Cygnus
Member
You can't be taken from Jesus' hand. Pretty much end of discussion.
I use to think one could loose their salvation....then i discoverd that was a false doctrine.
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OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
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You can't be taken from Jesus' hand. Pretty much end of discussion.
I use to think one could loose their salvation....then i discoverd that was a false doctrine.
Nathan
Member
I agree. You cannot be taken from His hand.
Problem is, we know for a fact that people can leave Him.
Gal 1:6-7
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Paul plainly states that people were deserting Him. Not that they were being taken, but that they were leaving.
The false doctrine that is preached consistently is that a person does something to possess salvation and eternal life. And by their doing that thing, they have "done" what is "required".
Cygnus said: ↑
Some have made the argument that you directly oppose what Christ Jesus has proclaimed and they are simply defending the faith.
You're argument is that some can "leave Christ" and perish. Which directly opposes what Jesus says.
If your opinion were fact, then Jesus would have had to say this in order to avoid a false statement:
"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they don't leave, they will never perish."
But He didn't say that. There are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.
How is that NOT directly opposing what Jesus said??
Of course it is.
Some have made the argument that you directly oppose what Christ Jesus has proclaimed and they are simply defending the faith.
Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
You're argument is that some can "leave Christ" and perish. Which directly opposes what Jesus says.
If your opinion were fact, then Jesus would have had to say this in order to avoid a false statement:
"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they don't leave, they will never perish."
But He didn't say that. There are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.
Untrue. See above.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish, but your claim is that those who leave Christ will perish.
How is that NOT directly opposing what Jesus said??
Of course it is.
OK. And those He gives this life will never perish. John 10:28
So how can anyone who has ever been given this life ever perish?
Well then, your claim has a huge problem. If those who have been given eternal life can perish, IF they leave Christ, then either His or your claim is false. So, which one is false?
1. Those who have been given eternal life will never perish.
2. Those who have been given eternal life wil never perish IF they don't leave Christ.
#1 or #2
What hasn't been proven in the slightest is that leaving Him results in loss of salvation.
Which, btw, would mean His statement in John 10:28 is false.
So again, which statement is false?
1. Those who have been given eternal life will never perish.
2. Those who have been given eternal life wil never perish IF they don't leave Christ.
#1 or #2
Cygnus
Member
If you can leave...then that which persuaded you to leave...has taken you. (loss of salvation)...but as the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ clearly say....you can't be taken from His or the Fathers hand.
So, Nathan once again your OSNAS theology has shown to directly disagree with the Lords words.
Now, if you want to say leave Him means a loss of some sort of fellowship...I have no argument.
That loss of fellowship can be seen with what their works do...
1st Cor 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
....Notice how the works are burnt up...but the person is still saved.
markathome
Member
Eternal Life
1 John 5:11
"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: From Hos Son
John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: He who hears the Words of Jesus & Believes in God that sent Jesus.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: He who believes in Jesus
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who eats the Bread aka Words of Jesus
1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: He who is in Jesus & Jesus is in him.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who believes in Jesus
John 6:27
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
Who gives us Eternal Life: Son of Man
How to receive Eternal Life: He who eats the Food aka Words of Jesus
John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who hears the Words /Voice of Jesus
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who is Baptized in Holy Spirit
1 John 5:11
"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: From Hos Son
John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: He who hears the Words of Jesus & Believes in God that sent Jesus.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: He who believes in Jesus
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who eats the Bread aka Words of Jesus
1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Who gives us Eternal Life: God
How to receive Eternal Life: He who is in Jesus & Jesus is in him.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who believes in Jesus
John 6:27
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
Who gives us Eternal Life: Son of Man
How to receive Eternal Life: He who eats the Food aka Words of Jesus
John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who hears the Words /Voice of Jesus
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
Who gives us Eternal Life: Jesus
How to receive Eternal Life: He who is Baptized in Holy Spirit
Nathan
Member
I find it interesting you must resort to stating things the way you do. My theology does not directly disagree, you have not shown it. ANYONE who reads what I write, and what you write, can see you are just saying that for what I can only assume is a way of attacking me.
What persuaded you to post what you did? Did they take control of you and use your fingers to type? Leaving Christ is not the same as being taken by someone. Maybe we can better understand your thinking if you answer a question - does a person have any free will to do things, or is everything they do controlled by someone other than themselves? Why is it so difficult to understand the difference between you doing something and someone making you do something? My children used to have a hard time with it, but eventually I was able to help them see that there siblings in fact did not make them do something that they chose to do themselves.
1 Corinthians 3:15 really does not have anything to do with leaving Christ or salvation. I am drawing a blank as to why you would use that passage? That passage deals with the work we do for Christ - unless you think a person works for their salvation?
