Other gods

[Kane Ali]

Good evening Eugene. I believe what the Bible says regarding the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus. Psalm 83:18 tells us Jehovah is the Most High. Mathew 3:17 reveals who Jesus is in his father's own words, His Son. Jesus says he was sent in Luke 4:18. If he was sent, then the one who sent him must be greater. Also Proverbs 8:22-30 Jesus, describing his prehuman existence, talks about marveling at his father's creative works and being beside him as a master worker. In Luke 22:29 Jesus is speaking to his apostles of the covenant Jehovah made with him. This is in harmony with 1Cor 24-28 showing how Jesus will be king of his father's kingdom until all enemies are placed at his feet. Then Jesus will return the Kingdom to his father so God can be all things to all. So based on what God's Word says, I believe Jehovah is God and Jesus is His son and our savior. Thus I do not believe they are one in the same, for Jesus is compared to Adam in 1Cor 15:45. Thus since Adam was a man, then Jesus was a man who had a prehuman heavenly existence before he was sent.
I hope I have reasoned based on not my thoughts but what the Bible actually teaches.

Would you also say that Jesus is Jehovah? Thanks.

 

[Free]

Would you also say that Jesus is Jehovah? Thanks.

Perhaps it should be also stated that 'Jehovah' is not actually God's name. As you know, it is given as YHWH or YHVH in the Hebrew.

 

[Kane Ali]

Indeed you are correct concerning the Tetragrammaton. Yet since there were no vowels, no one really knows exactly how to pronounce the divine name. Hebrews and Jews say Yahweh as they call Jesus Yeshuah or Yehoshuah. Yet we call Yeshuah Jesus becosue it's the english translation of the name. Similar to Jehovah being the English translation of Yahweh. Yet Yahweh is pronounced in many different ways in other dialects. For instance, the divine name in the language Choctaw is Chihowa. In Dakota is Jehowa. In Douala its Yehowa. In Hawaiian its Iehova. So though no one knows the exact pronunciation, that should not stop us from using the established English version of the divine name.
I have a bible student who is a Messianic Jew. He refuses to say Jesus Christ. So when we have our studies, I use Yeshuah or Messiah. They believe in Jesus, yet they do not want to use the Greek form of his name. It's totally fine with me, as long as he understands God's Kingdom then I have done my job.
Great questions btw.
Thanks.

 

[Eugene]

Would you also say that Jesus is Jehovah? Thanks.

Jesus is His son and our savior. Thus I do not believe they are one in the same, for Jesus is compared to Adam in 1Cor 15:45. Thus since Adam was a man, then Jesus was a man who had a prehuman heavenly existence before he was sent.

Thanks for your reply, and I'd like to ask another question before reply to what you have said above,
Do you consider Jesus to be our Saviour? 2 Pet 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
You make mention of Jesus being a man like Adam, but have you considered Jesus being equal with God in
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 

[Kane Ali]

I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. For He saves us from what Adam gave us, sin and death. In the Scripture you sided Php 2:6,7 relates Jesus being in the same form of God yet not equal. the same form as in the type of creatures in Heaven are spirit. Yet every one in Heaven is not equal to God but a part of His creation. If you examine the context of Paul's writing in these scriptures, Paul was telling the Phillipians to keep the same mental attitude among themselves as Christ kept with his Father. Philippians 2:1-11. Apparently egotism was permeating the congregation in Philippi. Paul gave the best example possible with Jesus as it relates to his Father. Though he existed in God's form, he did not consider himself to be equal to God. Because of Jesus humility and obedience, God exalted him to a superior position. If Jesus was in fact promoted, then the one promoting him must be greater. We must be mindful of the entire context of God's Word in order to make a sound defense.

 

[Eugene]

In the Scripture you sided Php 2:6,7 relates Jesus being in the same form of God yet not equal.

