OSAS is biblical truth. - Part 2

[gr8grace]

OSAS is biblical truth.

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.â€

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly†in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen†or “Truly, trulyâ€, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly†is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]53112[/split] by gr8grace Titled OSAS is biblical truth.

 

[christian_disable]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]53112[/split]

 

[gr8grace]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

We don't "give our life to the lord" to be saved. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross.

1Jn_3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Col_3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Joh_3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Co_12:15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

Mat_10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

If you say so..........................I have given my life to Him, since you haven't, I would strongly suggest to do so and everything you do from now on be unto the Lord with less words but speak the Word only. You can do what you want though, but I don't recommend that at all.

Reading your Post with consideration:

OK, I see what your getting at. So instead of hell fire, your denied the Kingdom of God. The scripture I used in REV could mean the unbeliever as nothing denotes that those folks were saved at one time, but Fear and unbelief still are very, very, very bad.

So, Jesus would go to the Father when reward time comes and tells the Father I don't have that person on record as doing anything. They get nothing, but are still saved from eternal hell.

I got you.

I am a Word person, so when someone brings scripture to the table and they don't sound like a loon, then I have to take scripture into account they present and consider if what that persons is presenting, possible. I may not agree, but are they sane enough without going into "Parables" "It's spiritual" "It's Hyperbole" "It's just an expression" When you start talking like that and using Hermeneutics and all kinds of mens fantasies instead of reading plainly the Word then you loose my attention real quick. By his stripes I am healed, means I am the healed and I best get in faith and seek God about it when sick. I don't question what is very clearly written. If I die sick, then my fault as I have the right to choose blessing or cursing, not God's.

So, taking that into consideration, then how far we have to go to prove your point so that it at least seems Possible? I have to ask myself that. We have to dig to much in the Greek then we are trying to hard to prove a concept.

Believers will be denied rewards and varying levels of rewards based on the DIVINE good a believer does or does not do. These verses have nothing to do with God sending born again believers to the lake of fire.

So that is it? Let's Look to see if that is at least possible.

Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
Mat 7:20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.


Here is some more scriptures. Kingdom is not a place which you know, it means to reign in or with God. Reign in Heaven as king and priest? Those folks cast out devils so had to be filled with the Holy Spirit at one time. Jesus did not deny they did not do the Works that only the Holy Spirit could do through someone. The question is, does Jesus mean you don't get an authoritative position in Heaven?

If you don't produce fruit, (Works upon a solid foundation) you are cast into the fire. Does that mean Hell? Paul said our works are tried and if burned up we are still saves as by fire. If you wanted to go that route then I think it's "Possible" you might be right considering what Kingdom really means and works are tried by fire being burnt up and no reward but still saved.

Drunks, rich, whoremongers do not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is for earth or operating with God in the law of Heaven doing the will of God on earth as it is in heaven. It may not mean you go to hell, but will have no authority or power here entering into the will and things of God. A defeated life, but still saved as by fire, like Paul said. No reward like you stated.

Putting this under examination, what you say might be possible. I have to get into some Greek though and compare scriptures so is the concept that you are still saved with no reward or is the concept that you end up in Hell?

Sorry, YLT:
Heb 6:4 for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,

Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?

Here we have one sin, knowing the truth, tasted the Holy Spirit and good things of God, but then deciding that the Blood and all thing things that come with being saved is common and not worth a thing. Often times folks during this period were going back to Judaism to avoid persecution. Serving another type of God, but counting the blood as common and unholy.

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Here we see a brother that might have left God to serve Allah, buddah or some other thing not making Jesus Lord anymore but something else. A sin unto death, John called it.

So, I see what you present with scripture can be "POSSIBLE" That once saved and you hold onto Jesus knowing your saved and tell others your saved that despite the fruit, unbelief, fear, and not doing the will of God, then you just might still be saved as if by fire and no reward. POSSIBLE?

You got it Mike.

Then I guess the next question is.......... Is OSAS about the belief that one can loose their salvation or does this have a deeper root in some election doctrine where man does not have a choice to walk away from God. What are we really discussing here?

