Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints

[cj]

So let's continue.....

Furthermore, CJ claims,

"Do you not know that the blood has covered all possible defilement OC?"

No, I don't know that, nor does the New Testament know that.......

And so, without my having to start it, OC is taking the lead by introducing us to the matter of "the person of a man. In particular, the unregenerated soul of a man."

Or as OC rightfully titles it....

defilement of self

Mark 7:15, "There is nothing outside of a man which entering into him can defile him, but the things coming out of a man are the things which defile a man."

Titus 1:10-11, "For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who overthrow whole households, teaching things for the sake of base gain, which they ought not to do."

Notice how what is said in Mark 7:15 is opened up (further revealed to us) in Titus 1:10-11.

But there is more to understanding this matter....

1 Timothy 1:5-7, "But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and out of a good conscience and out of unfeigned faith; From which things some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking, desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither the things that they say, nor concerning what they confidently affirm."

See, if "defilment" (corruption) is already in a person, which has to be the case in order that this person speaks something that defiles himself, the root of the problem is not dealt with by a declaration of "I will", but rather such a declaration only serve more to release the defilement within this person.

If a person knows he is speaking something that defiles him, then he should also know that something defiling is in him, as this is the cause of the defilement being spoken. And if so, what needs to be done first is the inward defilement must be dealt with. This foalk is why God leads us to repent first, for in repenting we are effectively dealing with the defilement inside.

From within himself.

Saints, the first indication of a repentant person is humility, and this is how we may come to know the heart's condition of another.

Notice the word "self" that OC uses. This "self" is wickedness in God's eyes. In fact it is the very presence of this "self" that is what defiles every men.

Above I said that OC rightfully titled this matter "defilement of self", but it was a little tongue-in-cheek of me, as what is right to say is the self is what defiles a man.

Lets read a relevant Proverb.....

Proverbs 16:27, "A worthless man digs up evil, And on his lips there is a scorching fire."

"digs up evil..." but from where does he dig it up this evil?

And just in case we don't believe that we have evil within us, lets read the Lord's words on this matter....

Mark 7:21-23, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil reasonings, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, foolishness. All these wicked things proceed from within and defile the man."

Any doubts?

And how is this evil released by us?

James says it well......

James  3 : 6, "And the tongue is a fire; the very world of unrighteousness, the tongue is set among our members as that which contaminates the whole body and sets on fire the course of life and is set on fire by Gehenna."

Are we really aware that in our mouth is a possible representative of Hell?

And more, take a close look at what Jesus says is in each of us..... evil reasonings, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, foolishness,....

Hell anyone?

How many believer know that "hell" dwells right within us?


Lord Jesus, how much we need you to open our eyes to the reality of our fallen condition.


Not, "I will not defile...."

But rather, quietly and in an inward manner as if hidden in one's closet, "Lord, be merciful and save me, a sinner."

More to follow...

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Continued from above...

defilement of the Temple of God (bodies)

No OC, not our bodies, but the church of God.

1 Cor 3:17, "If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you."

Destroys, meaning ruins, corrupts, defiles, mars.

To destroy the temple of God is to build with the worthless materials of wood, grass, and stubble, as described in v. 12. This refers to certain Jewish believers who attempted to build the church with elements of Judaism, and to certain Greek believers who endeavored to bring philosophical elements into the building. All this tended to corrupt, ruin, defile, and mar the temple of God, that is, to destroy it. Using any doctrine that differs from the fundamental teachings of the apostles (Acts 2:42) or any ways and efforts that contradict God's nature, Christ's redemptive work, and the Spirit's transforming work is to corrupt, ruin, defile, mar, and destroy the church of God.

defilement of marriage bed

Hebrews 13:4, "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and the bed undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge."

In the church life (which is for the building of the body), contact between brothers and sisters is unavoidable. Hence, to be protected from falling into defilement, we must hold marriage in honor and not behave loosely. This is a matter that seriously affects our birthright in God's economy. Reuben lost the birthright because of his defilement (Gen. 49:3-4; 1 Chron. 5:1), and Joseph received it because of his purity (1 Chron. 5:1; Gen. 39:7-12). God will judge fornicators and adulterers, and the church too must judge them (1 Cor. 5:1-2, 11-13).

Nothing damages the saints and the church life (the building of the body) as much as this defilement.

defilement of spirit

James 1:27, "This is pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."

Meaning, not to be worldly, not to be stained by worldliness.

