Other Gods/gods?

[proveallthings]

I am concerned that this thread and the OP is a promotion for Mormonism.

The thread is surely contrary to Scripture

Zephaniah 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am [Elohim], and there is none beside me: ​

This thread is also running to the letter and spirit of the First Commandment

Deuteronomy 5: 6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.​

By Grace, you are assuming wrong here. This has nothing to do with promoting Mormonism. I am discussing the meaning of a scripture in the New Testament and that is all I intend this discussion to be about. I said nothing here about worshiping other gods. I am only considering how God loves all people and how He may choose to bless and enlighten them. That is all.

 

[proveallthings]

Permit me to explain further using some things that many may not know about Mormonism

Mormonism is polytheistic at heart, and the opening of the discussion is a back-door establishment of Mormonism to be "just like Christianity". that is why many Mormons want to try to tell you things that "everything that the Bible says about Jesus Christ can be found in the BoM". That is true, as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough.

What they do not tell you is that the jesus christ, which they believe in is a modalistic jesus. He is a human who "obeyed the Father so much", that god the father exalted him into godhood. And just like what happened to jesus, so also being exalted into god hood may happen to "worthy Mormons"

Mormon Research Ministry has a good and accurate article about this HERE. Below is a snippet:.

Although it is not found in any of Mormonism's Standard Works ,[there are %: the KJV Bible, BoM.Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants and the Book of
Abraham] an expression that precisely defines the LDS teaching that men can become Gods was coined by fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow. In June of 1840, Snow declared, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God.
​

So what the poster is attempting to do in this thread, and the thread on deification is to have the camel succeed in getting his nose under the tent during a sand storm. If that is permitted, soon the whole camel will be in the tent, and the Bedouin will not have a place for himself to ride out the sand storm.

So while they may say some things about Jesus Christ, and hijack the Christian meanings to make an entirely different jesus than is in the Bible. The jesus they teach about is a modalistic jesus, and this was soundly condemned bt Tertullian c. 213 and by Dionysius, then Bishop of Rome in 282. (The usage of the term "Pope" is anachronistic here.) The term, "Modalism" means that jesus allegedly had different modes of living. Modalism is also called "Sabellianism, after the originator of the idea, Sabellius.

So now that the background is established, the method used to ensnare the Bible-illiterate Christians is to walk down the primrose lane with the Mormon falsely claiming (in reality a lie) that "Mormons are really no different than Christians". Then the unsuspecting Christian responds with, "Gee I guess that Mormons are just like Christians, and the Mormon missionary then sets the hook as a fisherman does when casting a fly to a hungry trout.

That is why the Christian can NEVER state to any Mormon that any part of Christianity is the same as what Mormons teach. Through the usage of "convertible language" the skilled Mormon apologist will use Christian words to lull the Christian into a stupor, and when the Christian is vulnerable, the Mormon will interject the Mormon meanings into those Christian terms, and the Christian is then placed into a false dilemma, designed for him to renounce Christianity, pray that he gets a "burning bosom" which is supposed to validate the truth of Mormonism.

That is why this thread and the other are "camel noses under the tent of Christianity". Mormons are well-trained in Missionary Training School in Provo Utah, and it is my guess that Prove all Things may be a faculty member due to his demeanor, and traps-laying.

Therefore, the purposes of this post, and the previous is to expose the methodology and the "harmless front" that is produced.

I would have posted this privately to the mods, but I thought that more would see it if I posted it openly.

You sure do like to talk a lot about Mormonism. This thread is not about Mormonism. It is clear to anyone aware of what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches or their methods and motives that your conclusions about such are at best the result of a very active imagination. I have never even been involved with the MTC except to drop off my sons there to start their missions. But I am aware enough of the teaching methods there to know that everything you have imagined about what goes on there is pure fiction.

Why do you assume so much evil about me? If I have offended you in some way, I apologize. I do not believe you are a bad person, but are sincerely doing what you think is right. I assume you are expressing what you believe to be true. I wish you would show me the same courtesy.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

In my opinion John 1 delivers a message in a rather poetic manner that attempts to reveal to its readers the very creative intent or purpose of God as it relates to man's reality. The true light that John's writer says was embodiee/manifested in the form of Jesus, the Christ was one and the same with the LOGOS spoken of in the chapter's 1st verses. All of God's creative plans and goals were achieved with Jesus and Jesus, as God's masterpiece was able to walk among men and shine a previously unseen light into the very heart of God for man to finally see.

