Other gods

[smaller]

You clearly haven't understood very much of what I and others have been saying. Your position goes against Scripture,

I cited the facts of god/gods from scripture. It has nothing to do with "my position."

The only sad part is that you can't even fess up to a couple of simple scriptural facts and insist on playing this stupid game by insulting people's intelligence. I CAN read.

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Free]

I cited the facts of god/gods from scripture. It has nothing to do with "my position."

The only sad part is that you can't even fess up to a couple of simple scriptural facts and insist on playing this stupid game by insulting people's intelligence. I CAN read.

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

On the contrary, anyone that reads this thread can plainly see that such passages have indeed been addressed, either those or similar, but that you have not even attempted to address the ones I have given. I am taking all that Scripture has to say on the matter, whereas you are utterly ignoring the ones that don't fit with your theology.

I would be willing to address those passages, as they are perfectly consistent with what I have been saying, but you only want to argue to what I have said while ignoring the very reasons for what I have said, namely, several passages of Scripture. You want me to do what you are unwilling to do yourself. Let me know when you want to have a proper and civil discussion by addressing the evidence I have given.

 

[smaller]

On the contrary, anyone that reads this thread can plainly see that such passages have indeed been addressed, either those or similar,

I read through several pages worth of your bullying with jaybird over the "god/gods" subject with these as your primary insistence:

-"Gods" refers to these idols which have "no real existence" and hence are "so-called gods". Indeed, even God himself says there are no other gods:
-All other so-called gods are those of made of human hands that have no life and no inherent power.

The above are false statements when compared to John 10:34 and 2 Cor. 4:4 as comparative examples which you've avoided addressing like the plague.

When God says there are no other GODS it is no other GODS, NOT no other god/gods.

In your post, #51, it even appears that the term God, with a capital G in some of the links to scripture were changed to little g god/gods in your citing of those same scriptures.

You also say therein that Paul is saying this in 1 Cor. 8:4-5

Paul calls them "so-called gods" because they are not real gods, they have no power other than what man confers on them.

Paul doesn't say anything of the sort and in fact says the exact opposite:

1 Cor 8:
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

I don't know what kinds of stunts you think you're pulling. Fact checks show somethings fishy on your end. Paul says flat out there are gods, many.

but that you have not even attempted to address the ones I have given.

Likewise,

with the footnote that I'm NOT denying there are false i.e. non-existing/imaginary god/gods and idols that are false non-existing god/gods depicted in the scriptures, but those are not the only god/gods scriptures we're engaged with in scriptures.

I am taking all that Scripture has to say on the matter, whereas you are utterly ignoring the ones that don't fit with your theology.

False. You've completely avoided engaging either your false statements OR the facts from N.T. scripture showing your claims false.

I would be willing to address those passages, as they are perfectly consistent with what I have been saying,

No, the scriptures are saying quite differently than your claims, as noted above.

but you only want to argue

No, I am pointing out factually false claims from you compared to scriptures claims by comparison. Nothing more than that.

to what I have said while ignoring the very reasons for what I have said, namely, several passages of Scripture. You want me to do what you are unwilling to do yourself. Let me know when you want to have a proper and civil discussion by addressing the evidence I have given.

I've asked you no less than what by now? A HALF A DOZEN times to say whether the "gods" in John 10:34 and the "god" in 2 Cor. 4:4 are REAL or NOT, a simple YES or NO being entirely sufficient to settle the question,

and here we are still playing this stupid game from your end.

Yes, the term little g god, seldom applied that way to big G God can apply to big G God. But that does NOT mean little g god/gods are presented in scriptures as BIG G GOD. Which was another of your false claims, here:

It is irrelevant as to whether translations use "god" or "God"

The point being that "god/gods" do not mean only big G God.

And yes, there is more of course, which I was trying to spare having to address by the simple yes/no exercise above, but here for example you make this claim:

There are many "gods," no one in here would deny that, but as has been stated several times, they can be anything--money, sex, power, fame, animals, trees, oneself, another person, etc., etc., etc.; anything material or immaterial, manmade or created. These are "so-called gods" (Paul's words; see also 2 Th. 2:4), because they are not living, breathing gods

Again, simply wrong. Of course they are living in those cases.