Cygnus
Member
You directly disagree with John 10:27-29. Sorry Nathan. I didn't write it....simply quote it.
If you could actually leave Christ to the point salvation is forfeited...then that what caused you to leave...free will or not...SNATCHED you. This is a direct contradiction to your position.
Nathan
Member
That's a false accusation. I do not directly, or indirectly, disagree. I agree 100% with everything Jesus said. Did someone force you to malign me?
Who has salvation? If you leave Who has it, how is it not given up by you?
Define the word snatched in the Bible. You will see that it is something that is forced, not something that is free will. Did you pass over the questions I asked on purpose?
markathome
Member
John 10:27–29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
There are Conditions: They Hear the Words of Jesus, Jesus knows them, & they follow Jesus.
If parts of this isn't followed then they are not Saved!
Example: My Goats hear not my voice, and I know them not, and they follow me not?
Example: My anti-sheep hear my voice, and I know them, but they don't follow me?
Then are they saved if they Hear the Gospel but they don't follow Jesus?
Then are they saved if they Hear the Gospel but Jesus doesn't know them?
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
There are Conditions: They Hear the Words of Jesus, Jesus knows them, & they follow Jesus.
If parts of this isn't followed then they are not Saved!
Example: My Goats hear not my voice, and I know them not, and they follow me not?
Example: My anti-sheep hear my voice, and I know them, but they don't follow me?
Then are they saved if they Hear the Gospel but they don't follow Jesus?
Then are they saved if they Hear the Gospel but Jesus doesn't know them?
Cygnus
Member
The word used has a bit more variation than the nuance you limit it to.
Secondly, even if you walked away to the point that loss of salvation was even possible..and you claim "free will" you were still snatched...plucked...
Hold on a sec. You've argued that one who is IN Christ, can leave Him in the sense of being OUT of Him, and thus, lose salvation.
Yet Jesus doesn't give anyone the right to that idea. Becuse He said those He gives eternal life will never perish. Jn 10:28
If one can leave Him so as to lose salvation, and therefore perish, then what Jesus said CANNOT be true. Do you understand this?
Please show where Scripture teaches one can "give up" salvation. That is only being assumed. To "leave" Christ is about fellowship, just as the prodigal son left His father, but retained his sonship just as the father retained his fatherhood.
What I have seen from those who believe that salvation can be lost is a failure to accept the issue of loss of fellowship. In every passage, it is unfortunately seen as loss of salvation.
Yet, no one who has been saved, which means Jesus GAVE them eternal life, can ever perish.
Because Jesus said so.
Nathan
Member
I find it interesting that its come to personal attacks on me with false accusations. The only way I can rationalize this is that the number one way to suppress the truth is to discredit the person speaking it. Not only that, but if someone does not believe what you believe then Christ made false statements? That is a road I personally would not want to go down.
I have not, in anyway, opposed what Christ said. I have, in every way, opposed what some people think that Christ meant. There is a big difference between the two.
Jesus did not say that He gives eternal life to those who are not in Him. John states that if you don't have the Son you don't have life. It is quite clear that salvation and eternal life does not exist apart from Christ. That does not oppose what Jesus said.
If a person leaves Christ, then they leave salvation and eternal life. Humans are mortal. They are not immortal like God. They have to receive life in order to live. Jesus gives life to those who are in Him, by His Spirit that lives in them. If a person chooses to deny Christ, walk away from the faith, deny the Master who bought them - they cannot take salvation and eternal life with them.
chessman
Member
Really???
1 Corinthians 3:15 (LEB) If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.
Cygnus
Member
Cygnus
Member
If you could possibly leave Jesus...WHO PURCHASED YOU...to the point you are not your own...then you stole Jesus' possession. It could then be said you took, plucked or snatched what Jesus owned and the Holy Spirit sealed....which contradicts the words of the Lord.
Good point!
Nathan
Member
You don't think Jesus gives people the right to that idea. There is a big difference. Jesus never stated that someone can have eternal life apart from Him, and He never stated someone who believes in Him could no longer believe in Him. You believe what you do based on what you think He says, but if we are looking at only the words He says - you will not find what you are saying.
What Jesus said CAN be true even if someone was to leave. Why? Because if you leave Him you leave salvation and eternal life. Jesus never stated that you can have those things if you are not in Him.
I have not seen one passage posted that said leaving Christ is only leaving fellowship. That is what is assumed. That would be like saying if I left my wife that I am only not in fellowship with her anymore. That's not the case. When a person leaves someone or something, they leave what that someone or something has. Since God is the ONLY eternal being, if you leave Him you leave "eternal" life.
Eternal life exists only though the Spirit in us. He 'gave' us His Spirit. That Spirit is eternal life. It is in His life that we have life. Apart from Him we have no life, even if He was in us before.
1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.