 

[turnorburn]

I pondered those same thoughts from a jail cell until the light of Christ blew away the cobwebs..

tob

 

[By Grace]

By Grace, you are assuming wrong here. This has nothing to do with promoting Mormonism.

I will not call you names, and I'll take you at your word. However, you as a Mormon should accept the fact that because you are a member of a polytheistic religion, that your bringing up the non-Biblical concept of more than one god does raise suspicions. I say the same thing for the title you chose; Other Gods/gods?

I am discussing the meaning of a scripture in the New Testament and that is all I intend this discussion to be about.

I said nothing here about worshiping other gods. I am only considering how God loves all people and how He may choose to bless and enlighten them. That is all.

This is the last sentence of your OP: "So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their conscience when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it? "

That last sentence above does mention following the gods Krishna, Allah or Brahma, which, according to Scripture are ALL false.

Zephaniah 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am [Elohim], and there is none beside me:
​

That last sentence on the OP is also a blasphemy against Jesus Christ because the other gods are utterly contrary to the message and teachings of Jesus, and NONE of them did miracles, nor did they drive our demons.

I am discussing the meaning of a scripture in the New Testament and that is all I intend this discussion to be about.

You will notice that you did not cite one Scripture of the New Testament, but gave a vague reference to John 1:4, and took it out of its context. Please see the entire context:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men
​

I'll not dazzle you by citing the Granville Sharp Rule, but I will say that these verses destroy the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression because Jesus was at the beginning (Genesis 1:1) and was fully God. He was also with God (the Father).

It tells us that Jesus is also the Creator. (see Hebrews 1:2) and without Him, nothing could be made

In Jesus is life, and His life is the light of all men

Therefore, your sincere question is one that is impossible to happen if one reads Scripture properly. Also these four verses completely refute the Lorenzo Snow Couplet, which you Mormons are so fond of quoting. "As man is..." So I am laying before you a choice of whom to believe: Is it Lorenzo Snow, or is it the Bible? It cannot be both because it is impossible to reconcile both.

 

[proveallthings]

I will not call you names, and I'll take you at your word. However, you as a Mormon should accept the fact that because you are a member of a polytheistic religion, that your bringing up the non-Biblical concept of more than one god does raise suspicions. I say the same thing for the title you chose; Other Gods/gods?

First of all, Mormonism is not polytheistic in the strict definition of the word. Second, the concept of “other gods” is very much a Biblical concept. The Bible teaches this concept in many places and in multiple ways. Mostly it teaches the people of Israel to not worship or serve them. After all I have said to you in these forums, I would expect you to be aware of the fact that Mormonism does not advocate the worship or serving of any of the false gods the Bible teaches against, so why would I expect you to be suspicious?

This is the last sentence of your OP: "So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their conscience when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it? "

That last sentence above does mention following the gods Krishna, Allah or Brahma, which, according to Scripture are ALL false.

​

That last sentence on the OP is also a blasphemy against Jesus Christ because the other gods are utterly contrary to the message and teachings of Jesus, and NONE of them did miracles, nor did they drive our demons.

First of all, the Bible does not say anything about Krishna, Allah or Brahma. Second, The Bible is speaking directly to Israel and Christians, not to the followers of these other belief systems. Third, mentioning the fact that belief systems exist in today’s world that have different names for what they believe to be God, does not advocate the following after or serving of these gods.

You will notice that you did not cite one Scripture of the New Testament, but gave a vague reference to John 1:4, and took it out of its context. Please see the entire context:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men​

Actually, it was John 1:9. My bad for assuming you were familiar enough with this section of scripture to recognize that. Please forgive me. So, the context you present here does not even include the verse I was referring to.

In reality, my post is suggesting an expanded view of Christ’s influence on the entire human race compared to what you are advocating. It assumes that the God of the Bible is THE only and true God.

​

 

[By Grace]

By Grace said: ↑
I will not call you names, and I'll take you at your word. However, you as a Mormon should accept the fact that because you are a member of a polytheistic religion, that your bringing up the non-Biblical concept of more than one god does raise suspicions. I say the same thing for the title you chose; Other Gods/gods?