When the scripture applies the term "god/gods" it does (always) not mean GOD.

And what this means is exactly as you note, but then for some odd reason try to simultaneously deny:

There are many "gods," no one in here would deny that

but in circular and quite contradictory fashion, you end with this:

they are not living, breathing gods

That's called DOUBLE DEALING, claiming two opposing things!

Uh, yes, they are god/gods and there are REAL god/gods. That's the point. Because they are termed god/gods by scripture and yes in some cases where the SCRIPTURES say they are god/gods, they are god/gods that are REAL such as in John 10:34, 2 Cor. 4:4 where that 'god' does have blinding power. Paul's statement of fact from 1 Cor. 8:4-5 that there ARE gods and also 'so called' gods. One statement does not eliminate the other. To some, their god/gods are so called (falsely) GOD.

But no, they are not, in any cases, Thee One and Only GOD.

Your claim here however is NOT anywhere close to accurate:

As I stated, there are no other living, breathing Gods or gods, period. That is what Isaiah, among others, makes clear.

And that is false.

The scriptures themselves DO apply the terms god/gods to these entities/things that are NOT God but are REAL:

Definition:

1. (plural)
   1. rulers, judges
   2. divine ones
   3. angels
   4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
   1. god, goddess
   2. godlike one
   3. works or special possessions of God
   4. the (true) God
   5. God

And we can't say NONE of the above are REAL because that is NOT TRUE.

We can say they are not GOD.

To say there are other gods is polytheism (or henotheism or monolatry) not Christianity.

Scriptures apply the term "god/gods." So, yes, there are such according to scriptures. Your claims are the false/inaccurate ones. You are making a false equation, saying if there are other "god/gods" which there obviously ARE by scriptures conveyance, it is polytheism. NO, it's not. It's one God and other 'god/gods' that are not GOD. It has nothing to do with polytheism GODS.

Christianity has ONE GOD. It does not discount the fact that there are god/gods because they are written of in scriptures and they are real in some cases of applications.

The main reason I even draw this out is that Satan, the 'god of this world' is REAL, 2 Cor. 4:4, the prince of the power of the air does have the powers of disobedience, Eph. 2:2, of blinding, Romans 11:8, of theft, Mark 4:15, of deception Gen. 3:13, 2 Cor. 11:3, of temptations, 1 Thes. 3:5, of darkness, Acts 26:18, of death and destruction, John 10:10 and I could go on here at length about a very real "god" with very real "powers" QUITE CONTRARY to all of your claims otherwise.

 

[jaybird]

Now that is the false dilemma fallacy (smaller ). At least one other option is that your definition and understanding of "god" does not match up with the Bible's use of the word, and several of us have shown that to be the case.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I read through several pages worth of your bullying with jaybird over the "god/gods" subject with these as your primary insistence:


The above are false statements when compared to John 10:34 and 2 Cor. 4:4 as comparative examples which you've avoided addressing like the plague.

When God says there are no other GODS it is no other GODS, NOT no other god/gods.

In your post, #51, it even appears that the term God, with a capital G in some of the links to scripture were changed to little g god/gods in your citing of those same scriptures.

You also say therein that Paul is saying this in 1 Cor. 8:4-5



Paul doesn't say anything of the sort and in fact says the exact opposite:

1 Cor 8:
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

I don't know what kinds of stunts you think you're pulling. Fact checks show somethings fishy on your end. Paul says flat out there are gods, many.


Likewise,

with the footnote that I'm NOT denying there are false i.e. non-existing/imaginary god/gods and idols that are false non-existing god/gods depicted in the scriptures, but those are not the only god/gods scriptures we're engaged with in scriptures.


False. You've completely avoided engaging either your false statements OR the facts from N.T. scripture showing your claims false.


No, the scriptures are saying quite differently than your claims, as noted above.


No, I am pointing out factually false claims from you compared to scriptures claims by comparison. Nothing more than that.



I've asked you no less than what by now? A HALF A DOZEN times to say whether the "gods" in John 10:34 and the "god" in 2 Cor. 4:4 are REAL or NOT, a simple YES or NO being entirely sufficient to settle the question,

and here we are still playing this stupid game from your end.