This too is a part of James's God-fearing view of practical Christian perfection. To visit orphans and widows is to act according to God's loving heart, a characteristic of perfection on the positive side, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world is to be separated from the world according to God's holy nature, a characteristic of perfection on the negative side.

The Greek word translated "world" is used for different things, as follows.....

In Matt. 25:34; John 17:5; Acts 17:24; Eph. 1:4; and Rev. 13:8, it denotes the material universe as a system created by God. In John 1:29; 3:16; and Rom. 5:12, it denotes the fallen human race, corrupted and usurped by Satan to be the components of his evil world system. In 1 Pet. 3:3 it denotes adorning, ornaments.

Here, as in John 15:19; 17:14; and 1 John 2:15 it denotes an order, a set form, an orderly arrangement, hence, an ordered system (set up by Satan, the adversary of God), not the earth.

God created man to live on the earth for the fulfillment of His purpose. But His enemy, Satan, in order to usurp the God-created man, formed an anti-God world system on this earth by systematizing men with religion, culture, education, industry, commerce, entertainment, etc., through men's fallen nature, in their lusts, pleasures, and pursuits, and even in their indulgence in necessities for their living, such as food, clothing, housing, and transportation (John 12).

The whole of such a satanic system lies in the evil one (1 John 5:19). Not loving such a world is the ground for overcoming the evil one. Loving it just a little gives the evil one the ground to defeat and occupy us.

What James is speaking of in his epistle is the matter of our outward involvement with the things of the environment in which we live.

To better understand this, we should remember that James was coming from a Jewish background and still held to some Judaistic concepts regarding how a believer should outwardly serve God.

This is very much the same as what is seen in religions today, an emphasis put on the outward appearance. Which in itself is not wrong, but at the expense of the grounding we gain from Paul's ministry concerning the inward growth of God's life in us, this emphasis can, and has, evole to a point where it becomes the center/source of our walk effectively usurping Christ in us as the center/source of our walk.

And just in case anyone has doubts about whether or not James was speaking about outward things, and not inward things (spirit) as OC erroneously seems to think, lets read James' own words that about this....

James 4:4, "Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever determines to be a friend of the world is constituted an enemy of God."

James was most certainly speaking about outward things, in reference to our practical physical living.

Remember, that which is on the outside cannot enter in and defile a man. The principle is always what is on the inside and comes out is what defiles a man.

What the Lord is telling us, actually warning us about here in James is that if we are not careful with the outward things of the world, these outward things will be used by Satan to lure the inward evil we have within us out to the surface.

Don't worry so much about what you see, worry more about what you allow to take place in you as a response to what you see.

Finally,...

Amen. Finally is a good word isn't it?

.... I am now known by CJ as OC the "religionist."

No, just either the religionist or OC. But I do not remember saying OC the religionist.

Guilty as charged

I tell you, wherever he can find some sort of soapbox he'll jump right up on it.

That's funny.
But OC goes on to present what James says,

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world."

But what he did not present is what James first qualified the above speaking with...

"James  1:26, "If anyone thinks himself to be religious and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this one's religion is vain."

See, James was being very specific about the matter he was addressing, that being the matter of defilement coming from within a man.

Additionally, in Greek, religious (adjective) and religion (noun) refer to ceremonial service and worship to God (implying the fear of God). The adjective is used only in verse 26. The noun is used in a positive sense in both verses, in a negative sense in Col. 2:18 (for worship), and in a general sense in Acts 26:5.

So we should not get all mushy about being religious, and thinking its a great thing,.... cause it ain't really so. A person's religious activity must be submitted to a person's inward life, which is in the regenerated spirit of a man. If not, than a person's religious activity will only express the evil that is within a man's self.

James's writing concerning God's New Testament economy is not as striking as Paul's, Peter's, and John's. Paul focuses on Christ living and being formed in us (Gal. 2:20; 4:19) and Christ being magnified in us and lived out of us (Phil. 1:20-21) that we as the church, His Body, may become His fullness, His expression (Eph. 1:22-23). Peter stresses the fact that God regenerated us through the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 1:3), making us partakers of His divine nature, that we may live a life of godliness (2 Pet. 1:3-7) and be built up as a spiritual house to express His virtues (1 Pet. 2:5, 9). John emphasizes the eternal life, given to us for our fellowship with the Triune God (1 John 1:2-3), and the divine birth, which brings into us the divine life as the divine seed that we may live out a life that is like God (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:17) and be the church, a lampstand, which bears the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 1:9, 11-12) and which will consummate in the New Jerusalem for God's expression unto eternity (Rev. 21:2-3, 10-11).