First of all, Mormonism is not polytheistic in the strict definition of the word

Because you LDS believe that all worthy Mormons will be "exalted into godhood" you religion is surely polytheistic, and to deny or to obfuscate that is simply not telling the truth, and being deceptive,

Second, the concept of “other gods” is very much a Biblical concept.

No one doubts that other gods were worshipped by heathen peoples, but the example of false religions having false gods does not therefore establish the fact that there ore other gods. That is a logical error called "begging the question" because you are using aberrant religions to extablish the validity of aberrant gods.

Mostly it teaches the people of Israel to not worship or serve them.

AGAIN it does not constitute the acknowledging of any other gods

I would expect you to be aware of the fact that Mormonism does not advocate the worship or serving of any of the false gods the Bible teaches against, so why would I expect you to be suspicious?

Wanna tell us about the planet Kolob, and what happens there?

I will not go further

 

[JCitoL]

We learn in John chapter 1 that in Jesus Christ was life, and that life was the light of men. This light was the true light which LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD. The common term used in the world to describe this light we all share is conscience. I think we all would agree that every person ever to be born on this earth has a conscience. Because of what we learn in John 1, Christians know this is actually the light of Christ. A Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim all have this same conscience or light of Christ, but may know nothing of its source, or call that source by a different name. So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their “conscience†when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it?

the faith in other gods/lords(christs) still carries risks, even for the last two millennia there were many victims of the spiritual iniquity, God is a Spirit and His Kingdom is Spiritual, and the devil is a spirit and its kingdom is also spiritual, and the spiritual is (in) the basis of every thing in the universe, that is why exactly the spiritual iniquity is the original and the very sin, there is only one (true) God - the Father, as well as only one (true) Lord - Jesus Christ, while all other gods and lords are false and they are just faces of the wicked(the manifestation of the "darkness") which is the primary cause and source of all evil things

1 John 5:17-21 "All unrighteousness(viz. all iniquity in the faith) is sin: and there is a sin not unto death(viz. and there is a spiritual iniquity which is ceased). We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not(i.e. we are aware that every believer/spiritual worker who is faithful to the true Lord God does not commit spiritual iniquity); but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not(i.e. and satan cannot use it as a spiritual servant/worker of the unrighteousness). And we know that we are of God, and the whole world(i.e. the whole kingdom of (the) human(666)(i.e. of unrighteous) spirituality/religion) lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true(i.e. That Who is the true God), and we are in him that is true(i.e. and we are in Him - in the true God Father), even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols(i.e. from (the) misbeliefs and (from) (the) false gods/lords). Amen."

Blessings

 

[Free]

Really. How do you know?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Joh 1:9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. (ESV)

Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.(ESV)

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." (ESV)

Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. (ESV)

There is much that can be said about what the "light" is, but clearly not everyone has the light, so it would seem that it could not refer to a person's conscience.

First of all, Mormonism is not polytheistic in the strict definition of the word.

But Mormonism does teach the literal existence of other gods, hence, it is polytheistic. And this over against what the Bible clearly teaches:

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."
Isa 44:9 All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame.
Isa 44:10 Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing?
Isa 44:11 Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together.
Isa 44:12 The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint.
Isa 44:13 The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.
Isa 44:14 He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it.
Isa 44:15 Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it.
Isa 44:16 Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, "Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!"
Isa 44:17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, "Deliver me, for you are my god!"
Isa 44:18 They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.
Isa 44:19 No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, "Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?"
Isa 44:20 He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, "Is there not a lie in my right hand?" (ESV)

This passage makes it very clear that not only is there only one God, but that all the other gods mentioned in the Bible are not gods, they are idols.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
(ESV)

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. (ESV)

And on it goes. The Bible is absolutely clear that there is, was, and ever will be only one God in existence. What we see then is that the Mormon belief that other gods exist, and in particular that one can become a god, is in grave error. It would seem then that Joseph Smith thought he knew more about God than God himself.

Second, the concept of “other gods” is very much a Biblical concept. The Bible teaches this concept in many places and in multiple ways. Mostly it teaches the people of Israel to not worship or serve them. After all I have said to you in these forums, I would expect you to be aware of the fact that Mormonism does not advocate the worship or serving of any of the false gods the Bible teaches against, so why would I expect you to be suspicious?

Again, these "other gods" of the Bible are not gods at all. They are mere idols made by human hands; they have no actual life, no power, no actual existence.

Actually, it was John 1:9. My bad for assuming you were familiar enough with this section of scripture to recognize that. Please forgive me. So, the context you present here does not even include the verse I was referring to.