Yes, the term little g god, seldom applied that way to big G God can apply to big G God. But that does NOT mean little g god/gods are presented in scriptures as BIG G GOD. Which was another of your false claims, here:



The point being that "god/gods" do not mean only big G God.

And yes, there is more of course, which I was trying to spare having to address by the simple yes/no exercise above, but here for example you make this claim:



Again, simply wrong. Of course they are living in those cases.

When the scripture applies the term "god/gods" it does (always) not mean GOD.

And what this means is exactly as you note, but then for some odd reason try to simultaneously deny:



but in circular and quite contradictory fashion, you end with this:



That's called DOUBLE DEALING, claiming two opposing things!

Uh, yes, they are god/gods and there are REAL god/gods. That's the point. Because they are termed god/gods by scripture and yes in some cases where the SCRIPTURES say they are god/gods, they are god/gods that are REAL such as in John 10:34, 2 Cor. 4:4 where that 'god' does have blinding power. Paul's statement of fact from 1 Cor. 8:4-5 that there ARE gods and also 'so called' gods. One statement does not eliminate the other. To some, their god/gods are so called (falsely) GOD.

But no, they are not, in any cases, Thee One and Only GOD.

Your claim here however is NOT anywhere close to accurate:



And that is false.

The scriptures themselves DO apply the terms god/gods to these entities/things that are NOT God but are REAL:

Definition:

1. (plural)
   1. rulers, judges
   2. divine ones
   3. angels
   4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
   1. god, goddess
   2. godlike one
   3. works or special possessions of God
   4. the (true) God
   5. God

And we can't say NONE of the above are REAL because that is NOT TRUE.

We can say they are not GOD.



Scriptures apply the term "god/gods." So, yes, there are such according to scriptures. Your claims are the false/inaccurate ones. You are making a false equation, saying if there are other "god/gods" which there obviously ARE by scriptures conveyance, it is polytheism. NO, it's not. It's one God and other 'god/gods' that are not GOD. It has nothing to do with polytheism GODS.

Christianity has ONE GOD. It does not discount the fact that there are god/gods because they are written of in scriptures and they are real in some cases of applications.

The main reason I even draw this out is that Satan, the 'god of this world' is REAL, 2 Cor. 4:4, the prince of the power of the air does have the powers of disobedience, Eph. 2:2, of blinding, Romans 11:8, of theft, Mark 4:15, of deception Gen. 3:13, 2 Cor. 11:3, of temptations, 1 Thes. 3:5, of darkness, Acts 26:18, of death and destruction, John 10:10 and I could go on here at length about a very real "god" with very real "powers" QUITE CONTRARY to all of your claims otherwise.

OK simple question.....who made these "gods".

 

[smaller]

OK simple question.....who made these "gods".

Simple answer: Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein,

 

[Free]

I read through several pages worth of your bullying with jaybird over the "god/gods" subject with these as your primary insistence:


The above are false statements when compared to John 10:34 and 2 Cor. 4:4 as comparative examples which you've avoided addressing like the plague.

When God says there are no other GODS it is no other GODS, NOT no other god/gods.

In your post, #51, it even appears that the term God, with a capital G in some of the links to scripture were changed to little g god/gods in your citing of those same scriptures.

You also say therein that Paul is saying this in 1 Cor. 8:4-5



Paul doesn't say anything of the sort and in fact says the exact opposite:

1 Cor 8:
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

I don't know what kinds of stunts you think you're pulling. Fact checks show somethings fishy on your end. Paul says flat out there are gods, many.


Likewise,

with the footnote that I'm NOT denying there are false i.e. non-existing/imaginary god/gods and idols that are false non-existing god/gods depicted in the scriptures, but those are not the only god/gods scriptures we're engaged with in scriptures.


False. You've completely avoided engaging either your false statements OR the facts from N.T. scripture showing your claims false.


No, the scriptures are saying quite differently than your claims, as noted above.


No, I am pointing out factually false claims from you compared to scriptures claims by comparison. Nothing more than that.



I've asked you no less than what by now? A HALF A DOZEN times to say whether the "gods" in John 10:34 and the "god" in 2 Cor. 4:4 are REAL or NOT, a simple YES or NO being entirely sufficient to settle the question,

and here we are still playing this stupid game from your end.

