Original Sin

[st_worm2]

6 min 35 sec

Original Sin | Ligonier Ministries

Sin isn’t just what we do; it’s who we are. On this episode of Simply Put, Barry Cooper defines the term “original sin” and explains how it became our natural state.

www.ligonier.org

 

[hawkman]

Clip from link .

But that of course is not what theologians mean when they talk about “original sin”. What they’re referring to is the idea that because the entire human race is descended from one man, a man who rebelled against God, we have all inherited his sinful nature - and his guilt. We are all of us—to use a biblical phrase—“in Adam.”

Where did Adam get his "sinful nature " ?

 

[st_worm2]

Clip from link .

But that of course is not what theologians mean when they talk about “original sin”. What they’re referring to is the idea that because the entire human race is descended from one man, a man who rebelled against God, we have all inherited his sinful nature - and his guilt. We are all of us—to use a biblical phrase—“in Adam.”

Where did Adam get his "sinful nature " ?

Hi Hawkman, that is an excellent question. Thank you for pointing it out.

Once fallen, he and our first mother became something that they had never been before, sinners, but that's not how God created them (so saying that they had a sinful "nature" wouldn't be true, unless there is another sense that a person can be something, "by nature", without being created, born, OR born again that way ).

Since I've never said that about Adam and Eve personally, I'll need to ask the speaker (Barry Cooper) why he did. I'll be interested to hear what he has to say and I'll let you know what I find out.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - apparently I also need to pay a little closer attention to what I'm listening to, even (or perhaps especially) when the topic is very familiar to me.

 

[st_worm2]

Where did Adam get his "sinful nature " ?

Hello Hawkman, from someone at "Ask Ligonier", here is the answer to your question.

That's an excellent question, and it's one that has been asked by many throughout the history of the church. The term "sinful nature" is often used to describe the condition of humanity after the fall of Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve sinned, they did indeed bring about a change in their nature - a corruption that has been passed down to all their descendants. However, it's important to clarify that Adam and Eve were not created with a sinful nature. They were created good, in the image of God, but with the capacity to choose good or evil. When they chose to disobey God, their nature was marred by sin, and that fallen nature is inherited by their descendants.​

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You may find this resource helpful:​

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https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/new-adam​

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Ask Ligonier | Ligonier Ministries​

I still believe that if we are something "by nature" it means that we were created or born that way (or born again that way), but I'm going to take the time to think through all of it again. If I come up with a different thought as a result, I'll run it by you.

What do you think?

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - just to be clear, this answer did not come from the Simply Put podcast pastor, Barry Cooper, though I'm certain that he would concur with the answer, just FYI.

 

[hawkman]

Thanks for getting a reply for me .

When they chose to disobey God, their nature was marred by sin, and that fallen nature is inherited by their descendants.

So do you think it is a genetic inherited problem ? When you say "inherited" that is where my mind goes .
You would think as serious is this "sin nature" you would certainly think God would have told Adam and Eve that all their descendants would have it . Genesis chapter 3 would have been the perfect place for this info about "sin nature " but I can't find it , can you ?

 

[LeviR]

Where did Adam get his "sinful nature " ?

Adam got his sinful nature by being the natural man made from the earth.

39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind [f]of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40There are also [g]celestial bodies and [h]terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for onestar differs from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam becamea life-giving spirit.

46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47The first man was of the earth, madehttps://biblehub.com/nkjv/1_corinthians/15.htm#footnotes of dust; the second Man is [j]the Lord from heaven. 48As was the [k]man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we[l] shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Cor 15:39-49

 

[hawkman]

Adam got his sinful nature by being the natural man made from the earth.

That presents a problem for you , Jesus was also flesh of the earth , now you have Jesus with a sinful nature . Jesus had an earthly mother and earthly grandfathers .

 

[LeviR]

That presents a problem for you , Jesus was also flesh of the earth , now you have Jesus with a sinful nature . Jesus had an earthly mother and earthly grandfathers .

It creates no problem for me. I never said Jesus did not have a sinful nature. I do in fact agree he did.
that’s why I was able to answer your first question.

 

[hawkman]

It creates no problem for me. I never said Jesus did not have a sinful nature. I do in fact agree he did.
that’s why I was able to answer your first question.

We are polar opposites on "sin nature" . I say no one has ever had a "sin nature" and you say everyone including Jesus has a sin nature .

We all have a selfish human nature and the reason is so that mankind will live on . If a baby was not selfish at the beginning they would not make it in a lot of cases . When we become Christians we die to self .

Adam got his sinful nature by being the natural man made from the earth.

Are you saying the sin was in the earth , in the dirt ?

 

[LeviR]

We all have a selfish human nature and the reason is so that mankind will live on . If a baby was not selfish at the beginning they would not make it in a lot of cases . When we become Christians we die to self .

What do you mean “we die to self”?

if self is human nature as the reason mankind lives on, then to die to self would be the reason mankind will not live on.

To die to self means we put to death the deeds of the flesh whereby sin results.

 

[LeviR]

Are you saying the sin was in the earth , in the dirt ?

No, sin is the transgression of the law of God. Dirt does not transgress the law of God.
The man Adam, who is flesh, made from the ground, is he who transgressed the law of God.
The reason Adam transgressed the law of God is because the law is made weak by the flesh of man. Adam simply desired the fruit over the law of God. So, we all die because we are all like him.

 

[hawkman]

What do you mean “we die to self”?

if self is human nature as the reason mankind lives on, then to die to self would be the reason mankind will not live on.

