OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[Nathan]

Then if it is God doing the keeping, that He is the One keeping you saved, how could you by your doing ever become not saved while God is keeping you?

God saves us in Christ. He does not force us to be saved, and He does not force us to remain. He wants us to, and has made a way.

If a person decides they do not want salvation, which is freedom from sin, God does not force them to remain.

Think of salvation as Gods house. He pays all the bills, provides all the food, and gives us all we need. If a person chooses to leave His house - they choose to leave all of that behind.

Consider the children of Israel. God brought them out of slavery to the Egyptians. The children were not just merely 'living' in Egypt - they were slaves there. God gave them food. Gave them water. Their shoes and clothes never wore out. He destroyed enemies in their path.

Yet He did not make them go into the promise land. He wanted them to, but never forced them. You cannot force love, and God wants us to love Him. He allowed them to die outside the land that they chose not to go into. Their choice, not His.

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe the words "eternal" and "never perish" were written with invisible ink.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am providing clear passages, while you are not.

No verse says one can lose salvation. The verses provided have to be assumed to mean that. But none actually SAY it.

It is clear that there are those who through desire for sin choose to leave Christ. Where is your proof that they cannot, and if they do that they take salvation with them?

And which text teaches that one can "take salvation with them"??

These claims have not been found in Scripture.

 

[Nathan]

No verse says one can lose salvation. The verses provided have to be assumed to mean that. But none actually SAY it.


And which text teaches that one can "take salvation with them"??

These claims have not been found in Scripture.

The same can be said in reverse. You have not shown different from your side.

No one can take salvation with them. I think you are not reading what I post. I never said that.

If you want to have a serious discussion I'm still here. Maybe starting out with some questions can help.

Can a human be eternal?

 

[FreeGrace]

I am not going to respond to all of your different posts. I have the strong feeling you are trying to overwhelm me by flooding so many posts that say the same thing over and over. If you want to have an intelligible conversation about this, then I am all ears.

We've been trying to have an intelligent conversation about what God's word says. That's why we're all saying the same thing.

Jesus said that His sheep will never perish. When does He give eternal life to a believer? WHEN they first believe, because Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. And the fact that there are no verses that teach that eternal life is given any time AFTER one believes. So the obvious conclusion is that they receive eternal the MOMENT they believe.

No one has shown otherwise. So there's no reason to assume otherwise.

I have provided support.

This support has been shown to teach something else.

This sentence you post over and over means nothing to me at this point.

That seems pretty clear to me. Sadly.

If you can post this, then I can do the same. Post support that claims you cannot leave eternal life - because without any text, your claim is just an opinion.

Eph 1:13,14 DIRECTLY refutes your opinion that one can "take salvation with them when they leave".

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes. If a person who has come to the knowledge of Jesus being the Son of God, dying in place for their sin, setting them free from sin - then they choose to deny His Salvation and be enslaved to sin, they will not return to Christ.

Yet, in total contrast to this expressed view, Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. But this expressed view is that some who have been given eternal life CAN perish.

Totally opposed to what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace]

God forbid, if I were to choose to deny His salvation and go back to a life of sin - then, and only then would I be denied by Him before the Father.

So then, would that mean He didn't really mean what He said about those He gives eternal life?

Again, I do not keep myself saved - God already saved me. There is nothing I do that keeps me saved or makes me more saved.

But you've just noted what you CAN DO to get you unsaved. And all without any evidence from Scripture. In fact, in total opposition to what Jesus said.

If you're already saved, that means he has already given you eternal life. And therefore, you WILL NEVER PERISH.

But it seems that is not believed.

 

[Nathan]

So then, would that mean He didn't really mean what He said about those He gives eternal life?


But you've just noted what you CAN DO to get you unsaved. And all without any evidence from Scripture. In fact, in total opposition to what Jesus said.

If you're already saved, that means he has already given you eternal life. And therefore, you WILL NEVER PERISH.

But it seems that is not believed.

Your a false accuser. I never said I can do anything to "get unsaved".

Does God say that no one can leave Him? If so, where?

Does God warn people not to leave Him? Why?

Do you believe you are eternal as God is?

 

[FreeGrace]

The same can be said in reverse. You have not shown different from your side.

Give me a break!! Of course I have. Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish, in Jn 10:28.

Yet you've indicated that one who has received eternal life can get rid of it (somehow) and therefore perish.

But Jesus NEVER said that. John 10:28 indicates that ALL He gives eternal life will never perish.

[/QUOTE]No one can take salvation with them. I think you are not reading what I post. I never said that.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I misread your post. Sorry.

If you want to have a serious discussion I'm still here. Maybe starting out with some questions can help.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish.

So, can one who has been eternal life ever perish?

Can a human be eternal?

For humans, it's called "everlasting life".

 

[FreeGrace]

Your a false accuser. I never said I can do anything to "get unsaved".
This is what I just noted from one of your posts:
"But you've just noted what you CAN DO to get you unsaved."

Because this was in post #321:
"God saves us in Christ. He does not force us to be saved, and He does not force us to remain. He wants us to, and has made a way.

If a person decides they do not want salvation, which is freedom from sin, God does not force them to remain."

Does God say that no one can leave Him? If so, where?

What Jesus said is clear: those He gives eternal life will never perish. Jn 10:28

Does God warn people not to leave Him? Why?

YES. Because He wants fellowship with His children AND He wants them to produce fruit.

Do you believe you are eternal as God is?

No, of course not. But He STILL gives ETERNAL LIFE to those who believe.