Mike.

As to perseverance of the Saints(calvinism) and Losing salvation(Armin.) they are one in the same at the end of it all.

One says ," If you don't persevere and show fruit, you really were not saved." works based salvation.

The other says," if you do not persevere and show fruit, you will lose salvation." works based salvation.

Which has all been discussed and went through already on this thread.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

As to perseverance of the Saints(calvinism) and Losing salvation(Armin.) they are one in the same at the end of it all.

One says ," If you don't persevere and show fruit, you really were not saved." works based salvation.

The other says," if you do not persevere and show fruit, you will lose salvation." works based salvation.

Which has all been discussed and went through already on this thread.

It would seem then that the topic starts at the root of one or the other. Did you read my post though all the way? I present neither as One says God knows all and allow men to think they have free will anyway. (Armin) One says that God planed it all and not some fortune teller (Calvinism) God knowing would be God planing anyway as he puts the spirit in the body of man, unless you want to belief God has limited knowledge and only knows once the man is born which is sort of dumb.

I have taken neither stance, I asked............... OSAS is based on one fact, that it's impossible to get born again then not be born again. I addressed that in my post. Do we have a choice?

Armin believes we have a (Deceived Choice) as God knows the outcome anyway. Calvinism believes your picked and chosen to be saved and can't be lost once picked. Armin does not make sense, so it boils down to man having the choice to leave God, leave their salvation or it's once God picks, then nothing you can do about it to end up in Hell.

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

Yes, lets say we turn our faith to another god like Allah and decide we don't want Jesus anymore. Let's can the argument that the person was never really saved to begin with as that is a Calvinist belief. Let's say man really has a choice. So, we dig deeper as this is not about OSAS, because the doctrine is bust if man has a choice. It's about believing in election or not believing in it. It's our faith in that grace, though the Word (God) put it there in the first place we had ears to hear and responded at one time.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

If you don't persevere and show fruit, you really were not saved." works based salvation.

This mindset can not possibly be applied to the equation.

How can a person "persevere" in something they do not have.

Which means all that is left is if you do not persevere and show fruit, you will lose salvation."

Which is not exactly what the bible teaches.

The scriptures teach if you turn away from the living God, or you practice a lifestyle on sinful behavior you are indeed in danger of not inheriting the kingdom.

So, you have given the reader two choices to choose from that neither the bible supports nor teaches.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

We don't "give our life to the lord" to be saved. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross.

1Jn_3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Col_3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Joh_3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Co_12:15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

Mat_10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

If you say so..........................I have given my life to Him, since you haven't, I would strongly suggest to do so and everything you do from now on be unto the Lord with less words but speak the Word only. You can do what you want though, but I don't recommend that at all.

Reading your Post with consideration:

OK, I see what your getting at. So instead of hell fire, your denied the Kingdom of God. The scripture I used in REV could mean the unbeliever as nothing denotes that those folks were saved at one time, but Fear and unbelief still are very, very, very bad.

So, Jesus would go to the Father when reward time comes and tells the Father I don't have that person on record as doing anything. They get nothing, but are still saved from eternal hell.

I got you.

I am a Word person, so when someone brings scripture to the table and they don't sound like a loon, then I have to take scripture into account they present and consider if what that persons is presenting, possible. I may not agree, but are they sane enough without going into "Parables" "It's spiritual" "It's Hyperbole" "It's just an expression" When you start talking like that and using Hermeneutics and all kinds of mens fantasies instead of reading plainly the Word then you loose my attention real quick. By his stripes I am healed, means I am the healed and I best get in faith and seek God about it when sick. I don't question what is very clearly written. If I die sick, then my fault as I have the right to choose blessing or cursing, not God's.

So, taking that into consideration, then how far we have to go to prove your point so that it at least seems Possible? I have to ask myself that. We have to dig to much in the Greek then we are trying to hard to prove a concept.

Believers will be denied rewards and varying levels of rewards based on the DIVINE good a believer does or does not do. These verses have nothing to do with God sending born again believers to the lake of fire.

