Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints

[Steve]

Yeah; there is an inordinate amount of time spent in the Orthodox Church in praying for the dead. Sometimes the Panikhida(service for the dead) will happen every Sunday after Liturgy and go for about an hour.

The Greeks have a custom I find rather unscriptural: they'll bake a cake, usually a round, tall one like a bunt, and stick a candle on it, which is lighted, on the maly prestol, or little altar, in the nave. Then the service for the dead begins, and incense is swung before the cake, etc.

Reminds me of that verse in the OT about offering cakes to the queen of heaven......I always found it to be very paganistic.

Then, you have the little metal fetishes representing various body parts, made of some type of silver or gold alloy, rested on the icons---the individual may have a foot problem, so they buy a little metal foot, and put it up onto the icon of the saint one is praying to.

I always wondered what the metal thing would look like for someone who had prostate problems................... :P

 

[Steve]

Growing up Roman, becoming Orthodox, and leaving both, I do understand their reasoning for praying to saints and the Blessed Mother.

Personally I pray to the Father in Jesus' Name ONLY. I believe that is the Scriptural procedure and directive for prayer.

I used to pray to the saints here and there(never really got into it), and was a big fan and devotee of the Blessed Mother.

But, I don't need that anymore.

Jesus is enough for me. Period. And guess what. If you disagree with what I just said, then jesus is NOT enough for you.

Can i get an 'Amen'?

 

[JM]

Steve, great posts. :-D :

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Yeah; there is an inordinate amount of time spent in the Orthodox Church in praying for the dead. Sometimes the Panikhida(service for the dead) will happen every Sunday after Liturgy and go for about an hour.

Memorial services are supposed to take place on Saturday, and never on the day of resurrection. But in the oeconomia of the American Church, the Trisagion or Evlogataria will be chanted.
Each takes between 3-7 minutes. I know, because I chant them.

The Greeks have a custom I find rather unscriptural: they'll bake a cake, usually a round, tall one like a bunt, and stick a candle on it, which is lighted, on the maly prestol, or little altar, in the nave. Then the service for the dead begins, and incense is swung before the cake, etc.

Kolyva (baked wheat) is what is used in memorial services in Greek services. The families prepare these to commemorate their family members who have fallen asleep. I'm not sure how praying for and remembering the dear departed is anything but in keeping with true Christian faith, for even the memorial services are resurrectional in nature.

Reminds me of that verse in the OT about offering cakes to the queen of heaven......I always found it to be very paganistic.

Then, you have the little metal fetishes representing various body parts, made of some type of silver or gold alloy, rested on the icons---the individual may have a foot problem, so they buy a little metal foot, and put it up onto the icon of the saint one is praying to.

You have had some unique experiences in the Orthodox world, Steve- I have never seen either practice- though I have seen little prophoras with candles in them - at OCA parishes.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Yeah; there is an inordinate amount of time spent in the Orthodox Church in praying for the dead. Sometimes the Panikhida(service for the dead) will happen every Sunday after Liturgy and go for about an hour.

Memorial services are supposed to take place on Saturday, and never on the day of resurrection. But in the oeconomia of the American Church, the Trisagion or Evlogataria will be chanted.
Each takes between 3-7 minutes. I know, because I chant them.

The Greeks have a custom I find rather unscriptural: they'll bake a cake, usually a round, tall one like a bunt, and stick a candle on it, which is lighted, on the maly prestol, or little altar, in the nave. Then the service for the dead begins, and incense is swung before the cake, etc.

Kolyva (baked wheat) is what is used in memorial services in Greek services. The families prepare these to commemorate their family members who have fallen asleep. I'm not sure how praying for and remembering the dear departed is anything but in keeping with true Christian faith, for even the memorial services are resurrectional in nature.

Reminds me of that verse in the OT about offering cakes to the queen of heaven......I always found it to be very paganistic.

Then, you have the little metal fetishes representing various body parts, made of some type of silver or gold alloy, rested on the icons---the individual may have a foot problem, so they buy a little metal foot, and put it up onto the icon of the saint one is praying to.

You have had some unique experiences in the Orthodox world, Steve- I have never seen either practice- though I have seen little prophoras with candles in them - at OCA parishes.

My brother,

I agree with you in Christ. I have not seen these "little metal fetishes" in any of the American Orthodox Churches I have attended, so I must believe Steve is making some of this stuff up, a sign he is an imposter, a wolf in sheeps clothing perhaps?

Jason says,

Great post, Steve

Not.

I find this typical hypocrasy of the American Protestant Reformation's faith because we have hiways and streets lined with memorials and crosses for dead automobile drivers who found an untimely death from one end of this country to another. We hear all the time how these memorials should be removed and the families cry out in anguish that people would be dishonoring the dead. I have even seen people praying before these shrines to their dead oned one. Maybe they are praying vain prayers which beg God not to kill them like they did their loved one? Naw I think they are praying that God save thier loved one and have mercy on them.