This is a serous exegetical error on your part. Everything that is said in the first three verses of John setup everything else in the entire book. This is how context works. You want to divorce verse 9 from what was said in the first few verses but if you do that, you will not come to a proper understanding of verse 9. Context is everything, and that includes not only the surrounding verses, but the surrounding chapters and surrounding books, leading to the entirety of Scripture needing to be included.

 

[proveallthings]

Because you LDS believe that all worthy Mormons will be "exalted into godhood" you religion is surely polytheistic, and to deny or to obfuscate that is simply not telling the truth, and being deceptive.

Polytheism is about multiple alternative gods, who compete with one another and especially with the only true God of the Bible for our worship. There is nothing in Mormonism that even comes close to this. Mormonism doesn’t even teach that there are gods that are even worthy of our worship other than the true God of the Bible. Calling Mormonism polytheistic is the deception.

No one doubts that other gods were worshipped by heathen peoples, but the example of false religions having false gods does not therefore establish the fact that there ore other gods. That is a logical error called "begging the question" because you are using aberrant religions to extablish the validity of aberrant gods.
AGAIN it does not constitute the acknowledging of any other gods.

This statement indicates your fundamental misunderstanding of my original post. I never intended to even speculate that there could be other true gods. I was only suggesting the possibility that when people unaware of Christianity do good when following the precepts of their religion, they could actually be following Christ without knowing it.

Wanna tell us about the planet Kolob, and what happens there?

Kolob has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. The only thing we know about Kolob is that it is an important planet in the cosmos and that it is near the throne of God. We have no idea of what, if anything, goes on there.

 

[proveallthings]

the faith in other gods/lords(christs) still carries risks, even for the last two millennia there were many victims of the spiritual iniquity, God is a Spirit and His Kingdom is Spiritual, and the devil is a spirit and its kingdom is also spiritual, and the spiritual is (in) the basis of every thing in the universe, that is why exactly the spiritual iniquity is the original and the very sin, there is only one (true) God - the Father, as well as only one (true) Lord - Jesus Christ, while all other gods and lords are false and they are just faces of the wicked(the manifestation of the "darkness") which is the primary cause and source of all evil things

Pointing out the risks of faith in other gods/lords or christs assumes that I am advocating such risks. I am not, never have and never would. I am not suggesting that any Christian need go outside Christianity to find the teachings of Christ. I am only exploring the attitude of Christians towards those of other faiths who know not Christ.

1 John 5:17-21 "All unrighteousness(viz. all iniquity in the faith) is sin: and there is a sin not unto death(viz. and there is a spiritual iniquity which is ceased). We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not(i.e. we are aware that every believer/spiritual worker who is faithful to the true Lord God does not commit spiritual iniquity); but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not(i.e. and satan cannot use it as a spiritual servant/worker of the unrighteousness). And we know that we are of God, and the whole world(i.e. the whole kingdom of (the) human(666)(i.e. of unrighteous) spirituality/religion) lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true(i.e. That Who is the true God), and we are in him that is true(i.e. and we are in Him - in the true God Father), even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols(i.e. from (the) misbeliefs and (from) (the) false gods/lords). Amen."

Again, my post nowhere suggests that anyone should entertain the false teachings of any faith, group or god. I am only referring to the teachings of others that are in harmony of the teachings of Christ.

 

[proveallthings]

There is much that can be said about what the "light" is, but clearly not everyone has the light, so it would seem that it could not refer to a person's conscience.

Then you need to go back and read verse 9 of John 1, for it clearly states that this light enlightens EVERYONE. The KJV says EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.

But Mormonism does teach the literal existence of other gods, hence, it is polytheistic. And this over against what the Bible clearly teaches:

I am well aware of what the Bible teaches in the verses you quote here. They are in complete agreement with everything that Mormonism teaches. The other gods of polytheism are not similar in any way to the gods acknowledged by Mormonism. As I said in a previous post, “polytheism is about multiple alternative gods, who compete with one another and especially with the only true God of the Bible for our worship. There is nothing in Mormonism that even comes close to this. Mormonism doesn’t even teach that there are gods that are even worthy of our worship other than the true God of the Bible.”

This passage makes it very clear that not only is there only one God, but that all the other gods mentioned in the Bible are not gods, they are idols.