So that is it? Let's Look to see if that is at least possible.

Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
Mat 7:20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.


Here is some more scriptures. Kingdom is not a place which you know, it means to reign in or with God. Reign in Heaven as king and priest? Those folks cast out devils so had to be filled with the Holy Spirit at one time. Jesus did not deny they did not do the Works that only the Holy Spirit could do through someone. The question is, does Jesus mean you don't get an authoritative position in Heaven?

If you don't produce fruit, (Works upon a solid foundation) you are cast into the fire. Does that mean Hell? Paul said our works are tried and if burned up we are still saves as by fire. If you wanted to go that route then I think it's "Possible" you might be right considering what Kingdom really means and works are tried by fire being burnt up and no reward but still saved.

Drunks, rich, whoremongers do not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is for earth or operating with God in the law of Heaven doing the will of God on earth as it is in heaven. It may not mean you go to hell, but will have no authority or power here entering into the will and things of God. A defeated life, but still saved as by fire, like Paul said. No reward like you stated.

Putting this under examination, what you say might be possible. I have to get into some Greek though and compare scriptures so is the concept that you are still saved with no reward or is the concept that you end up in Hell?

Sorry, YLT:
Heb 6:4 for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,

Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?

Here we have one sin, knowing the truth, tasted the Holy Spirit and good things of God, but then deciding that the Blood and all thing things that come with being saved is common and not worth a thing. Often times folks during this period were going back to Judaism to avoid persecution. Serving another type of God, but counting the blood as common and unholy.

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Here we see a brother that might have left God to serve Allah, buddah or some other thing not making Jesus Lord anymore but something else. A sin unto death, John called it.

So, I see what you present with scripture can be "POSSIBLE" That once saved and you hold onto Jesus knowing your saved and tell others your saved that despite the fruit, unbelief, fear, and not doing the will of God, then you just might still be saved as if by fire and no reward. POSSIBLE?

You got it Mike.

Then I guess the next question is.......... Is OSAS about the belief that one can loose their salvation or does this have a deeper root in some election doctrine where man does not have a choice to walk away from God. What are we really discussing here?

Mike.

As to perseverance of the Saints(calvinism) and Losing salvation(Armin.) they are one in the same at the end of it all.

One says ," If you don't persevere and show fruit, you really were not saved." works based salvation.

The other says," if you do not persevere and show fruit, you will lose salvation." works based salvation.

Which has all been discussed and went through already on this thread.

Both of these views are false.

The Bible says Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The moment one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ He/she is saved forever, irrevocable, eternal.

Here is the Gospel witness:

If you have not yet believed in Jesus Christ as your Savior. I would like you to know, that Jesus Christ had you personally in his mind when he went to the cross. And that every sin that you have ever committed, (past, present, and future), was poured out on him and judged, while he was hanging on the cross. And this means that, where you are sitting right now, you can have eternal life, simply by believing in Jesus Christ. . .

******************** Jesus Christ himself, said the following ********************

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

.



So right now, you have an important decision to make! You can either, believe in Christ, (faith) or you can reject him. The decision is yours. You can tell God the Father, (in your own thoughts) that you are believing in his Son, and that will be the moment of eternal(forever) life for you.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

So right now, you have an important decision to make! You can either, believe in Christ, (faith) or you can reject him. The decision is yours. You can tell God the Father, (in your own thoughts) that you are believing in his Son, and that will be the moment of eternal(forever) life for you.

We are dodging the question with answers already agreed upon.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

The subject is OSAS.................... Believe in the Son Jesus get saved.

Without all kinds of circumstances and what if's at this point. The point in many of those scriptures is "Believe" So the question is, what if someone chooses not to believe after being born again. What if they decided that Allah would be better or anything but the Lord. It's a choice and that is the Question. Is OSAS mean no matter what you have to stay saved? (Only stupid people would choose not to)

A man I met in Prison served under Billy Graham in the early 70's. This man and his wife worked under this man and did things like set up and talk to people. Years go by and this man decides to worship Satan instead. He could quote whole passages of chapters in the KJV and was very impressive with Word knowledge as he studied it most his life, but decided he did not want Jesus and hated me for even mentioning Jesus.