Also, in America we are begining to rebuild the 911 site, holy ground many say. How many prayers for the dead have been uttered at this holy site is unknown but I would say many. What about the Katrina disaster? How many times have I heard, "pray for the victims"? Are we only to pray for those living victims and not the dead?

Again, how many prayers for dead soldiers are cast at God? We in America construct huge memorials, have high holy days for these men of honor, and pray to God for our selves and them in solemn services? Yet Catholic Christians are condemned for praying for their loved ones in a simple service in the Church? Is this the definition of hypocrasy? Is this not exactly what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for, placing a written law above the hearts of men in prayer to God? Placing burdens upon the hearts of men to heavy to carry? A mother cannot pray for her dead son? Please, God have mercy on the hypocrite that would refuse a mothers right to pray to God for him. Are not people that believe this type of hurtful thing and place this type of burden on a man the modern day version of a pharisee or a scribe?

Here in America we broad cast proudly a man say “I can feel Johnny now†or “Johnny can hear us†or “I know Johnny is looking down on us†or “Johnny is still with us and we will see him again†at funerals.

Do the ones that believe we cannot pray for our dead loved ones really believe telling them they are wrong and their loved one is dead, honors God? No caring person would do that in reality. Fact is if a person said that to the face of one praying for a loved one he might find himself on the end of a fist. Can you imagine a realistic event? It would cause a riot.

Only on the internet could someone be so callous and uncaring.

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psalms 116:15

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us for we know not what we do.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Orthodoxy]

This topic really strikes home for me. When I was 18, 30 years ago, my best friend died a horrible death in a car accident. He was thrown 150 feet into a concrete pillar and smashed his head. He did not die immediately, no he lived. His poor parents had to make a choice, have a son on a ventalator that was brain dead but otherwise in perfect condition or remove the machine and let him die.

God the prayers we cast before his death. The pain of these parents was visible and with great angulish these loving parents in prayer allowed their son to be taken by God. They in later days after the funeral asked me if he "believed" in Jesus Christ. I told them yes, of course he accepted Jesus. They were so thankful. I told them I would never stop praying for their son. To this day as an orthodox christian now I continue to pray for my dear friend. I even light a candle and place it before the Icon of the Mother of My Lord.

Are any of you willing to tell me face to face I am going to hell and apostate because I pray for my beloved friend that God will have mercy on him even that he would take my place in salvation if he is not "present with the Lord"?

I live in Colorado.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Oy gevalt.

Anyway...I was doing some meditation last evening, and I went back a few years into my childhood and adolecent days, and early 20's. I had to beg the Lord's forgiveness and repent for the sin of IDOLATRY. There was a time in my life that all of my prayers were directed to Mary. I LIVED for the Novena to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, and when I couldn't be at church in person for it, it was broadcast on the radio, and nobody better disturb me during that 30 minutes. I said the rosary daily, with its 53 Hail Marys vs 5 Our Fathers. Sometimes I even skipped school to go to the Miraculous Medal novenas on Monday or Tuesday.

I haven't seen it until very lately. I was a Mary WORSHIPPER. Jesus was somebody on the side. And no-one ever corrected me. I was also a statue-kisser. Geez, EVERYBODY in church was a statue-kisser, and the old ladies who couldn't reach the life sized crucifix(on wheels, yet!) would blow kisses at it.

How deeply embarrassed and repentant I was last nite- : -cuz I just now REALISED what I had been doing. It's deep- I WAS NEGLECTING THE FATHER, THE LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, MY CREATOR AND REDEEMER, and praying to a fellow mortal who could do nothing for me, and I was a MARIOLATER. And there were(and are) lots more of us!!!!!

How ashamed I was and am before God. :

What Orthodox Church did you kiss a statue?

53 Hail Marys vs 5 Our Fathers

Did this Orthodox Church recognize the Pope in Rome?

I would love to visit this Church, can you remember where it is?

Orthodoxy

 

[cj]

Personally I pray to the Father in Jesus' Name ONLY. I believe that is the Scriptural procedure and directive for prayer.

You know, in reality, to pray in our Lord's name is to be one with all the prays of the saints that have been heard, and are being heard, and even will be heard, by the Father. For the Father only receives the Son, and this Son is living.

A few months ago, as I was considering this matter of prayer before the Lord, I became very aware of how much of what I prayed for was simply according to the concepts of the old man.

It was at the time that I believe the Lord was taking me into a deeper revelation of Abraham's experience with God, in particular his experience on Mount Moriah.

