OSAS discussion without using scripture

[FreeGrace]

People are not stupid, even though many in the church like to condescend to others 'less enlightened' than them by attempting to show them that their spiritual revelation causes them to be able to understand plain words of scripture in some other way than what the plain words say.

Seems you fail to understand what "plain words" mean. You and others have taken words that don't say or mean salvation and assumed they do mean salvation.

I have repented of that arrogant foolishness and now want to help humble seekers of God learn and apply plain words of scripture, not drive them away by making them feel stupid and inferior, and not privileged nor enlightened enough because they can't understand what the plain words of scripture really mean.

Right. "what the plain words REALLY mean". That's the problem with your view. There is not any verse that plainly says that one can lose salvation, or eternal life. Yet, you believe that one can. Why?

You gotta do better than this. You might as well just stick your tongue out at me and call me a poopie face .

You mean that being "in serious error" equals being a "poopie face"???? I didn't know that. lol But, this continues to be your problem. You assign meanings to words that they do NOT mean. Again, your view is NOT plainly SAID in Scripture.

I'm looking for mature, intelligent discussion. That means explaining why you think what you do in a calm, intelligent rebuttal, not just saying things like, "you're wrong" and not explaining why you think that.

I've done that repeatedly, yet my points aren't even discussed. All I get back is regurgitation of your view. How "mature" or "intelligent" is that?

You cannot support your idea that our loving Heavenly Father will toss His own children into the lake of fire.

To find such support, you must find verses that plainly SAY that God removes eternal life, removes the Holy Spirit, and will throw in children into the lake of fire for disobedience. There aren't any.

 

[FreeGrace]

Chris's death is why there is no more MOSAIC sacrifice for sin. Context, FreeGrace, context.

Of course. That has been MY point all along. Christ paid the entire debt, once and for all. All sin has been paid for and "taken away". But your view concludes that certain sins need more sacrifice. And you haven't explained that huge problem.

The passage is about the end of the Mosaic system of forgiveness of sin, not the end of Christ's sacrifice.

Yes, it is. He died ONCE for ALL. Not "again and again", as your view concludes. Why should your sins determine the effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice? They don't, btw.

For some inexplicable reason, your view is that unrepentant sin/loss of faith makes Christ's sacrifice of no effect. Do you know how blasphemous that notion is?

Christ's sacrifice did not take away the need for Christ's sacrifice. That's logically absurd.

Of course it is absurd to say that. And I never have said that. Christ's sacrifice was ONCE for ALL. Apparently you don't know what that means. One sacrifice for all sins for all time. Do you know what that means?

Especially since the Bible tells us believers to confess our sins when we don't walk in the light, today, in order to be cleansed of that unrighteousness, but if there is no more sacrifice remaining, or required, not even Christ's sacrifice, to appeal to for our forgiveness, how is our present sin forgiven?

As you have noted, by confession. That keeps up in fellowship, another concept that seems absent from your view. Read 1 John and count the # of times John mentioned "fellowship". That is key.

It can't be if Christ's sacrifice does not 'remain' for us in heaven to do that for us.

Hebrews never spoke of Christ's sacrifice "remaining for us". I think you are very confused.

And, of course, you're going to say that we only ask forgiveness in order to stay in fellowship with God, and again I will ask, if Christ's sacrifice no longer remains for sin what sacrifice for sin is there for us to forgiven for today's sins by which we can be restored to fellowship with God?

You are in error to think that Christ's sacrifice "no longer remains". That is NOT what Hebrews says. You have misread the passage.

Yes, the sins you have committed already are taken away when you first believe. And when you sin again Christ is there to deal with those sins, too, but you have to bend in humility and ask for that forgiveness again to have that forgiveness, not continue on in our merry, willful, unrepentant, unconfessed sin, thinking Christ's sacrifice that removed your previous sin has already removed the guilt of the sin you are just now committing.

No, Christ has already taken away the sins of the world. Once for all. Until you understand that properly, there will be no orientation of God's Word.

Christ's sacrifice remains in heaven on the altar for us to stay clean and forgiven when we sin, if and when we ask for that forgiveness.

What??? Christ's sacrifice has already been paid. It doesn't remain anywhere. All sins have been taken away. Once for all.

But if we reject and trample on his sacrifice through careless unconfessed, unrepentant sin his sacrifice for your sin 'no longer remains'.

I understand you loud and clear. Your unrepentant sin nullifies Christ's sacrifice. I had no idea that you were so powerful, as to be able to nullify the sacrifice of Christ. Amazing, but arrogant view.

What you obviously misunderstand is that Christ has already taken away all sin, once and for all. Your lifestyle has no effect on Christ's sacrifice, unless you are more powerful than He is.

It remains through a thoughtful decision to call on it when you sin in weakness and ignorance or fear, not when you trample on it and abuse it through willful, unrepentant, unconfessed sin.

Nonsense. imho

 

[FreeGrace]

Wasn't he real clear when he said the wages earned for sin is death? Or is this another scripture whose plain words also don't really mean what they so plainly say?

