking is which event was decreed first, and then which decree was a reaction to the first event decreed, and so on. And in that way we can answer the tough questions easily. But God is not bound by time, see what I mean? Everything was decreed before the foundations of the world at one time.

Augustine taught double predestination:
[God] used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice he has predestined to punishment.
[The human] race we have distributed into two parts, the one consisting of those who live according to man, the other of those who live according to God. And these we also mystically call the two cities, or the two communities of men, of which the one is predestined to reign eternally with God, and the other to suffer eternal punishment with the devil.

Augustine uses the term "predestined" (where I italicized it in his quote), incorrectly. I'd be willing to bet that there is an error in translation. The term that should have been used, which would have lined up perfectly with what he had just finished saying, is "ordained". Clearly, the message by Augustine is not of double predestination when we consider the whole context, but just the opposite. I would check the translation.

In looking at his statement closer, the "whom in His justice" really changes the context. Do you see it? In other words, the predestine is after the fact of sin and just judgment. Whether or not the sin was effectual or permissive does not appear to be included in the context of the statement.

It's like saying God, being all knowing, from the foundations of the world, justly judged the sin that He knew would happen and not be overcome in Him. From that point forward, these are rightly judged (from the foundations of the world) and from that point "predestined to suffer eternal punishment". The predestine doesn't deal with the cause of sin. The context is smaller.

Martin Luther taught double predestination:
"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

Ordained, or foreordained, allows for both God's effectual and permissive will. Unless I don't understand the term correctly.

As Scripture, then, clearly shows, we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable counsel . . . those whom he had determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. We assert that, with respect to the elect, this counsel was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth; but by his just and irreprehensible but incomprhensible judgement [sic] he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation. Now among the elect we regard the call as a testimony of election. Then we hold justification another sign of its manifestation, until they come into the glory in which the fulfillment of election lies. But as the Lord seals his elect by call and justification, so, by shutting off the reprobate from knowledge of his name or from the sanctification of his Spirit, he, as it were, reveals by these marks what sort of judgment awaits them. (Richard A. Muller, “Christ And The Decree: Christology And Predestination In Reformed Theology From Calvin To Perkins,†22 quoting John Calvin, Institutio christianae religionis II (Geneva, 1559).

I think that you may be reading into this statement more than what is being said.

"but by his just and irreprehensible but incomprhensible judgement [sic] he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation."

A just action, not a meritless punishment. What is the source of man's bondage to sin? It can be traced back to Adam, we all sinned in Adam, who we also know was not bound by any sinful nature before he fell, therefore we must assume a free choice. To assume that God effectually caused Adam to sin, and thus the fall, would be reading more into scripture than it says, and in many way contrary to the plain teaching of scripture, that God is perfectly just, righteous, and Holy, Who cannot even be in the presence of sin. If God caused Adams sin, He would then be none of these, right?

BTW, just so people don't misunderstand what i'm saying. This free will argument i'm making from Adam, does not apply to all mankind. That's easy enough to see, right?

If everything God willed was effectual, then I would start with Genesis 50:20 and ask, did not God mean it for both evil and good?

If everything God willed was effectual, the Arminians would have a valid argument when they claim that this would then make man a robot.

Ultimately, when we ask from scripture to reveal when and where evil began and then snowballed from, scripture takes us to Satan, who we also have no valid reason from scripture to believe that he was effectually made to do these evil things. Satan is where evil and sin began. There is no proof in scripture to say that God effectually caused Satan to sin. In fact, as I already stated, this would be contrary to the simple truths of scripture, that God is perfectly Holy, just and righteous.

Likewise, the question of who is responsible for man's state of bondage to sin by nature? The answer can be traced back to Adam and no further. Adam who freely sinned. To assume God caused Adam to sin effectually would be contrary to scripture. God justly created man in bondage to sin by nature as a result of Adam's sin which He did not effectually cause.

If i'm not making any sense, tell me. It won't be the first time. :)
 
Ulitmately, when we reach the question of...

Since God knew Adam would sin, being all knowing, and then created him anyways, permissively willing/allowing it with an ultimate good in mind as the result, does this make God responsible for Adams sin?

The same can be asked of Satan's fall.

We know that God is by nature Holy, just and righteous. The law is a reflection of His very character. For this reason alone, I would say that no, God is not responsible. That's just too much to read into scripture and contradicts some very simple truths about God, even though some may have a hard time grasping these things and reasoning them out.

Everything He created, when He created it, was created good, even if it or they eventually became evil, or sinful. Satan, Adam, created good. Even the newborn child is created innocent before God until he willfully sins against God. Man is a slave to his sinful nature as a result of us all sinning in Adam.

God only permissively allows evil and sin when He has an ultimate good in mind for it's end result.

This is where I believe people like Calvin stopped and were content not to go beyond scripture. Assuming the best based on what we do know of God's nature and character revealed in scripture. In my mind, this is as far as scripture will allow us to go.
 
JM wrote:

Actually, it’s really sad we have only 2 votes, the poll is based upon the accepted historical orthodox Christian positions held by the Church. The idea that “labels†do not exist for your theological position is insincere.