I decided to pray for him one night and the Holy Spirit spoke up to me and said............. "Don't pray for him."

Now I can't say..... "Don't pray for him" meant he was on his way to hell, but It certainly did not look good for him because he knew the word but decided to choose different. A set of circumstances led him down the path away from Billy and into other things. He was in for murdering someone that was messing with his wife and he killed his wife. These were choices he made.

That is what I am talking about...... does OSAS remove our choice to not be saved? What happens if we stop believing which was a requirement in many scriptures.

Mike.


Mike.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

Believe in the Son Jesus get saved.

James 2:19;
Even the demons believe and they shudder.

You need to go further with your statement, it is too generalized.

What happens if we stop believing which was a requirement in many scriptures.

Try it and see what happens.

If you are truly saved, you'll find you can't do it.

 

[JLB]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

The moment one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ He/she is saved forever, irrevocable, eternal.

Here is a nice site for you to visit.

It's called ex Christian .net

http://new.exchristian.net/

I would encourage anyone who disregards the clear warning from Jesus, Paul, Peter and James as to the fate on those who turn away from Christ to another Gospel or begin to follow another Jesus, or who just fall away from the grace of God, or choose to give themselves over to be slaves of sin, to visit this site and compare what is posted with the warnings of the scriptures.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

http://new.exchristian.net/

That website is from hell.
Why do you promote it here?

 

[JLB]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

Believe in the Son Jesus get saved.

James 2:19;
Even the demons believe and they shudder.

You need to go further with your statement, it is too generalized.

What happens if we stop believing which was a requirement in many scriptures.

Try it and see what happens.

If you are truly saved, you'll find you can't do it.

If you still have faith that you are saved, then by the very meaning of faith you are still hoping for the salvation of your soul.

as it is written -

7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:7-9

and again -


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


Paul says it this way -


23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? Romans 8:23-24

Faith is the substance of what you are hoping for.

Faith is not the reality of what you are hoping for.

If you still have faith, then you are still in the process of hoping for salvation.

When you are resurrected from the dead and receive a body that will never die and you in fact inherit the kingdom of God, then who will be saved.

Until then you are hoping for that Day.

Until then you have faith that you will hear these words -


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Until then you have faith that you won't hear these words -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

Faith is what we have until we have the reality of what we are hoping for.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

If you still have faith, then you are still in the process of hoping for salvation.

When you are resurrected from the dead and receive a body that will never die and you in fact inherit the kingdom of God, then who will be saved.

Until then you are hoping for that Day.

That sounded a bit strange.............. Faith is the substance of something hoped for. I seen eternal life because I have faith in that hope and goal. I certainly don't have physical evidence of eternal life, so then the only way I can obtain is to believe.

Unless you just worded that funny or I read that funny.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

If you still have faith, then you are still in the process of hoping for salvation.

When you are resurrected from the dead and receive a body that will never die and you in fact inherit the kingdom of God, then who will be saved.

Until then you are hoping for that Day.

That sounded a bit strange.............. Faith is the substance of something hoped for. I seen eternal life because I have faith in that hope and goal. I certainly don't have physical evidence of eternal life, so then the only way I can obtain is to believe.

Unless you just worded that funny or I read that funny.

Mike.

Faith is the substance you have while you are hoping for the realty of what you believe.

If you have faith in God for salvation, then you are hoping for the reality of salvation.

If you have faith for healing, the you have the substance of the healing you are hoping for.

If you have faith for healing, then you have the substance of what you are hoping for.

When you are healed in reality, you are no longer hoping for healing because the substance of what you have been hoping have now become the reality.

If God told you through the mouth of your Pastor that you will receive a cashiers check in the mail to buy the new house you are believing for, what would that do for your faith?

You would thank God about twelve million times on the way home, while you were crying and praising His name.

You would call your sister and tell her first, because she doesn't believe any of that "faith" stuff.