 

[Nathan]

Give me a break!! Of course I have. Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish, in Jn 10:28.

Yet you've indicated that one who has received eternal life can get rid of it (somehow) and therefore perish.

But Jesus NEVER said that. John 10:28 indicates that ALL He gives eternal life will never perish.

No one can take salvation with them. I think you are not reading what I post. I never said that.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I misread your post. Sorry.[/QUOTE]
Jesus is the eternal life. If a person leaves Him, they leave life.

1 John 5:20 (ESV)
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Do you believe that you are eternal as God is? If you leave Christ(or never come to Him) can you retain eternal life in yourself?

Eternal means there is no beginning or end. Do you believe that eternal life has a beginning?

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe that you are eternal as God is?

If you leave Christ(or never come to Him) can you retain eternal life in yourself?

Those who never believed NEVER HAD eternal life. Those who HAVE received eternal life will never perish. Because Jesus said so and the verses have been shown over and over.

Eternal means there is no beginning or end. Do you believe that eternal life has a beginning?

Of course not.

 

[Nathan]

Those who never believed NEVER HAD eternal life. Those who HAVE received eternal life will never perish. Because Jesus said so and the verses have been shown over and over.


Of course not.

I do not understand. Do you believe you are eternal like God?

 

[Cygnus]

Eternal means there is no beginning or end. Do you believe that eternal life has a beginning?

Eternl can extend in both directions...and eternal can extend into the future only. Eternal doesn't mean there was no beginning. It can...but isn't limited to that.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
Was Paul saved when he wrote these words, and what is winning Christ?

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PAUL, and then in 1 Cor 11:1 you tell us to follow Jesus as you did, because we will be judged for reward according to Rom 2:16, and you received that gospel by our risen Savior. Gal 1:11-12.

Do OSNAS love Jesus as part of their retaining their salvation?
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Can they just go about murdering others, committing fornication, or even breaking the speed limit, and still think they retain the faith to someday be given eternal life? Is this what winning Christ means to them?

people who don't believe in OSAS as myself don't believe you just retain your salvation regardless of what sin you commit...in fact that usually is the stigma that OSAS believers have.

 

[Nathan]

Eternl can extend in both directions...and eternal can extend into the future only. Eternal doesn't mean there was no beginning. It can...but isn't limited to that.

Does something which is dead mean it's alive? Does truth mean it can be false?

How do you come to the conclusion that eternal can have a beginning? Seriously Cygnus, you are trying to redefine what words mean. If your going to redefine that eternal can have a beginning, are you also going to say it can have an end? Why not?

God is eternal, you agree? Did God have a beginning?

 

[Eugene]

People who don't believe in OSAS as myself don't believe you just retain your salvation regardless of what sin you commit...in fact that usually is the stigma that OSAS believers have.

Welcome dear Brother JESUS=G.O.A.T. in Jesus' name, and thanks for your reply.
What sin do you allow, and which ones do you commit? If so, is it so that grace may abound? Rom 6:1.

I would like your doctrine of the winning of Christ if you have one (Php 3:8). To me that is the reason we go on with Jesus instead of just being caught up the moment we're born of God. No one else has approached it yet.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Gregg T]

God saves us in Christ. He does not force us to be saved, and He does not force us to remain. He wants us to, and has made a way.

If a person decides they do not want salvation, which is freedom from sin, God does not force them to remain.

Think of salvation as Gods house. He pays all the bills, provides all the food, and gives us all we need. If a person chooses to leave His house - they choose to leave all of that behind.

Consider the children of Israel. God brought them out of slavery to the Egyptians. The children were not just merely 'living' in Egypt - they were slaves there. God gave them food. Gave them water. Their shoes and clothes never wore out. He destroyed enemies in their path.

Yet He did not make them go into the promise land. He wanted them to, but never forced them. You cannot force love, and God wants us to love Him. He allowed them to die outside the land that they chose not to go into. Their choice, not His.

You are putting the cart before the horse again, thinking that someone is saved before they believe into Christ.

Frankly, I am weary of trying to sort out your many inconsistencies, which include:

'Sinning is not turning away in the sense the idea is used in the Bible'
God keeps us saved, but we can become not-saved.
One need not do anything to become saved, but once he is in Christ then he must believe
'You can leave it, but it is still called eternal'
Nothing can separate us from the love of God, but we can leave him
a good shepherd brings stray sheep back into the fold, but lets them go if they want to
God saves in Christ, its a done deal . . . but its not a done deal if someone leaves Him

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Those who never believed NEVER HAD eternal life. Those who HAVE received eternal life will never perish. Because Jesus said so and the verses have been shown over and over."

I do not understand. Do you believe you are eternal like God?

And I do not understand how your question has any relevance to what I posted.

What, specifically, is not understood in my statements? They are rather straightforward.

First statement:
Those who never believed never had eternal life. What isn't clear about that?

Second statement:
Those who have received eternal life will never perish. This comes straight from John 10:28. Again, what isn't clear about this?

Maybe you missed my post about the biblical word for "eternal" when applied to humans: everlasting. What isn't clear about that?

 

[FreeGrace]

people who don't believe in OSAS as myself don't believe you just retain your salvation regardless of what sin you commit...in fact that usually is the stigma that OSAS believers have.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Do you see action and result here or not?

The action is what Jesus does: "I give them eternal life"

The result is also what Jesus promises: "and they shall never perish".

If salvation can be lost, then what Jesus said was meaningless. Because in order to have salvation, one is given eternal life.

So, how can one who has received eternal life, and therefore is saved, ever perish, when Jesus said they will NEVER perish??