Except, possibly, where Jesus quotes himself from the Old Testament saying to the people that they are gods(John 10:34) and when Paul states the existence of gods many in heaven(1 Cor. 8:5). All these false gods which are mentioned in the verses you quote are not the the same kind of gods referred to in Mormonism. I challenge you to find any authoritative quote from any Mormon leader which advocates any of these false gods of the Bible. And this passage does not say anything about the other references in the Bible mentioning other gods.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. (ESV)
And on it goes. The Bible is absolutely clear that there is, was, and ever will be only one God in existence. What we see then is that the Mormon belief that other gods exist, and in particular that one can become a god, is in grave error. It would seem then that Joseph Smith thought he knew more about God than God himself.

Free, I can read from the Bible the same as you and my study of the same Bible gives me the opinion that you are way off the mark in this matter of what the Bible actually teaches. You are in direct opposition to what the early church fathers taught on this subject in the first few centuries of the Christian era. I have quoted them before in these forums. I will be glad to copy them again here if you would like. To me the Bible clearly teaches that each of us has the potential to eventually become like our Father in the eternities. In fact, as I see it, the Bible teaches that this is the primary goal of this earthly existence. I am not arguing so much for Mormonism here as I am for the Christianity of the first Century. Here are just some of the Bible verses that back me up: Rev. 3:21, Rev. 21:7, Gal. 4:7, 1 Cor. 15:49, Phil. 3:21, 2 Peter 1:4, 2 Cor. 3:18.

I would agree that Joseph Smith thought he knew more about God than you understand about God, but everything that Joseph taught and did only demonstrated that he was very aware of the great distance between what he knew about God and what God knows.

Again, these "other gods" of the Bible are not gods at all. They are mere idols made by human hands; they have no actual life, no power, no actual existence.

And again I agree with you about these “other gods”, but you are not applying such teachings to Mormonism accurately.

This is a serous exegetical error on your part. Everything that is said in the first three verses of John setup everything else in the entire book. This is how context works. You want to divorce verse 9 from what was said in the first few verses but if you do that, you will not come to a proper understanding of verse 9. Context is everything, and that includes not only the surrounding verses, but the surrounding chapters and surrounding books, leading to the entirety of Scripture needing to be included.

Actually, this is serious exegetical error on your part, not mine. I was not saying that the verses quoted did not provide some context for the verse I was quoting from, but by not including the verse I was referring to and the verses immediately surrounding it, you miss the relationship of the first verses with my verse. What you are obviously doing here is a straw man argument. I did not say anything that argued against the importance of context. It was he and not me that divorced verse 9 from the verses he quoted because he did not even include verse 9 or the verses immediately surrounding it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Philippians 2:10-11;

'..that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father".

Is Jesus Lord of your life today?
There is no other way to the Father.
All Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.. are all going to hell.

I plead with you all to repent of your sins and give your life to Jesus today.

Amen!

 

[By Grace]

Polytheism is about multiple alternative gods

Here is a screen grab from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polytheism?s=t


polytheism
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pol·y·the·ism
[pol-ee-thee-iz-uh

m, pol-ee-thee-iz-uh

m] Show IPA
noun
the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.
Origin:
1605–15; poly- + theism; compare French polythéisme

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Collins
World English Dictionary
polytheism (ˈpɒlɪθiːˌɪzəm, ˌpɒlɪˈθiːɪzəm)
— n
the worship of or belief in more than one god
'polytheist
— n
polythe'istic
— adj
polythe'istically
— adv
Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
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polytheism
1613, from Fr. polythéisme (16c.), formed from Gk. polytheos "of many gods," from polys "many" (see poly-) + theos "god" (see Thea). Polytheist first attested 1619.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper


American Heritage
Cultural Dictionary
polytheism definition

The belief in more than one god. The ancient Greeks, for example, were polytheists; their gods included Apollo, Athena, Dionysus, and Zeus. ( Compare monotheism.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Matching Quote
"It must appear impossible, that theism could, from reasoning, have been the primary religion of human race, and have afterwards, by its corruption, given birth to polytheism and to all the various superstitions of the heathen world. Reason, when obvious, prevents these corruptions: When abstruse, it keeps the principles entirely from the knowledge of the vulgar, who are alone liable to corrupt any principle or opinion.
"
-David Hume

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[By Grace]

PART TWO

I find that it is amazing that this source recognizes that Mormonism is polytheistic, but you do not.

who compete with one another and especially with the only true God of the Bible for our worship. There is nothing in Mormonism that even comes close to this. Mormonism doesn’t even teach that there are gods that are even worthy of our worship other than the true God of the Bible. Calling Mormonism polytheistic is the deception.

