OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan. Just wanted you to know that I'm in agreement with you. As I view what you said, I'm thinking of this....
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God".... I would think that the "Word of God" is the Gospel.

8:12 "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.".... These people never had a chance!

8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away".... Ah, here we go with, as you say, "falls/walks/turns away". Now, this poses a question in my mind. Jesus says here, "they believe for a while" hmm, for a year? 10 years, then comes temptation and they "Fall away".

8:14 "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection." .... These folk "hear, and go forth". I would think these only believed for a very short time before Satan, like verse 12, floods their minds with cares, riches, and pleasures (Boys with their toys). Choked results in no life. Strong's says, "to strangle completely"

8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." The only ones truly saved and sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit.

May the Lord bless you Nathan....I Love You,
Chopper

You see it exactly as I do. People seem to be more concerned with the gift than the Giver of the gift.

Once you focus on the Giver, rather than the gift, you see the truth in it all. I hope that some who put more trust in what they have done and what that 'guarantees' them, will soon turn all their trust to the God of Salvation alone.

Your one of a kind Chopper - the love is mutual.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you Nathan. You're one of a kind as well!! That's why when two agree.... Matthew 18:18 "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."

You and I bind false theology, In Jesus Name, and for His Name sake in this thread. Amen & Amen.

 

[FreeGrace]

Faith is the avenue of which God saves us. When a person turns from faith, they most certainly turn from salvation also.

"most certainly"?? Please support your opinion with actual Scripture.

Faith and salvation are inseparable. When you deny one, you are denying the other.

Please support your opinion with actual Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

I feel sorry for the poor deceived Brethren that reject Calvin's Reformation theology. I've been a student of Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" for probably 20 - 25 years. I find that those who reject Calvin, don't really know much about his positions, just what they've heard from others.

As a believer who is neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I would like to point out that biblical election has never been about salvation. Ever.

The Bible indicates (at least) 6 categories or types of election, and none are about salvation.
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16

6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

What each of these categories have in common is service, not salvation.

Thoughts?

 

[FreeGrace]

You seem confused.

I don't believe so.

Leaving the faith is the same as leaving Salvation. You say....
"While one can cease to believe, they cannot cease to be saved." Excuse Me? If they cease to believe, they become lost!!

This remains to be an opinion, and one that has not been shown from Scripture. It's just an assumption only.

If salvation could be lost, for ANY reason, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The fact is that the result of being given eternal life is that th recipient will never perish. That is exactly what Jesus meant. Nothing less.

And no one has shown otherwise.

 

[Nathan]

The fact is that the result of being given eternal life is that th recipient will never perish. That is exactly what Jesus meant. Nothing less.

This is what you think He meant. You have not proven that He meant what you say He does - its only your opinion.

On the other hand, Jesus did say that He gives(not gave) His sheep eternal life - and because He gives(not gave) them life they will never perish. So its quite clear, that if He is no longer giving them life, they will perish.

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Rom 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Rev 14:9-13
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

 

[Nathan]

Cygnus, I think that you both should grow up and stop this DEBATE before one of you seriously offends the other. It looks to me like words of hatred between you two. I don't think Reba will mind if I use her name. She and I don't like to see two Brothers throwing, one of Reba favorite words, SNARKY remarks back and forth.

I like this verse....
1John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

Come on guys. remember this....Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

So, if Christ liveth in Nathan, and Christ Liveth in Cyrus, Who are you insulting with all your words which certainly are not loving. I'll tell you....Jesus Who lives in you both!!

I Love you Two!
Chopper

Chopper, I always appreciate a brother who wants to see union and not separation.

I am curious though, you call me out as throwing "SNARKY" remarks out. I would like to know, for my personal edification, which remarks you think are snarky/insulting. I am not saying there could not be any, but sometimes it helps when someone else shows you where the error is. I have looked, but do not find any.

 

[JLB]

"most certainly"?? Please support your opinion with actual Scripture.


Please support your opinion with actual Scripture.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8

We are saved through faith.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8

We are saved through faith.



JLB

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith."

 

[Chopper]

perhaps....what I do know is that that verse is one of the most controversial in the bible.

I may be controversial to the ignorant, but absolutely clear to men of the Word of God.

 

[Cygnus]

I may be controversial to the ignorant, but absolutely clear to men of the Word of God.

One thing I have come to understand is the verse isn't about losing salvation. That is one point that is controversial. There is a lot of other "stuff" in that verse as your commentary presented earlier pointed out.

 

[Randy]

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith."

The one who wrote that was set aside at birth before he had done good or bad. HE wasn't chosen because HE was full of faith or the holy spirt but by the grace of GOD. HE understood perfection could not come by obeying laws and that love was not made perfect through fear.
that said i am freewill. IF one becomes faithless the lord will remain faithful because HE can't deny Himself. However if one denies the LORD the LORD will deny that one before the Father. THE lord himself stated, "remain in me and I will remain in you". Thats clear enough to teach from the mouth of the one who judges. We were baptized into Jesus's death and resurrection. Through death we have escaped the power of the law. The illustration of marriage was given that is if you spouse dies you are free to marry another. I/we can do many righteous things in our life but our hope should not be in our own righteousness but in GODS grace received by faith in Jesus Christ. A righteousness credited to us by faith. FOR what work can one do that GOD has to repay. ITS all grace.