You would wake up the next morning, with a grateful heart and thank God some more, but you would still be in the same place you have been living and not in your new home yet, however you have a hope and expectation you didn't have before because there was something in you that now believed with joy and expectation that you would receive what God had promised you.

You have the substance of the thing that you are hoping for while you wait for the reality of it to show up in your mail box.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

If God told you through the mouth of your Pastor that you will receive a cashiers check in the mail to buy the new house you are believing for, what would that do for your faith?

You would thank God about twelve million times on the way home, while you were crying and praising His name.

You would call your sister and tell her first, because she doesn't believe any of that "faith" stuff.

Woot, Money coming for a new house!!! Wife has been believing God and I agree. I know it was just an example but you would be surprised what comes out by the Spirit of God.

Ok, your explanation is more clear now. Faith is the Substance of something, the substance is there and we have. I am amazed at all the things God said was already ours, as He has already given use everything that pertains to our life and godliness but.................... It's through the knowledge of Him and that is where many receive not.

One house on the way, I will tell the wife...

Blessings...

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

If God told you through the mouth of your Pastor that you will receive a cashiers check in the mail to buy the new house you are believing for, what would that do for your faith?

You would thank God about twelve million times on the way home, while you were crying and praising His name.

You would call your sister and tell her first, because she doesn't believe any of that "faith" stuff.

Woot, Money coming for a new house!!! Wife has been believing God and I agree. I know it was just an example but you would be surprised what comes out by the Spirit of God.

Ok, your explanation is more clear now. Faith is the Substance of something, the substance is there and we have. I am amazed at all the things God said was already ours, as He has already given use everything that pertains to our life and godliness but.................... It's through the knowledge of Him and that is where many receive not.

One house on the way, I will tell the wife...

Blessings...

Mike.

No sister?

I missed it on the sister?


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

So right now, you have an important decision to make! You can either, believe in Christ, (faith) or you can reject him. The decision is yours. You can tell God the Father, (in your own thoughts) that you are believing in his Son, and that will be the moment of eternal(forever) life for you.

We are dodging the question with answers already agreed upon.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

The subject is OSAS.................... Believe in the Son Jesus get saved.

Without all kinds of circumstances and what if's at this point. The point in many of those scriptures is "Believe" So the question is, what if someone chooses not to believe after being born again. What if they decided that Allah would be better or anything but the Lord. It's a choice and that is the Question. Is OSAS mean no matter what you have to stay saved? (Only stupid people would choose not to)

A man I met in Prison served under Billy Graham in the early 70's. This man and his wife worked under this man and did things like set up and talk to people. Years go by and this man decides to worship Satan instead. He could quote whole passages of chapters in the KJV and was very impressive with Word knowledge as he studied it most his life, but decided he did not want Jesus and hated me for even mentioning Jesus.

I decided to pray for him one night and the Holy Spirit spoke up to me and said............. "Don't pray for him."

Now I can't say..... "Don't pray for him" meant he was on his way to hell, but It certainly did not look good for him because he knew the word but decided to choose different. A set of circumstances led him down the path away from Billy and into other things. He was in for murdering someone that was messing with his wife and he killed his wife. These were choices he made.

That is what I am talking about...... does OSAS remove our choice to not be saved? What happens if we stop believing which was a requirement in many scriptures.

Mike.


Mike.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

Yes Mike, eternal security removes your choice to "unsave Yourself." Salvation in itself removes your choice.

Salvation is God removing the ocean that you were drowning in. He didn't just pull you out and leave the ocean incase you wanted to drown yourself again. The ocean is gone you can't drown yourself in it again.

So yes mike, your prison fella, if He at one time made a sincere choice to believe, God saved Him. Position wise, He is saved. In his ongoing sanctification or progressive sanctification in this life, in his condition, he is a loser believer. He will be serving Spiritually mature believers and super grace believers in Heaven. He will be perfectly content with his role because He will know the whole truth and will not have a sin nature to make him lose track of that truth. He will be thankful and perfectly content with his "lesser role" in heaven.