Now are we going to guard egos here at the expense of spiritual truth and refuse to acknowledge that Paul plainly said the wages earned for sin is death, bending, even ignoring what he said? Or are we going to bend to truth so truth can be unhindered and unsuppressed by the wickedness of man's pride?

Paul said the shameful work of our sin is paid back to us with the earned wages of death, but that 'life' can not be earned through work, but can only be given as a free gift, through the forgiveness of that sin, not the working off of that sin through doing righteous work, because that is impossible to do. Paul is very clear, the wages earned from God for sin is death. But that the life God gives is a gift, freely given to the one who has faith that Christ is his sacrifice for the forgiveness and removal of the sin that earned him the wages of death.

Paul told the Ephesian believers that they were dead in transgressions before they believed. They were born that way. The wages of sin doesn't refer to individual sins, as your view is demanding. It refers to Adam's original sin, which was transmitted to every human being. So, we didn't earn death. We are simply born spiritually dead, condemned already. Even before we sin.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

Seems you fail to understand what "plain words" mean. You and others have taken words that don't say or mean salvation and assumed they do mean salvation.

You sir, are the one who ignores and redefines what words mean.

Jesus Christ Himself gives us the context and definition of a word or phrase.


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-45


Based on the context of Jesus' teaching here, inherit the kingdom has everything to do with eternal life or not.

Verse 46 is the clincher - these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

• 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

These who are standing before the throne of Christ on judgement Day, who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these horrifying words spoken to them -

• Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

These are Christians, Brothers in Christ, that Paul is warning.


The meaning of this phrase, does not change when the Apostle Paul, who represents Jesus Christ, and whom Christ constantly spoke through, through whom also the Holy Spirit wrote most of the New Testament.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

Yes, it is. He died ONCE for ALL. Not "again and again", as your view concludes. Why should your sins determine the effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice? They don't, btw.

For all clearly means for all men.

Please post your scripture. Chapter and verse and explain what you mean.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You are. Did you forget?

Telling untruths isn't nice. Or moral. When have I taught that believers aren't responsible for their behavior? Never.

You say that we don't lose the grace of God's sacrifice for sin when we trample on the grace of God's sacrifice for sin through willful unrepentant sin.

I say that God's grace is far greater than anything you can do. But maybe your view is that you are more powerful than God's grace.

Why would anyone think that their sin nullifies the sacrifice of Christ? That is absurd.

I'm bugged that many are telling the people of God that they can even go so far as to reject the grace of God and still have the grace of God to cover their sin of rejecting the grace of God. It has nothing to do with some kind of envy of other Christians getting away with murder.

While that is true, I certainly don't teach it alone. I ALWAYS teach the warning passages for discipline and loss of rewards, 2 doctrines that are nearly absent in your view.

I love the truth and it pangs me to see people led astray away from the grace of God by a suppression of the truth of God through the arrogance of a so-called superior knowledge that hides behind and even negates the plain words of scripture.

Just look into a mirror, if you so 'love the truth'. You think a sinful lifestyle nullifies the sacrifice of Christ. Which means that your sins are more powerful than Christ's sacrifice. That view is blasphemous, imho.

James reminds us that God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

I'd say that the thinking that one's sinful lifestyle is more powerful than Christ's sacrifice is rather "proud". You just ain't that powerful.

He says God comes near to you IF you come near to him.

Fellowship.

Grace is not for the arrogant, unrepentant, willful sinner who thinks he still has the grace of God's forgiveness in Christ, as you say he does.

When God removes His grace, that means one loses His protection, not salvation. And then satan has the opportunity to "devour" those he prowls around to devour. How pleasant to you really think that scenario would be?

Grace is for the humble, repentant seeker of God. But OSAS says grace even covers rejecting grace after you've received it, because salvation is so utterly and completely not of what you do, or think, or anything.

Because that is true. And you seem to hate that truth.

That is a distortion of grace.

Nope. Your view is the distortion. Why do you think a sinful lifestyle is more powerful and is able to nullify the grace of God and the sacrifice of Christ? John the baptizer said that He was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Do you understand who the "world" is here? It includes all unbelievers, who have never trusted in Christ, or repented of their sin. Yet, Christ took their sin away.

You surely don't 'earn' grace by what you do (that's a contradiction of terms), but you surely can only access it and keep it through faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ.

Grace is always there. But the unrepentant believer will lose God's protection, which allows satan to have his way. Does that seem pleasant to you? satan wants to devour believers. And when God removes His grace, satan gets his way. Is that any way to die? Think about it.

Willful, unrepentant, arrogant sin is hardly having faith in the forgiveness of Christ. Anyone who thinks that is deceived.

Of course not. But your disgraces the grace of God by the idea that man's sin nullifies the sacrifice of Christ.

Assuming you attend a church that believes and teaches what you believe let's start with the name of your church and denomination. But I'm confident that you can more easily compile a list of who teaches you what you believe.