A couple of reasons for not voting exist:
1/ you don’t know what you believe and are working thru it [God be with you],
2/ you deny the label but still fit the description [in which case you’re not being honest],
3/ you haven’t studied and thought about what you believe [study to shew thyself approved] or
4/ you can’t vote because you deny the historically accepted positions of the Christian Church and in which case you’re either a heretic or extremely confused.


As an alternative framework consider the following:

Kingdom of God
1. Christian
2. Jew or Gentile
3. spiritual or carnal
4. assembly
5. doctrine and practice

I strive to retain certain distinctions (the most contested is probably Jew /gentile) yet retain what can be derived from a plain reading of scripture. Historically accepted positions depend more on which side of the fence your on despite many agreeing, in theory at least, that there is 'one Lord, one faith, one hope and one doctrine'.

In response to the 4 points:
1. Not by choice but necessity: 'in fear and trembling'
2. to retain 'first order loyalty'
3. to mediate on the word and pray more
4. can't vote because: 'I slid beyond the help of men'.

There are enemies among friends and friends among enemies until the end of the age.

blessings: stranger
 
JM said:
... We can’t assume the Reformers hated the Anabaptist simply because they re-baptized adults, there is a whole slew of reason why they were detested. Heretical teaching leads the soul into hell fire was the final reasoning. It’s easy to look back thru the portal of time and judge Luther and Calvin.

Vic, have you ever wondered if Calvin thought he had a Biblical reason for a Church and state relationship?

Peace,

~JM~

PS: For the record, the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Calvinists condemned Servetus and Calvin was considered to “lenient†for having him decapitated rather then burned to death as the others would have done.
Sorry Jason, if came across as judgemental. I'm just trying to bring to light some history that has largely been ignored.

I'm sure Calvin thought he had Biblical reasons, just as the Muslims do in their Sharia. But when I look at a total merge of
"church" and state, I see the havoc it creates. I'm not a big fan of total seperation, but some is needed. Jefferson made that clear to the Baptist church in Conn.

Calvin was considered to “lenient†for having him decapitated rather then burned to death as the others would have done.
Calvin only suggested he be decapitated. The fact is, Servetus was burned to death.

Back on topic, I opt for a "pan" theology. Believe that Christ died and conquered death for our sins, repent and God will make sure the rest "pans" out. I will call it... "Panism". :)
 
... which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The question isn’t a philosophical one brother, just a plain ol’ question that you can answer from Scripture. RJS already posted one, I quoted another.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We were chosen before the decree to create for we are chosen before the foundation of the world.

Clearly, the message by Augustine is not of double predestination when we consider the whole context, but just the opposite.

If you study the conclusions of Dort and the history surrounding those conclusions, you’ll see that both Augustine and Calvin wrote for both double and single predestination.

quoting John Calvin, Institutio christianae religionis II (Geneva, 1559).

And

I think that you may be reading into this statement more than what is being said.

As I continue to study Calvin’s Institutes I see he often dissects God’s will into two, one is revealed the other is secret, so I don’t think I’m reading into Calvin, but I believe I’m placing one quote into the context of the already established grid he uses. I also have a huge list of quotation where Calvin states that Christ died to satisfy the sins of the whole world. Does this mean he’s Arminian? It’s the theological context in which he is writing, secret vs. revealed.

This is where I believe people like Calvin stopped and were content not to go beyond scripture.

We must remember that it was Beza who pressed forward with Calvin’s theology. What may shock those who read about Calvin is that Calvin wrote more on prayer and communion with God then any other topic.

Sorry Jason, if came across as judgemental. I'm just trying to bring to light some history that has largely been ignored.

I'm sure Calvin thought he had Biblical reasons, just as the Muslims do in their Sharia. But when I look at a total merge of
"church" and state, I see the havoc it creates. I'm not a big fan of total seperation, but some is needed. Jefferson made that clear to the Baptist church in Conn.

No prob. It’s important to judge doctrine. We have to remember that Calvin lived in a time of Kings and Queens, he continued the OT pattern of allowing Kings and Queens to have a say in the Church as the Bible does teach that governments are given power by God. It’s not a matter of liking or disliking, but what the word of God has to say. I’m not in support of theonomy, but I have to ask this question, does God want us to be Christian in total, or in part? If we are elected to a government office, are we to forget we’re Christian? The individualism of the North America would say yes, but we as Christians are called to live out our faith so others may see it.

Calvin only suggested he be decapitated. The fact is, Servetus was burned to death.

I guess that shows up Calvin wasn’t the pope of Geneva.

Back on topic, I opt for a "pan" theology. Believe that Christ died and conquered death for our sins, repent and God will make sure the rest "pans" out. I will call it... "Panism".

The theology of Peter Pan is a false theological view point Vic.







































Kidding.

~JM~
 
JM said:
The theology of Peter Pan is a false theological view point Vic.
But just as the Roman Catholic Institution, they had to point their entire false belief system on Peter in order to legitimize their beliefs!
 
JM said:
Quote Vic
Calvin only suggested he be decapitated. The fact is, Servetus was burned to death.



I guess that shows up Calvin wasn’t the pope of Geneva.
You do realize that his suggestion for decapitation was after the fact.

The theology of Peter Pan is a false theological view point Vic.

Kidding.

~JM~
You got me there. If only my panism was so simple. :wink:

Solo said:
But just as the Roman Catholic Institution, they had to point their entire false belief system on Peter in order to legitimize their beliefs!
:lol:
 
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