Of the matters that are characteristic of the New Testament, James stresses only God's begetting of us (v. 18), the perfect law of freedom (v. 25), the indwelling Spirit (4:5), and a minor aspect of the church (5:14). He does not speak of Christ as our life or of the church as the expression of Christ, the two most outstanding and dispensational characteristics of the New Testament.

This Epistle shows that James must have been very religious. It might have been because of this and his practical Christian perfection that he was reputed to be, along with Peter and John, a pillar, even the first, in the church at Jerusalem (Gal. 2:9). However, he was not strong in the revelation of God's New Testament economy in Christ but was still under the influence of the background of the old Judaic religion, the primary elements of which were to worship God by ceremonies and to live a life in the fear of God. This is proved by the words in Acts 21:20-24 and in 2:2-11 of this Epistle. Because his spiritual sight was covered by Judaism, he could not fully enter into the revelation of God's New Testament economy as Paul, Peter, and John were able to do.

May the Lord my God establish and keep me in pure religion, according to His mercy

Wonderful.

And He will OC, I absolutely believe He will.

Yet just as absolutely, I also believe that the visible issue of that which He establishes will not look anything like the monstrosity we see when we are confronted by the apostate religious institutions, such as that to which you hold.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Luke 6:43-46
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

[quote="Orthodox Christian":8ce93]In keeping with posting etiquette, I will summarize, rather than respond point by point:

response

You go girl!

Matthew 12:36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

These words can speak for themselves without my commentary.[/quote:8ce93]

Ooooohhhhhhhhh,....... someone's clothes got a little over-starched it seems.

Lighten up, oh stiffed-backed one.


And by the way,..... in reality there is only one Man in the whole universe,.... and He's marrying a corporate bride.

So, don't get your knickers all in a twist..... girlfriend.

In love,'cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I'm just at a loss as to how this chauvinistic insulting portrayed as playful banter edifies anyone.

 

[cj]

I'm just at a loss as to how this chauvinistic insulting portrayed as playful banter edifies anyone.

"chauvinistic insulting"....... saying "You go girl" is "chauvinistic insulting"?

Ohhh OC,.... just more whining on your part, with the motive to have me reprimanded in some way.


In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

I'm just at a loss as to how this chauvinistic insulting portrayed as playful banter edifies anyone.

I'm at a loss here too. Besides, you call yourself James, but hcj refers to you as a female. Now I'm really confused. :-?

Now, let's please stop the petty bantering and get back on track or else another topic I will lock. (geesh, I'm starting to soind like Yoda - : )

 

[Vic C.]

I'm just at a loss as to how this chauvinistic insulting portrayed as playful banter edifies anyone.

I'm at a loss here too. Besides, you call yourself James, but cj refers to you as a female. Now I'm really confused. :-?

Now, let's please stop the petty bantering and get back on track or else another topic I will lock. (geesh, I'm starting to sound like Yoda - : )

 

[Steve]

I would think that because of the constant b*******ss, that the person is a female. :-D

 

[Steve]

I'm just at a loss as to how this chauvinistic insulting portrayed as playful banter edifies anyone.

"chauvinistic insulting"....... saying "You go girl" is "chauvinistic insulting"?

Ohhh OC,.... just more whining on your part, with the motive to have me reprimanded in some way.


In love,
cj

Personally, I think it's a hoot. :-D

 

[Vic C.]

I would think that because of the constant b*******ss, that the person is a female. :-D

Be nice, we have enough problems already. :-?

 

[Steve]

Oy. I'm sorry, Vic. : Guess I couldn't resist. you know how I am.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Lord have mercy

 

[stovebolts]

"b*******ss,'

I"m feeling pretty stupid right now... someone want to send me a translation :-? I know thta I'm a bad sPalear, but I cn't figure what starts with the letter b, ends with 2 ss's and has 10 characters... :wink:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Lord have mercy

 

[stovebolts]

Praise the Lord!

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Lord have mercy

 

[stovebolts]

James, for the attacks that you have taken, you stand tall and Christ rings loudly from your posts.

God Bless you my Brother in Christ.
Jeff

 

[Vic C.]

Jeff, since James was gracious enough to edit hos posts, I felt it necessary to edit yours; since it contained a quote from James.

Peace,
Vic