I asked you to name those who teach the nonsense you claim. You said I did, and I refuted your silly charge. I'm still waiting for names of those who teach what you claim.

I attend a non demoninational church.

Non-OSAS knows what it is NOT. It is NOT a license to trample on the blood of Christ--rejecting the favor of God he's provided in Christ--and still having the favor of God you rejected. But you are sure that Hebrews is teaching that if a believer sanctified by the blood of Christ sins defiantly, trampling on the blood that sanctified him, no sacrifice for sin remaining in that case means it is isn't needed, Christ having already covered your rejection of him when you first believed. OSAS is the doctrine that distorts and misrepresents the grace of God.

Again, you have failed to understand Hebrews. What "no sacrifice for sin remains" means is that because of what Christ has already done, returning to the Law and sacrifice cannot work. You need to research the problem that Hebrews addresses. Jewish believers were being persecuted for their faith, so they were returning to animal sacrifice to reduce their persecution. And because Christ already paid the sacrifice once for all, there is NO MORE sacrifice (in the law) for sin.

iow, the author of Hebrews was telling them that a return to animal sacrifice cannot work. Christ already paid the price in full.

[QUTOE]The kindness of God expressed to us in Jesus Christ is the forgiveness of sin we receive in Jesus Christ. Are you suggesting that grace is not given so that you can be forgiven, and as a result, be declared righteous and saved?

How silly. Of course I am not suggesting that.

IOW, that salvation is just because God saved you, not because you had faith in the blood that forgives

Uh, we are saved because we have believed. Eph 2:8.

[QUTOE]Salvation is the forgiveness of sins.

All sins, past, present and future, which you obviously reject. Yet, salvation is a lot more than that. Your ilk keeps treating salvation like some kind of a coin that can be lost, misplaced, or given away.

There is no salvation without the forgiveness of sin. They are inseparable. And that forgiveness of sins is secured through faith in that which forgives--the blood of Christ. No more faith in the blood means no more access to God's power for salvation. No more faith in the blood means no more of that which shields and protects us until the coming of the salvation ready to be revealed in the last of days.

What also is inseparable is eternal life, becoming a child of God, being justified, all based on placing one's faith in Christ.

Why do you fight against Rom 11:29? God's gifts and calling is irrevocable. Do you know what that means?

 

[FreeGrace]

You sir, are the one who ignores and redefines what words mean.

Jesus Christ Himself gives us the context and definition of a word or phrase.


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-45


Based on the context of Jesus' teaching here, inherit the kingdom has everything to do with eternal life or not.

Verse 46 is the clincher - these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

• 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

These who are standing before the throne of Christ on judgement Day, who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these horrifying words spoken to them -

• Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

These are Christians, Brothers in Christ, that Paul is warning.


The meaning of this phrase, does not change when the Apostle Paul, who represents Jesus Christ, and whom Christ constantly spoke through, through whom also the Holy Spirit wrote most of the New Testament.


JLB

Your record is broken.

 

[FreeGrace]

For all clearly means for all men.

While it does, the verse in Hebrews means for all time. iow, one sacrifice for all sins for all time.

Please post your scripture. Chapter and verse and explain what you mean.JLB

Heb 10:10 - By the which will we aresanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The phrase "once for all" is one word in the Greek: ephapax
1) once, at once
1a) all at once
1b) once for all

iow, His one sacrifice was made on behalf of all men one time. Not time and again, as the animal sacrifice of the law required. The writer of Hebrews was contrasting the repetition of the law's sacrifice with Christ's one time perfect sacrifice.

Which John the baptizer noted actually would take away the sin of the world. He was referring to all sin of all people.

 

[JLB]

Free grace said -

While it does, the verse in Hebrews means for all time. iow, one sacrifice for all sins for all time.

You will have to post the chapter and verse.

You have already been caught, redefining what the words of Jesus mean, as He plainly taught us about salvation.

When Paul uses the exact phrase as Jesus, you have decided it means something else.

Your ability to interpret clear plain literal words are in serious question by me, and, most likely those who read this thread.

With this type of interpretation method, one can just simply change what the scriptures mean to suit there own pet doctrine, which is what you have clearly been caught doing in front of everyone, on such a highly important subject matter.

I for one simply don't trust what you write, so please write out the chapter and verse so we can all see.

No offense. Just need the chapter and verse.


JLB

 

[Obadiah]

It's Saturday night, and tomorrow is Sunday, both are days that a lot of us dedicate to worshiping God or ministering to and facilitating that worship for others. I think in light of that, this is a good time to end this fighting and bickering that is going nowhere that it hasn't gone a thousand times before. Nothing new is being said here that hasn't been said for hundreds of years by many theologians on both sides of this, and this has just devolved into bickering, fighting, accusing, and insulting. Let's instead focus on worshiping and serving our God for a little while instead of this fighting with each other.

I've seen nothing new here lately that is worth continuing.

This thread is closed. Please do not start any new threads on this same subject for a while. Let's give it a rest.