The selfish human nature we are born with can be overcome if we become born again . When we are a baby we need the selfish nature to survive as a human .

"Die to self " It is not our sinful flesh that lives on but it is Christ (Holy Spirit) now living in us as Christians .

 

[electedbyHim]

We are polar opposites on "sin nature" . I say no one has ever had a "sin nature" and you say everyone including Jesus has a sin nature .

We all have a selfish human nature and the reason is so that mankind will live on . If a baby was not selfish at the beginning they would not make it in a lot of cases . When we become Christians we die to self .

Are you saying the sin was in the earth , in the dirt ?

Do you believe humans are born without sin?

 

[hawkman]

Do you believe humans are born without sin?

Sure do .

If you believe that humans are born with sin tell me where the sin is located at and who put it there ?

 

[electedbyHim]

Sure do .

If you believe that humans are born with sin tell me where the sin is located at and who put it there ?

I believe the Bible teaches that we are born with a sin nature that we have recieved through Adam.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned


You mentioned humans are born with a selfish nature. Selfishness is sin, is it not?

I was not looking to debate because I am firm in my beliefs. However I am curious as to where you think sin in man came from. how did he get it?

 

[LeviR]

Knowledge can only be acquired through the process of reasoning!

If the Bible can not be understood through the process of reasoning it is worthless.

 

[LeviR]

For those who think Jesus did not benefit from his own sacrifice, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[hawkman]

Sorry electedbyhim I did not get back to this sooner .

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

That verse always struck me as odd in what it is saying until I read this article ( that I will give you a link to) out loud to my wife and the Holy Spirit let me know what the truth was .
Read the article out loud electedbyhim and see what happens .

Nitzevet, Mother of David - The bold voice of silence

He was Israel’s mightiest warrior, revered by friend and foe; yet for the first 28 years of his life he was a lowly outcast . . . The secret story behind the mysterious circumstances of King David’s birth.

www.chabad.org

 

[st_worm2]

I never said Jesus did not have a sinful nature. I do in fact agree he did.

Hello Levi, I'm not sure who you are agreeing with about that ? (as I literally know of no one who does, nor of any church, not even at the farthest reaches of the pale of Christian orthodoxy). That said, why do 'you' believe this about Him? What led you to this conclusion, IOW? Thanks ?

Also, while we are on the topic (and just for clarity's sake), since the Lord Jesus is "the very image of the invisible God" .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15, do you also believe that God the Father has a sinful nature too ? (if not, why not?)

For those who think Jesus did not benefit from his own sacrifice, you are sadly mistaken.

There are several reasons why neither the Bible, nor the entirety of historic Christianity has ever agreed with you about that either. Even the demons knew both who He was and what He was. For instance,

Luke 4​

33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, ​

34 “Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the ~Holy~ One of God!”​

Here are just a few more for good measure

2 Corinthians 5​

21 He made ~Him who knew no sin~ to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. ​

​

Hebrews 4​

15 We do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet ~without sin~. ​

​

Hebrews 7​

26 It was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, ~separated from sinners~ and exalted above the heavens.​

​

1 Peter 2​

21 You have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, ​

22 WHO ~COMMITTED NO SIN~, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; ​

23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously.​

1 John 3​

5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. ​

If the Lord Jesus is not the Spotless Lamb of God that the Bible tells us that He is, but is instead, a sinner (like we are), then His death on the Cross would not have been capable of saving Him or us!!

God bless you!!

--David

1 Peter 1​

18 You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, ​

19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb ~unblemished and spotless~, the blood of Christ.​

 

[LeviR]

Hello Levi, I'm not sure who you are agreeing with about that ? (as I literally know of no one who does, nor of any church, not even at the farthest reaches of the pale of Christian orthodoxy). That said, why do 'you' believe this about Him? What led you to this conclusion, IOW? Thanks ?

Also, while we are on the topic (and just for clarity's sake), since the Lord Jesus is "the very image of the invisible God" .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15, do you also believe that God the Father has a sinful nature too ? (if not, why not?)


There are several reasons why neither the Bible, nor the entirety of historic Christianity has ever agreed with you about that either. Even the demons knew both who He was and what He was. For instance,

Luke 4​

33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, ​

34 “Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the ~Holy~ One of God!”​

Here are just a few more for good measure

2 Corinthians 5​

21 He made ~Him who knew no sin~ to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. ​

​

Hebrews 4​

15 We do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet ~without sin~. ​

​

Hebrews 7​

26 It was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, ~separated from sinners~ and exalted above the heavens.​

​

1 Peter 2​

21 You have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, ​

22 WHO ~COMMITTED NO SIN~, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; ​

23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously.​

1 John 3​

5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. ​

If the Lord Jesus is not the Spotless Lamb of God that the Bible tells us that He is, but is instead, a sinner (like we are), then His death on the Cross would not have been capable of saving Him or us!!

God bless you!!

--David

1 Peter 1​

18 You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, ​

19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb ~unblemished and spotless~, the blood of Christ.​

I did not say he personally sinned. I said his flesh was sinful flesh.

Man’s flesh is sinful flesh. A man who does not have sinful flesh is not man but something else. Jesus partook of the same blood and flesh as all the rest of mankind.
In answer to the scripture you posted, I’ll agree with them in saying Jesus did not personally commit any sin.

The verse you posted from Hebrews 7 speaks of Christ after his resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven.

Can you find any scripture that says his flesh was a different kind of flesh than that of the rest of mankind?