This is called "begging the question" and is a logical fallacy. What you are doing is providing one definition for "polytheism" that does not exist, and then state that your religion does not fit into the definition that you supplied.

This statement indicates your fundamental misunderstanding of my original post. I never intended to even speculate that there could be other true gods. I was only suggesting the possibility that when people unaware of Christianity do good when following the precepts of their religion, they could actually be following Christ without knowing it.

Sorry, but it is you who first brought up the idea of polytheism in your OP. Do you remember posting this? " So the question is, when a non-Christian(someone who has not yet accepted the New Testament) truly obeys their “conscience” when they are obeying the God they call Krishna, Allah, or Brahma, are they following a false God, or are they actually just following Jesus Christ without knowing it?"

That statement does indicate an equality of different gods.

Kolob has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. The only thing we know about Kolob is that it is an important planet in the cosmos and that it is near the throne of God. We have no idea of what, if anything, goes on there.

Do you recalling reading this from the Book of Abraham, chapter 3?

two facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night.

7 Now the set time of the lesser light is a longer time as to its reckoning than the reckoning of the time of the earth upon which thou standest.

8 And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still;

9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same border as that upon which thou standest.

10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God.

11 Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made…

14 And it was in the night time when the Lord spake these words unto me: I will multiply thee, and thy seed after thee, like unto these; and if thou canst count the cnumber of sands, so shall be the number of thy seeds.

15 And the Lord said unto me: Abraham, I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt, that ye may declare all these words.

16 If atwo things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me...

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.​

Book of Abraham chapter 5:

13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s atime, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

14 And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him.

15 And the Gods caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and they took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof;
​

From this, you can see that bringing up Kolob is germane to the issue of the Mormons believing in polytheism,. that is why I made some things in red, and I also took the verses with their context.

Kolob is the dwelling place for gods, and it is "close to heaven" . There can be no other conclusion that any intelligent reader can gather from these the words from one of your FIVE different"sacred texts"

I surely wish that you did not post things that deny that your Mormon doctrine actually teaches as it does. The reason for that is because it really makes having a good discussion nearly impossible.

 

[turnorburn]

Mormonism is a teaching contrary to Christianity, Isn't there something in the rules about teaching of other faiths?

tob

 

[By Grace]

Mormonism is a teaching contrary to Christianity, Isn't there something in the rules about teaching of other faiths? tob

To avoid that issue, I self reported that as soon as I posted, TOB.

I was dealing with the issue of polytheism in the post, and PAT was denying that Mormonism is polytheistic. Therefore, when I researched, I pleasantly discovered that the dictionary included Mormonism as an example of polytheism, so I used that.

Second, I wanted to find an official source (The Book of Abraham is one of five different "holy books" for Mormons.) which demonstrated unequivocally that Mormonism is indeed polytheistic. My reasoning was that citing "official sources" is not the same thing as "teaching Mormonism" to demonstrate that the facts are contrary to the assertions of someone.

If I offended, I am sorry, but I believe that it is better to demonstrate an error than it is to state on one's own authority, "That is a falsehood, and you are not dealing with others in an honest manner". When the latter is done, it sorta ends communication rather quickly.

 

[Webb]

This is off-topic but I would like to ask Proveallthings if its true that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars?
God bless,
w

 

[Nathanael Chong]

You can obey your conscience and not be a Christian, nor are you following Christ. You are only following Jesus when you accept Him and His teachings. Your conscience has been placed in your spirit by God, but that doesn't determine whether you accept Him.

 

[proveallthings]

This is off-topic but I would like to ask Proveallthings if its true that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars?
God bless,
w

Webb, I want to thank you for bringing some humor into this thread. I read your question to my sick wife and she burst out laughing. It's always nice to laugh a little when you're sick. I couldn't resist laughing out loud either.
Most apostles give up top paying jobs to serve what is like two full time jobs serving the Lord. There is a modest living allowance available from the church, which most of them turn down and live off of their own savings and investments. You have individuals who were major university presidents, state supreme court judges, successful attorneys, world class surgeons and successful business leaders in the mix. All give up successful careers to serve in their positions as apostles until the day they die.