 

[Nathan]

The one who wrote that was set aside at birth before he had done good or bad. HE wasn't chosen because HE was full of faith or the holy spirt but by the grace of GOD. HE understood perfection could not come by obeying laws and that love was not made perfect through fear.
that said i am freewill. IF one becomes faithless the lord will remain faithful because HE can't deny Himself. However if one denies the LORD the LORD will deny that one before the Father. THE lord himself stated, "remain in me and I will remain in you". Thats clear enough to teach from the mouth of the one who judges. We were baptized into Jesus's death and resurrection. Through death we have escaped the power of the law. The illustration of marriage was given that is if you spouse dies you are free to marry another. I/we can do many righteous things in our life but our hope should not be in our own righteousness but in GODS grace received by faith in Jesus Christ. A righteousness credited to us by faith. FOR what work can one do that GOD has to repay. ITS all grace.

Amen. That's exactly what Paul was saying also. The Gospel is given to us from faith for faith. Its all of God's work done in us, to produce the work He desires through us - all of faith.

So we cannot say that we can leave the faith, turn away from it, and deny it without denying God's salvation for us. God saves us, but He does not lock us in a salvation cell and throw away the key. He keeps us safe, but He does not force us to obey or to believe.

Salvation does not come from our faith - but through His faith in us.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The fact is that the result of being given eternal life is that th recipient will never perish. That is exactly what Jesus meant. Nothing less."

This is what you think He meant. You have not proven that He meant what you say He does - its only your opinion.

So, just keep us all hanging?? The least you could do is provide an explanation of what you think He meant by His very clear words.

On the other hand, Jesus did say that He gives(not gave) His sheep eternal life - and because He gives(not gave) them life they will never perish. So its quite clear, that if He is no longer giving them life, they will perish.

So, what verse teaches that the giving of eternal life is a continuous process?

In fact, John 5:24 refutes that notion. He is clear that those who believe HAVE (as in possess), NOT (as in are being given) eternal life.

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Please notice that Jesus DIDN'T say "I AM GIVING them eternal life, and AS LONG AS I KEEP GIVING THEM ETERNAL LIFE, they will never perish."

But that seems exactly what you've suggested He meant by what He most certainly DIDN'T say.

We all just need to admit that Jesus said those He gives eternal life to will never perish. That's what He clearly meant.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"The fact is that the result of being given eternal life is that th recipient will never perish. That is exactly what Jesus meant. Nothing less."

So, just keep us all hanging?? The least you could do is provide an explanation of what you think He meant by His very clear words.


So, what verse teaches that the giving of eternal life is a continuous process?

In fact, John 5:24 refutes that notion. He is clear that those who believe HAVE (as in possess), NOT (as in are being given) eternal life.


Please notice that Jesus DIDN'T say "I AM GIVING them eternal life, and AS LONG AS I KEEP GIVING THEM ETERNAL LIFE, they will never perish."

But that seems exactly what you've suggested He meant by what He most certainly DIDN'T say.

We all just need to admit that Jesus said those He gives eternal life to will never perish. That's what He clearly meant.

Like I said, Jesus said He gives them life - not gave His sheep life. If that is not clear, I am not sure what is.

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The ongoing "eternal life" is Christ in us. Unless you do not think that eternal life is ongoing?

But, since we know its ongoing - eternal - life, we know that He continually gives it to us. This life is in God's Son.

 

[Eugene]

Please notice that Jesus DIDN'T say "I AM GIVING them eternal life, and AS LONG AS I KEEP GIVING THEM ETERNAL LIFE, they will never perish."

Does the following scripture come to mind?
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Strong’s - Sealed - to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
As the verb it is, I like the definition “to decide irrevocably: to seal someone's fate.”
Strong’s - Unto - indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc. (Also archaic term for UNTIL)

 

[Chopper]

As a believer who is neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I would like to point out that biblical election has never been about salvation. Ever.

The Bible indicates (at least) 6 categories or types of election, and none are about salvation.
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16

6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

What each of these categories have in common is service, not salvation.

Thoughts?

I expect much more from you FreeGrace I'm not even going to comment on anything further than your opening statement....

As a believer who is neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I would like to point out that biblical election has never been about salvation. Ever.

(color is mine, Chop)

Perhaps because you're not Armenian nor Calvinist, your neutral preconception of what Salvation really is, is marred. Election is Salvation.!! Certainly, you're not serious!

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, I always appreciate a brother who wants to see union and not separation.

I am curious though, you call me out as throwing "SNARKY" remarks out. I would like to know, for my personal edification, which remarks you think are snarky/insulting. I am not saying there could not be any, but sometimes it helps when someone else shows you where the error is. I have looked, but do not find any.

You were not who I was really addressing. But I did pick up this statement of yours that could not question....

I see you left out the passages I posted? So you call something heretical without showing any proof of it. A false accuser does such things. I forgive you Cygnus, but you need to examine your heart.

I have to be careful as well. I'm sure that I've made similar remarks. I'd just like to see more brotherly love, that's all my good friend.

 

[Nathan]

You were not who I was really addressing. But I did pick up this statement of yours that could not question....


I have to be careful as well. I'm sure that I've made similar remarks. I'd just like to see more brotherly love, that's all my good friend.

Sometimes love is letting someone, especially who confesses to be in Christ, know that what they are doing is wrong.

Jas 5:20
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

We should not falsely accuse someone, especially those in the faith. There are ways to disagree with people, but stating for a fact they are wrong when they only oppose your personal opinion, and then stating that they believe in something which they have never professed to believe it - is the work of darkness. Those kinds of things should never be done by people who are in Christ, led by His Spirit.

Pointing people to Christ is our number one priority in this lifetime - and when we do that we are truly walking in love.

 

[Chopper]

Amen Nathan!!