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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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OSAS discussion without using scripture
- Thread starter DRS81
- Start date
What makes one think that anyone "leaving Him" equals loss of salvation. Just consider the beautiful picture that Jesus painted about being held in God's hand in John 10:28-29.
The point is clear: it's the Father who holds our hand. Those who supposedly "leave Him" don't have enough strength to break His grip on us.
What kind of human father is it who would let his own child break his grip? Makes no sense.
Children can rebel. But that does not change the relationship. They are STILL the child and the parent is STILL the parent.
Once a child of God, always a child of God. The non-OSAS view irrationally believes that rebellion ends the relationship.
There's nothing in Scripture to suggest that.
The biggest problem with the non-OSASers is that they do not understand what grace means. Not in the slightest.
If what were true? Jesus words?
- 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
- 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Grace is God's power to accomplish what you can not do on your own, bestowed upon you by His love and favor.
If one takes His power, the Spirit of Grace, and lives a lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh, which is practicing unrighteousness, then that person lifes a life of insulting the Spirit of Grace.
That person holds the truth in unrighteousness.
Not inheriting the Kingdom of God means being banished from the kingdom of God to the everlasting fires of hell.
These are the words of Jesus.
You are arguing with Jesus.
- 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
- 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
There will be one of two phrases spoken to us on the Day of Judgement.
Inherit the kingdom = partaker of God's Kingdom on the Day of Judgement.
Not inherit the kingdom = you are not a partaker of God's kingdom on the Day of Judgement: sentenced to everlasting fires of hell with the devil and his angels.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
These are Christians, Brothers in Christ, that Paul is warning.
JLB
Inherit the kingdom is a phrase that Jesus uses on the Day of Judgement.
Jesus defines what this phrase means, not you!
All you have to do is read the plain and clear words of Jesus Christ to understand what this phrase means.
Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
The others who do not inherit the kingdom here these words -
Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
When Paul uses this phrase it means the same thing.
You are the one who is trying to redefine what this phrase not inherit the kingdom, means.
Inherit the kingdom = partaker of God's Kingdom on the Day of Judgement.
Not inherit the kingdom = you are not a partaker of God's kingdom on the Day of Judgement: sentenced to everlasting fires of hell with the devil and his angels.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
These are Christians, Brothers in Christ, that Paul is warning.
Where is the word inheritance in this verse?
It's not here. This verse does not mention inheritance!
You are saying inheritance. The scripture does not say inheritance.
...inherit the kingdom, the exact phrase that Jesus uses on the Day of Judgement!
Now you are out of excuses, you are out of re-definitions.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I sense that you asked JLB to define it in post #170.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The Bible plainly says you can not go on willfully sinning and still have the sacrifice of Christ to cover that sin.
That's not a works salvation. That's the damnation earned by sinning outside of the grace of God. The grace of God was given to us to be holy, not so we can continue in willful sin and still have the blood of Christ cover that sin.
OSAS terribly distorts and misrepresents what grace is. It is NOT a license to continue to willfully sin and not have to seek God's forgiveness when we sin. But OSAS says it is. If any Christian has been lulled to sleep by what OSAS says about God's grace and continued sin, they have a rude awakening in store for them on the Day of Christ. They are among those who will be caught unawares. We've been warned, church. Do not be deceived!
No, your "take" on what Scripture says. Your view that salvation can be lost.
This repeated mantra doesn't become true by repetition. Paul wrote Rom 8:38, in which there is NOTHING that can separate the child of God, including "things future". That covers everything, yet you have completely dodged that.
That's right. Which is why salvation is God's responsibility, not yours. You cannot save your self, any more than you can keep yourself saved. When God saves, He never "gives it back". There are NO verses that say what you claim.
Correct. But your conclusion cannot be found in Scripture. The ones described here are disobedient CHILDREN, and will be treated as disobedient children.
Are you aware that all false doctrine is unrighteousness as well? One may want to think about that.
No, I have explained the difference many times to you , yet you continue to ignore and dodge the issue.
Yep. Saved and lost. Based on faith in Christ. Those who have believed become born again, have eternal life, and are NOT subject to the second DEATH, which you continue to dodge.
Your erroneous understanding leads to the false notion that Christ didn't die for these specific sins. That notion is ludicrous.
I'm not arguing about His use of the word. You have failed to differentiate between what Jesus was speaking about and what Paul was speaking about.
Because Christ died for ALL sin, your interpretation of Paul's words is wrong.
I'm not arguing about what Jesus said.
It is sad when one ignores context completely.
Nope. I'm paying attention to context, unlike yourself.
[/QUOTE]You are saying inheritance. The scripture does not say inheritance.
...inherit the kingdom, the exact phrase that Jesus uses on the Day of Judgement![/quote]
Hello?? Are you not aware of the relationship between "inherit" and "inheritance"??