Huh? Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

In that case would you reconsider the fact that Jesus said that He was Jehovah? You said John the Baptist made the way for Jesus I think it was, and we read in the following scripture "Prepare ye the way of the LORD." The transliterated word LORD is the word Jehovah.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[Kane Ali]

Good evening Eugene, I believe using the Reference Bible or American Standard Version will offer more insight to what the true meaning of "thought it not robbery to be equal to god" really means. For instance, the Reference Bible renders the same scripture this way: "Who although existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely that he should be equal to God." In this version a seizure would suggest equality with God. therefore, if Jesus gave no thought to a seizure then he humbly submits to God as superior than himself.
the American Standard Version renders the account in this manner: " Who, existing in the form of God, counted not being on equality with God a thing to be grasped." This version suggest it is unthinkable for anyone including himself to be equal to God.
I mentioned in an earlier post that I use several Bible translations simply for instances such as this. Some translations render the actual scriptural meaning better for us to understand in the modern day and dialect. To answer your question directly, I have found no where in any version or translation of the Bible where Jesus says he is Jehovah. I believe my earlier posts outlines scripturally the following:
1. Who God says He is. Psalm 83:18
2. Who God says Jesus is. Matthew 3:17
3. Who Jesus says he is. All of John 17 (prayer from Jesus to Jehovah)
4. Who the scriptures say Jesus is John 3:16.
5. Jehovah gave His Kingdom to Jesus based on a covenant with him. Luke 22:29
6. Jesus will turn that Kingdom back to Jehovah after Jehovah vanquishes all his enemies 1Cor 15:25
Understand that there are places in the bible where Lord is referring to Jesus and LORD is referring to Jehovah. I certainly understand how this could confuse many. Yet both words are rendered using different Hebrew words denoting they are not one and the same.
At the end of the day, I fully understand your belief and I am not here to change it. I am simply here to offer answers to those with questions. All answers I give will come from the scriptures and not my own originality.

 

[reba]

Hey guys you are posting in the foyer ...

 

[Eugene]

there are places in the bible where Lord is referring to Jesus and LORD is referring to Jehovah. I certainly understand how this could confuse many. Yet both words are rendered using different Hebrew words denoting they are not one and the same.

Psa 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH (Hebrew word 3068), art the most high over all the earth.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD (Hebrew word 3068); and beside me there is no saviour.

The American Standard I searched Psa 83:18 ASV and ISA 43:11 ASV both use the word LORD ???

The KJV translates Strongs H3068 in the following manner:LORD (6,510x),GOD (4x), JEHOVAH (4x)
Strong's Number H3068 matches the Hebrew יְהֹוָה (Yĕhovah),

 

[sparrow]

Yes there are gods. Some mere idols, some fallen spirits.

As to Kane Ali... I will leave your interesting misconceptions to Eugene.

 

[rat19]

Well there are alot of good answers here and I'm brand new, but I am just gona add what I have to say.
There are many different spirits, and many different false Gods, but there is only one true monotheistic God. That is the God our mind has to be focused on, anything else gets you mentally off track and will lead you down a path to destruction if you don't correct it. And I have plenty of experience in this direction as I'm sure many here do, and we see it everywhere in society also.

 

[Eugene]

.
Welcome Brother rat19 in Jesus' name. It's a pleasure to have you become a part of this Christian fellowship.

 

[rat19]

Thank you Eugene, same to you. Glad to be here.

 

[JPPT1974]

Glad you are here too!

 

[Edward]

This is an important topic. We Christian's have to be careful about this...

My understanding is that anything that we put above Jesus is having an idol. It can even be done"accidentally", like video games, the Bible, and so forth.

 

[brother Paul]

There is another sense in which the term "gods" is used. It is used (even in the Bible) to refer to persons. Now the Hebrew word in question is “elohim”. This word, though it is used for the Creator in Genesis, which most of you know, is not actually a name, nor is it a word that only describes the one and only God (like YHVH). In ancient Semitic languages, even Canaanite dialects, elohim is somewhat of a generic title. In some Mesopotamian pantheons there are many el’s. Abraham called the Lord our God, El-Shaddai, or God Almighty, in order to indicate that He was the only real, as well as the most powerful, God. He referred to Him as El-Elyon to refer to His being the Most High El, again a reference to His being the only true God, the Creator of the Universe and all it contains including all the other els. Elohim, as it is used for God, is in itself the plural of the title “Eloah” and indicates, as we Christians and some of the early Rabbis would understand it, the tri-une nature of the one God, or for us, the one God in three persons, but for others, like the above mentioned Jewish people, it refers to a plurality of majesties or attributes of the one God. For yet others it represents a plethora of god-like beings, including angels, of whom YHVH is supreme Sovereign, therefore in Job the angels are called beni-Elohim, or sons of God.