 

[Eugene]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

If God told you through the mouth of your Pastor that you will receive a cashiers check in the mail to buy the new house you are believing for, what would that do for your faith?

Was this after a pitch for seed faith money? What if instead you heard the words from a pastor named Ananias: For I will shew you how great things you're to suffer for Jesus' sake? Now don't go slack on your faith or I'll kill you, and don't deny me; only Peter is allowed that, and if this ain't enough warning to scare you into doing what I want I'll cast you out of the book of life and the devil's gonna get you. Oh my.

You're telling me what Lord? I'm to go in chains before kings, be imprisoned, beaten, go hungry, and have my head cut off, and then you want me to persuade others to follow You as I do? 1 Cor 11:1. Jesus, You just know they're not going to wanna do that. How's about we promise them a prosperity gospel instead? Sounds good to me; these people aren't listening to me anyhow. I know, let's tell them to go and sin no more, or sell all they have, give to the poor, and go follow You; wait a minute, You died as the result of others, and you're asking me to love them as I do myself? Wow Lord, this all sure don't sound like what that pastor was saying.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

No sister?

I missed it on the sister?

Lol, My daughter is believing for a Sister.......................... and the wife keeps talking about another baby girl, but I assure her that one daughter is more than enough. A sister in Christ though is a Sister as that is what I call them. So when you said you missed it on the Sister, one has been talked about in this house for awhile but one for my daughter. You would be supprised how a word from the Lord comes, but then again I don't think you would be. My ears are always open to the Holy Spirit because missing him cost us. Not hearing Him cost us. Heck I ended up in our nice little Branson Jail twice for ignoring something small in my spirit man.

So when you say Sister.................... ughhh.... Wife can't see this........I did send her your post about the house though.

Yes Mike, eternal security removes your choice to "unsave Yourself." Salvation in itself removes your choice.

Thank you Grace, about time you just come out and say it. All that wrangling around.............. Then man does not have free choice, once bought and paid for and not your own, then that is it. No Choice.

As I said, it just might be possible if we read Kingdom with the Greek definition but I personally don't believe the concept is supported with Heb 6 and 10. Man has a choice to believe or not to believe, and it's that faith in grace is an ongoing thing otherwise we all live miserable lives.

Mike.

 

[gr8grace]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

No sister?

I missed it on the sister?

Lol, My daughter is believing for a Sister.......................... and the wife keeps talking about another baby girl, but I assure her that one daughter is more than enough. A sister in Christ though is a Sister as that is what I call them. So when you said you missed it on the Sister, one has been talked about in this house for awhile but one for my daughter. You would be supprised how a word from the Lord comes, but then again I don't think you would be. My ears are always open to the Holy Spirit because missing him cost us. Not hearing Him cost us. Heck I ended up in our nice little Branson Jail twice for ignoring something small in my spirit man.

So when you say Sister.................... ughhh.... Wife can't see this........I did send her your post about the house though.

Yes Mike, eternal security removes your choice to "unsave Yourself." Salvation in itself removes your choice.

Thank you Grace, about time you just come out and say it. All that wrangling around.............. Then man does not have free choice, once bought and paid for and not your own, then that is it. No Choice.

As I said, it just might be possible if we read Kingdom with the Greek definition but I personally don't believe the concept is supported with Heb 6 and 10. Man has a choice to believe or not to believe, and it's that faith in grace is an ongoing thing otherwise we all live miserable lives.

Mike.

Mike I did not wrangle, you just havent read through the thread. Its all laid out in detail posts and posts ago.

God bless Brother.

Added:

Every question and concern you have brought up since you jumped in has been went over. In detail in a lot of cases. Sorry if I was short or not detailed. I assumed you had read through.

Ecc 1:9~~That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OSAS has unbelievers entering the kingdom of heaven (at least gr8grace's version). That's completely and totally contrary to the gospel and everything God is.

Saved people love righteousness. What makes anyone think simply being plopped into the kingdom will change their hearts? They will be nothing more than Adam in the garden of paradise...except they have been tested in this world and found to love wickedness, not righteousness.