I wish you would quit dodging the issues I've brought up. It's your view that has no excuse for your erroneous interpretation.
No, Scripture does NOT say that. You only think it means that. It sure doesn't say that.
More error. No one "earns damnation". Know why? Because all are "condemned already" before belief in Christ. Jn 3:18.
That really bothers some, I know. It really bugs some to think that some of God's children "might" get away with willful sin. But not to worry. No one gets away with anything. It's just that God's grace is FAR greater than your view of it.
lol.
But, people are free to respond to God or rebel against Him. And I'm talking about His children. But once a child, ALWAYS a child, and you cannot refute that.
Those who think that have either failed to pay attention or have had very poor pastors who failed to teach the doctrine of eternal security and the doctrine of divine discipline. Or they have not been taught because they haven't availed themselves of Bible teaching.
Hello?? Are you not aware of the relationship between "inherit" and "inheritance"??[/QUOTE]
The word inheritance does not appear in this scripture.
Iherit the kingdom is the phrase Paul uses.
The very phrase jesus uses.
You have run out of excuses!
There is now nothing else for you to try and redefine.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Paul is plainly speaking to born again Christians.
Paul uses the exact phrase as Jesus.
Case closed!
OSAS is a completely unscriptural doctrine.
Paul says Those brothers in Christ who practice this wicked fleshly lifestyle will not inherit the kingdom.
NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM!
The same exact word for word phrase Jesus used on the Day of Judgement.
The word of God has found you out brother.
Now all that is left, is for you to repent for teaching a doctrine that is against the scriptures.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I know how you make the scripture NOT say what it so plainly says. You try to equate the teaching that a Mosaic sacrifice is not required for sin that has been forgiven in Christ with the teaching that you can't have a sacrifice for sin that you have chosen to reject through willful sin. But that is what one must do in order to make the plain words about losing Christ's sacrifice through willful sin go away.
I would have expected you to at least know the basic gospel message. The wages of sin is death. You EARN those wages of death by 'doing' sin, as opposed to the GIFT of life that you receive through the forgiveness of sins, not received as the wages for doing righteous work. But you say no one earns damnation.
No, it bugs me that some in the church teach that believers can purposely choose to reject God's grace by purposely sinning and still have the grace of God--the grace of God they rejected--to cover that sin.
Grace is given to the one who wants it and seeks to use it to be forgiven of their past sins and leave that life of sin. It is not given to the one who wants to continue in their life of sin but just wants the guilt to go away.
So many are being taught that grace is a 'get out of jail free' card to keep you guilt free while you continue in your sinful lifestyle. Like I say, so many in the church simply do not understand what grace is. Grace is given to be forgiven of your sins and to leave those sins. It's not grace to purposely continue in sin and reject that grace. There is no grace given for rejecting grace. That would be the distortion and misrepresentation of grace I was speaking of. To which you say:
It's interesting that you avoid the very real part of the analogy of parent/child about children wanting nothing to do with the parents or their inheritance. Or how kids are written out of their parents will because of disobedience.
And this strange logic that, somehow physical birth through a parent, which is obviously physically irreversible, means God can't withdraw the presence of the Holy Spirit--the new life--from within the believer. Not only do many in the church not understand grace, so many do not understand what the new life is that is placed inside a believer. It's not a baby. It's God's Spirit giving new power and 'life' to your already existing spirit.
The problem is so many in the church are being erroneously taught that having the security of eternal life through faith in Christ's forgiveness is in no way shape or form connected to righteous work, little knowing that the faith that secures eternal life is the faith that works righteousness in a person, not unrighteousness.
Eternal life is contingent on having your sins forgiven through Christ. But you can't have--or keep--that forgiveness of sins if you reject it as demonstrated by a willful decision to keep sinning. But many grace teachers will continue to teach that you can't do anything good or bad to affect your salvation, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the wages of unrepentant, unforgiven sin is still spiritual death, even for the person who once was forgiven but has now rejected that forgiveness as demonstrated by willfully continuing in their sin.
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OK, got it. You don't see any connection between "inherit" and "inheritance". Interesting, but does shed light on how you come to some of your conclusions.
When one completely ignores the context, then one comes to such erroneous conclusions.
Since you see no connection between 'inherit' and 'INHERITance', I no longer expect that you'll be able to understand how context determines the specific meaning of words.
This is correct. The warning is definitely to believers. Children of God. Saved people. Those who possess eternal life.
What is "not inheriting" the kingdom based on here? Sins. Paul didn't condition the "not inheriting" on failure to repent, but on behavior. So, the obvious conclusion of your misunderstanding here is that sinful behavior keeps one out of heaven.
Are you aware of how much King Saul failed God? Yet, in spite of all his failures and disobedience, Samuel came back from the death to tell him that he would join him the next day. So, where was Samuel after death? Paradise. Where Saul would join him, in spite of all his disobedience.