Have you ever noticed that the scriptures say nothing regarding Abraham praying to God regarding this obviously disturbing and challenging task before him? Think about it, if there was ever a time for prayer you would think it was when you had just been instructed to kill your #1 son right? But nothing about Abraham praying to God for strength, endurance, finances, support of believers, signs, blessings, etc., etc.... Abraham just lowered his head and did what he was told.

Ever wondered how much of our "prayer" gets in the way of our hearing?


Part of the wickedness that is associated with the false doctrine of praying to the dead saints is that it can become yet another false altar in the lives of believers, another "I gotta do this first, before I can do that" thing. And once this happens, the Headship of Jesus goes out the window for the individual who has fallen prey to this false doctrine.

When God spoke to Abraham nothing got inbetween what God said and what Abraham did. What a wonderful example/pattern of obedience and faith. Surely Abraham must have "swallowed" deeply when God said what He did. Surely Abraham must have felt something deep down within the core of his being, but it was never allowed to become spoken words. I see this as being a level of belief and understanding that I know I fall way short of. And yet, if we supplement our prayer relationship with actions that are based on false doctrines, the level of belief and understanding that Abraham attained is a level that believers today will never attain.


It really is sad to see these things among the saints. To see some saints, to their detriment, hold to such lies and therefore have no way of attaining the fullness of the promise in this life. Even worse, to regress.


And yet, the weaker ones are necessary for he salvation of all, and so there is no judging or condemnation of the believer, although the false doctrine must be rejected absolutely.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

This topic really strikes home for me. When I was 18, 30 years ago, my best friend died a horrible death in a car accident. He was thrown 150 feet into a concrete pillar and smashed his head. He did not die immediately, no he lived. His poor parents had to make a choice, have a son on a ventalator that was brain dead but otherwise in perfect condition or remove the machine and let him die.

God the prayers we cast before his death. The pain of these parents was visible and with great angulish these loving parents in prayer allowed their son to be taken by God. They in later days after the funeral asked me if he "believed" in Jesus Christ. I told them yes, of course he accepted Jesus. They were so thankful. I told them I would never stop praying for their son. To this day as an orthodox christian now I continue to pray for my dear friend. I even light a candle and place it before the Icon of the Mother of My Lord.

Are any of you willing to tell me face to face I am going to hell and apostate because I pray for my beloved friend that God will have mercy on him even that he would take my place in salvation if he is not "present with the Lord"?

I live in Colorado.

Orthodoxy

Thank you my brother for sharing this.

With the Saints give rest, O Christ, to the soul of Your servant where there is no pain, nor sorrow, nor suffering, but life everlasting.

Prayers are timeless when they rise up to the One who is beyond time. Before there was a world, He heard our prayers. So, even if some of these people wish to argue that it is too late for these people because they're already gone, I say pray with fervor, for God is hearing it before there was a universe.

The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much- so let us not become slack in praying for one another, even as we are certain that your friend prays for us in the presence of the holy angels, and in the company of those who encompass us about.

Memory eternal

Blessings to you my brother
James

 

[Steve]

I'm NOT making a bloody thing up! :x

ST. NICHOLAS GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH. Metal fetishes of body parts placed up against the particular icon of choice!!!

panikhidas on Sundays after Liturgy. In my parish.


Making things up! BRRRRT! :P

 

[Steve]

Statue kissing was in the ROMAN Church. Not the Orthodox. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I do know of an Orthodox Church where they not only SOLD rosaries in the vestibule, but prayed the rosary as well. St. Jude's in Barberton, Ohio. This is a little church where an icon allegedly wept.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

As I've said, I've not seen the fetish practice. I'm not saying you made it up, but I think we are both well aware that this practice would be as normative for Orthodox Christians as Benny Hinn is normative for Pentecostals.

In other words, not.

I know that many urban parishes say the Panhikida is said every Sunday, due to the immense size of the parish and the accompanying tide of death. Panhikidas can be said on any day. My point remains that this is NOT in keeping with Orthodox sensibility regarding the day of Resurrection. Instead, it is a uniquely American practice.

A much more common approach is to chant Trisagion or the funeral Evlogetaria (blessings) on the event of someone in the parish falling asleep in the Lord.

Are there Orthodox Christians who have prayed Rosary? I'm sure. The question was "in what Orthodox church do you see statues?"
The answer is you will not because three dimensional images are not in keeping with the canons of the Seventh Ecumenical council.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Statue kissing was in the ROMAN Church. Not the Orthodox. Please don't put words in my mouth

Orthodox don't kiss statues, they kiss icons. Vive le difference

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Statue kissing was in the ROMAN Church. Not the Orthodox. Please don't put words in my mouth

Orthodox don't kiss statues, they kiss icons. Vive le difference

Orthodox kiss a lot of things- each other's cheeks, hands, icons, the cross, the chalice. It is the kiss of peace and a kiss of reverence.