The root of the word however contains the idea of great strength or power to effect, and therefore was always used to refer as well to those persons who held offices that were allegedly instituted by or empowered by God (YHVH), or the gods, i.e., Kings, Princes, Judges, Priests, Prophets, Magistrates, etc., who it was assumed received their authority ultimately from the one God, or the many gods depending on your cultural perspective. These individuals or groups, like God, had the power to affect your life, sometimes even to the point of whether or not you get to keep it!!! You can learn more about this aspect of the term from most good Commentaries or Bible Dictionaries (See either Matthew Henry’s, Adam Clarke’s, or Jameison Fausset Brown’s, Bible Commentary, and a very good, low priced Bible Dictionary is, Smith’s Bible Dictionary, Jove Publications Inc., N.Y., 1977).

So when Jesus asks "Is it not written I say ye are gods?" He is not saying they are eternal deity but they have authority and power appointed them from YHVH even though some had abused this power.

 

[JPPT1974]

God is the God of all Gods who sent Jesus to come into the world to be born and to die and rise and give us salvation. And eternal life so that we would not have to die for our own sins. As sinners and Jesus who knew no sin, took our place.

 

[brother Paul]

Good evening Eugene. I believe what the Bible says regarding the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus. Psalm 83:18 tells us Jehovah is the Most High. Mathew 3:17 reveals who Jesus is in his father's own words, His Son. Jesus says he was sent in Luke 4:18. If he was sent, then the one who sent him must be greater. Also Proverbs 8:22-30 Jesus, describing his prehuman existence, talks about marveling at his father's creative works and being beside him as a master worker. In Luke 22:29 Jesus is speaking to his apostles of the covenant Jehovah made with him. This is in harmony with 1Cor 24-28 showing how Jesus will be king of his father's kingdom until all enemies are placed at his feet. Then Jesus will return the Kingdom to his father so God can be all things to all. So based on what God's Word says, I believe Jehovah is God and Jesus is His son and our savior. Thus I do not believe they are one in the same, for Jesus is compared to Adam in 1Cor 15:45. Thus since Adam was a man, then Jesus was a man who had a prehuman heavenly existence before he was sent.
I hope I have reasoned based on not my thoughts but what the Bible actually teaches.

Actually Kane, Philippians reveals He thought it NOT robbery to be equal with God. You see some people think and believe the only real God is the Father but that is not what is said here. Take for example Exodus 3. The Angel (not an angel) of the LORD (Malak-YHVH) is speaking to Moses from in the burning bush and though no one has ever seen the Father, Moses sees this “Angel of the LORD” (who is called elsewhere the Angel of His presence). It is said in many places that “the LORD” (YHVH) appeared to someone or other and that they saw Him and spoke with or listened to Him.

Now since this YHVH who they see cannot be the Father who then is it? Back in Exodus 3 the Angel of the LORD reveals to Moses who He is…He tells Moses when he asks, that He IS the God of his fathers, the very I AM (which in Hebrew is literally “He who is”)! This the Angel of the LORD IS YHVH )but manifest). The 1st and 2nd century Targumim all refer to when YHVH appears (manifest) as “the Word” of God (refer to John 1:1) who to them is a manifestation of YHVH, and IS YHVH. He is referred to as sent from YHVH yet IS YHVH (Isa. 16:48; Zech. 2:10,11).

So God is YHVH, and YHVH (the very same one and only God) IS the Father (un-manifest), and IS the Word/Son (manifest), and IS the Spirit (also manifests God to humankind). Therefore it is incorrect to think of YHVH as only the Father. The one YHVH has revealed Himself in and as the Word/Son and we experience Him as the Holy Spirit.

Finally, though it is true there is no accurate correct pronunciation for “YHVH” we know the first syllable is “Yah” and because He revealed Himself as “I Am” (He who is) He has been referred to as Yah’hoveh (the LORD who is) from which eventually we got Jehovah. The Father is YHVH not seen and not heard. The Word/Son is YHVH seen and heard. The Spirit is YHVH heard and experienced.

 

[jaybird]

8 Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” 10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

what was the "secret arts" of the Egyptian priest? what was the source of this power?

 

[Free]

8 Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” 10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

what was the "secret arts" of the Egyptian priest? what was the source of this power?

There are only two sources of such power: God and Satan. The Egyptian sorcerers used demonic power to do what they did. God showed he was superior by having Aaron's staff swallow the others.