No, more like "mind closed".
To "not inherit" means "no inheritance". Duh.
No, you have revealed your "methods" of analysis and since you ignore context, there is no expectation of a reasonable or rational discussion on the subject.
You redefine what Jesus plainly said.
He said inherit the kingdom...
Paul using the Phrase Jesus used, says the exact same thing... Inherit the kingdom.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Why would you try and teach that unrighteous ones will inherit the kingdom.
I wonder what Jesus will say to those who teach such things, on the day of Judgement?
Inherit the kingdom = Come you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom...
not inherit the kingdom = depart from Me you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil...
Inherit the kingdom = to be a partaker in God's Kingdom on the Day of Judgment.
not inherit the kingdom = to be a partaker of the everlasting fires of hell with the devil.
I pray that you repent of teaching people that they can live as they choose and still inherit the kingdom of God on Judgement Day.
JLB.
No, I've pointed out what Scripture has NOT said "so plainly".
I haven't tried to do that at all. You are in serious error.
No one "loses" Christ's sacrifice. This demonstrates how poorly you understand Christ's sacrifice. It was once for all. He DID die for all sin. That's why there is no more sacrifice for sin. He ALREADY took it away, if one believes John the baptizer. Were you not aware of that?
I explained this already, and you chose to ignore it. Jn 3:18 tells us that everyone is condemned already. We're born that way. No one earns it. Paul was real clear in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 about contrasting works and faith. Since we're born dead, we didn't earn it. Real simple.
So, who's teaching that? Can you actually name anyone? Jezebel comes to my mind. Who were you thinking about?
I still think that what really bugs you is the idea that someone may be "getting away" with sin. And your view demonstrates how little you understand of God's grace.
Cite your source, please.
Please cite what pastors, churches, or denominations that teach all this.
All who reject OSAS simply do not understand what grace is.
To be clear, grace is for salvation. Ever read Eph 2:8?
Correct. That is an abuse of grace, and Scripture is full of the warnings of what to expect from God for those children of His who think they will get away with it. They will be severely disciplined. Ever read 1 Cor 11:30? Who wants to be "weakly and sick"?
No, I haven't. But you continue to ignore the FACT that the DNA relationship NEVER changes.
Your ridiculous view has God's children rejecting heaven. Really? You really think humans have that much power?
And you keep revealing your failure to properly understand the picture of Scripture. It is God as Father, and believers as His LITTLE children, not fully mature adults, as your poor "analogy" suggests.
What decent parent would let his LITTLE child simply walk out the door and leave? That would be insane. God is NOT insane, as your view concludes.
OK, more false doctrine. But I'm not surprised. Yes, in the OT, God did remove the presence of the Holy Spirit, which is why David prayed that God would not take the Holy Spirit away from Him. But, in the NT, that is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with believers FOREVER.
But I know that words like ETERNAL and FOREVER don't have much significance your your ilk.
The new life is the REgeneration of the human spirit, which is necessary in order to worship God. Jn 4:24
You've made a lot of claims about what is being "taught", yet I'm betting you are only making a lot of assumptions. I'll bet you've NEVER heard such teaching in any church.
Inherit the kingdom, means just exactly what Jesus said.
This meaning does not change when Paul uses it.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Revelation 21:8
Maybe you think in your mind that what is being referred to here is rewards or inheritance... The scriptures here are referring to eternal damnation.
Not inherit the kingdom of god refers to eternal damnation in fire and brimstone.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
People are not stupid, even though many in the church like to condescend to others 'less enlightened' than them by attempting to show them that their spiritual revelation causes them to be able to understand plain words of scripture in some other way than what the plain words say.
We in the church have to recognize that people are not stupid and what doing this does is cast doubt and disbelief onto the very scriptures and God the 'spiritually enlightened one' is trying to lead them to. I realized it's an arrogance--the arrogance of somehow being able to know something others don't know and can't see in plain words of scripture. It's putting one's ego ahead of the spiritual welfare of the one being ministered to.
I have repented of that arrogant foolishness and now want to help humble seekers of God learn and apply plain words of scripture, not drive them away by making them feel stupid and inferior, and not privileged nor enlightened enough because they can't understand what the plain words of scripture really mean.
You gotta do better than this. You might as well just stick your tongue out at me and call me a poopie face
. I'm looking for mature, intelligent discussion. That means explaining why you think what you do in a calm, intelligent rebuttal, not just saying things like, "you're wrong" and not explaining why you think that.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Chris's death is why there is no more MOSAIC sacrifice for sin. Context, FreeGrace, context. The passage is about the end of the Mosaic system of forgiveness of sin, not the end of Christ's sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice did not take away the need for Christ's sacrifice. That's logically absurd. Especially since the Bible tells us believers to confess our sins when we don't walk in the light, today, in order to be cleansed of that unrighteousness, but if there is no more sacrifice remaining, or required, not even Christ's sacrifice, to appeal to for our forgiveness, how is our present sin forgiven? It can't be if Christ's sacrifice does not 'remain' for us in heaven to do that for us.