...unlike the contemporary American postmodern man, who has kiss marks all over his own bathroom mirror.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Statue kissing was in the ROMAN Church. Not the Orthodox. Please don't put words in my mouth

Orthodox don't kiss statues, they kiss icons. Vive le difference

Orthodox kiss a lot of things- each other's cheeks, hands, icons, the cross, the chalice. It is the kiss of peace and a kiss of reverence.

...unlike the contemporary American postmodern man, who has kiss marks all over his own bathroom mirror.

I kiss my wife and she is made in the image and likeness of God. I also kiss my mom and dad, kids , brothers, etc.

I see alot of derrier kissing in the protestant reformation along with alot of stroking of the flesh.

Hypocrasy is rampant in the protestant reformation. This just brings it into the light.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Orthodoxy]

Statue kissing was in the ROMAN Church. Not the Orthodox. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I do know of an Orthodox Church where they not only SOLD rosaries in the vestibule, but prayed the rosary as well. St. Jude's in Barberton, Ohio. This is a little church where an icon allegedly wept.

Steve,

Read your own post. Steve Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:06 am being you are posting in the Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints thread then I could only assume you were talking about an orthodox Church since you did not specify it was Roman Catholic. One should beware of the thread they are posting upon before they cast a net over the orthodox trying to entrap them.

There are many "orthodox" churches that accept the pope and recite the rosery. Western Rite I believe.

Anyway, who placed you in charge of judging others form of worship?

Is this not the hinge pin of your complaint, you dont like others worshipping God in a manner that is different than yours?

Does your mom know you condemn her and her mother for how they worship God?

Orthodoxy

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The question was "in what Orthodox church do you see statues?"
The answer is you will not because three dimensional images are not in keeping with the canons of the Seventh Ecumenical council.

What is the reasoning behind this? If you're going to reverence images, why not make them as realistic as possible? If the saints these images represent were 3-dimensional, why not 3-dimensional images of them?

 

[Steve]

Statue kissing was in the ROMAN Church. Not the Orthodox. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I do know of an Orthodox Church where they not only SOLD rosaries in the vestibule, but prayed the rosary as well. St. Jude's in Barberton, Ohio. This is a little church where an icon allegedly wept.

Steve,


Anyway, who placed you in charge of judging others form of worship?

Is this not the hinge pin of your complaint, you dont like others worshipping God in a manner that is different than yours?

Does your mom know you condemn her and her mother for how they worship God?

Orthodoxy

Oh, puh-leeeeze!!!!! :o You can be as Low Church as you want, or as High Church. I couldn't give a bloody hoot. Stop being so accusatory.

Typical Orthodox.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Stop being so accusatory.

Typical Orthodox.

There's a subtle irony working in your response here, perhaps I'm the only one that perceives it.

Now, let's try on a few of these typologies:
Typical Jew
Typical Goyim
Typical Woman
Typical Man
Typical Mexican
Typical White guy
Typical Fundie
Typical Liberal

Now, how much can we glean from these generalizations?
Only that the person using them has surrendered the element of reason, and has commenced an attack.

We all stand guilty of this, myself included.

Thanks for demonstrating how foolish it seems, and is when I do so.
James

 

[Orthodoxy]

cj,

Ever wondered how much of our "prayer" gets in the way of our hearing?

No questions the voice in our brain over rides the voice of God. This is why the Publican in his prayer for mercy went away justified and the Pharisitical prayer is condemned.

Part of the wickedness that is associated with the false doctrine of praying to the dead saints is that it can become yet another false altar in the lives of believers, another "I gotta do this first, before I can do that" thing. And once this happens, the Headship of Jesus goes out the window for the individual who has fallen prey to this false doctrine.

Here again your God is a god of the dead. Are the saints physically, soulically and spiritually dead? Does the spirit of man ever really "die"? Did God create the spirit of a man eternally dead or alive?

Do you not take Jesus at His words when He told the Church to pray "Our Father" not "My Father". I believe this is a community prayer. Where did Jesus tell any one individual "where YOU gather ask for anything"? No Jesus said where 2 or more members of the Church gather. Thus the prayer of the protestant "in Jesus name" by individuals violates Jesus instructions to have "two or more". Here again the Publicans prayer is the only one showing a justified man praying for himself. That is the only prayer Jesus instructed was valid for the individual.

Are we going to take Jesus at His word or not?

Where did Jesus say "pray how every feels good to you"?

To reiterate:

Jesus's approved prayer for the individual was only "God be merciful to me a sinner".

The approved prayer by the whole Church body is to be in this manner: "Our Father".....

No prayer is made by individuals that says "in Jesus name give me this".

Orthodoxy