And, of course, you're going to say that we only ask forgiveness in order to stay in fellowship with God, and again I will ask, if Christ's sacrifice no longer remains for sin what sacrifice for sin is there for us to forgiven for today's sins by which we can be restored to fellowship with God?
Yes, the sins you have committed already are taken away when you first believe. And when you sin again Christ is there to deal with those sins, too, but you have to bend in humility and ask for that forgiveness again to have that forgiveness, not continue on in our merry, willful, unrepentant, unconfessed sin, thinking Christ's sacrifice that removed your previous sin has already removed the guilt of the sin you are just now committing.
Christ's sacrifice remains in heaven on the altar for us to stay clean and forgiven when we sin, if and when we ask for that forgiveness. But if we reject and trample on his sacrifice through careless unconfessed, unrepentant sin his sacrifice for your sin 'no longer remains'. It remains through a thoughtful decision to call on it when you sin in weakness and ignorance or fear, not when you trample on it and abuse it through willful, unrepentant, unconfessed sin.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Wasn't he real clear when he said the wages earned for sin is death? Or is this another scripture whose plain words also don't really mean what they so plainly say?
Now are we going to guard egos here at the expense of spiritual truth and refuse to acknowledge that Paul plainly said the wages earned for sin is death, bending, even ignoring what he said? Or are we going to bend to truth so truth can be unhindered and unsuppressed by the wickedness of man's pride?
Paul said the shameful work of our sin is paid back to us with the earned wages of death, but that 'life' can not be earned through work, but can only be given as a free gift, through the forgiveness of that sin, not the working off of that sin through doing righteous work, because that is impossible to do. Paul is very clear, the wages earned from God for sin is death. But that the life God gives is a gift, freely given to the one who has faith that Christ is his sacrifice for the forgiveness and removal of the sin that earned him the wages of death.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
You are. Did you forget?
You say that we don't lose the grace of God's sacrifice for sin when we trample on the grace of God's sacrifice for sin through willful unrepentant sin.
I'm bugged that many are telling the people of God that they can even go so far as to reject the grace of God and still have the grace of God to cover their sin of rejecting the grace of God. It has nothing to do with some kind of envy of other Christians getting away with murder.
I love the truth and it pangs me to see people led astray away from the grace of God by a suppression of the truth of God through the arrogance of a so-called superior knowledge that hides behind and even negates the plain words of scripture. People led astray who then live lives outside of everything God's grace is in this life for the believer, and who then risk losing God's grace in salvation altogether, not to mention the lousy witness it is to an already difficult world of unbelievers to deal with who love to point out our hypocrisy and lack of righteousness.
James reminds us that God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. He says God comes near to you IF you come near to him. Grace is not for the arrogant, unrepentant, willful sinner who thinks he still has the grace of God's forgiveness in Christ, as you say he does.
Grace is for the humble, repentant seeker of God. But OSAS says grace even covers rejecting grace after you've received it, because salvation is so utterly and completely not of what you do, or think, or anything. That is a distortion of grace. You surely don't 'earn' grace by what you do (that's a contradiction of terms), but you surely can only access it and keep it through faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ. Willful, unrepentant, arrogant sin is hardly having faith in the forgiveness of Christ. Anyone who thinks that is deceived.
Assuming you attend a church that believes and teaches what you believe let's start with the name of your church and denomination. But I'm confident that you can more easily compile a list of who teaches you what you believe.
Non-OSAS knows what it is NOT. It is NOT a license to trample on the blood of Christ--rejecting the favor of God he's provided in Christ--and still having the favor of God you rejected. But you are sure that Hebrews is teaching that if a believer sanctified by the blood of Christ sins defiantly, trampling on the blood that sanctified him, no sacrifice for sin remaining in that case means it is isn't needed, Christ having already covered your rejection of him when you first believed. OSAS is the doctrine that distorts and misrepresents the grace of God.
The kindness of God expressed to us in Jesus Christ is the forgiveness of sin we receive in Jesus Christ. Are you suggesting that grace is not given so that you can be forgiven, and as a result, be declared righteous and saved? IOW, that salvation is just because God saved you, not because you had faith in the blood that forgives, that forgiveness now qualifying you for the kingdom of righteousness?
Salvation is the forgiveness of sins. There is no salvation without the forgiveness of sin. They are inseparable. And that forgiveness of sins is secured through faith in that which forgives--the blood of Christ. No more faith in the blood means no more access to God's power for salvation. No more faith in the blood means no more of that which shields and protects us until the coming of the salvation ready to be revealed in the last of days.
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