Yes, the term little g god, seldom applied that way to big G God can apply to big G God. But that does NOT mean little g god/gods are presented in scriptures as BIG G GOD. Which was another of your false claims, here:



The point being that "god/gods" do not mean only big G God.

And yes, there is more of course, which I was trying to spare having to address by the simple yes/no exercise above, but here for example you make this claim:



Again, simply wrong. Of course they are living in those cases.

When the scripture applies the term "god/gods" it does (always) not mean GOD.

And what this means is exactly as you note, but then for some odd reason try to simultaneously deny:



but in circular and quite contradictory fashion, you end with this:



That's called DOUBLE DEALING, claiming two opposing things!

Uh, yes, they are god/gods and there are REAL god/gods. That's the point. Because they are termed god/gods by scripture and yes in some cases where the SCRIPTURES say they are god/gods, they are god/gods that are REAL such as in John 10:34, 2 Cor. 4:4 where that 'god' does have blinding power. Paul's statement of fact from 1 Cor. 8:4-5 that there ARE gods and also 'so called' gods. One statement does not eliminate the other. To some, their god/gods are so called (falsely) GOD.

But no, they are not, in any cases, Thee One and Only GOD.

Your claim here however is NOT anywhere close to accurate:



And that is false.

The scriptures themselves DO apply the terms god/gods to these entities/things that are NOT God but are REAL:

Definition:

1. (plural)
   1. rulers, judges
   2. divine ones
   3. angels
   4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
   1. god, goddess
   2. godlike one
   3. works or special possessions of God
   4. the (true) God
   5. God

And we can't say NONE of the above are REAL because that is NOT TRUE.

We can say they are not GOD.



Scriptures apply the term "god/gods." So, yes, there are such according to scriptures. Your claims are the false/inaccurate ones. You are making a false equation, saying if there are other "god/gods" which there obviously ARE by scriptures conveyance, it is polytheism. NO, it's not. It's one God and other 'god/gods' that are not GOD. It has nothing to do with polytheism GODS.

Christianity has ONE GOD. It does not discount the fact that there are god/gods because they are written of in scriptures and they are real in some cases of applications.

The main reason I even draw this out is that Satan, the 'god of this world' is REAL, 2 Cor. 4:4, the prince of the power of the air does have the powers of disobedience, Eph. 2:2, of blinding, Romans 11:8, of theft, Mark 4:15, of deception Gen. 3:13, 2 Cor. 11:3, of temptations, 1 Thes. 3:5, of darkness, Acts 26:18, of death and destruction, John 10:10 and I could go on here at length about a very real "god" with very real "powers" QUITE CONTRARY to all of your claims otherwise.

I am not going to discuss this any longer with you until you can show that you can discuss things in a Christian way.

 

[Free]

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (ESV)

How do you make sense of both of these verses?

 

[smaller]

I am not going to discuss this any longer with you until you can show that you can discuss things in a Christian way.

Obviously I've provided specifics to engage. Your refusal to engage does not equate to me not being christian. I don't care for your cheap shot style.

 

[jaybird]

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (ESV)

How do you make sense of both of these verses?

i cant make sense of it, im not the final authority. i dont think its wise to pick one and ignore the other. there are a few passages that suggest their are no others like the one above but far more that suggest their are other gods. i think it has to do with no other Most High. there is a difference between Him and gods. here is that same passage from the DSS.
Dt scroll, 1Q5
39 “See now that I myself am he.
There is no god with me.
I kill and I make alive.
I wound and I heal.
There is no one who can deliver out of my hand.

 

[Free]

i cant make sense of it, im not the final authority.

Who or what is the final authority? Why do you think you need to be the final authority in order to make sense of the two passages?

We must make sense of both. We see this sort of thing all throughout Scripture--such as with the deity of Jesus--and we are commanded to study all of it, learn all of it, make sense of all of it, and apply all of it. One does not need to be a "final authority" in order to understand.

i dont think its wise to pick one and ignore the other.

But that is precisely what you have been doing. That is the whole point of this discussion we've been having. You are ignoring the clear passages in which God himself says he knows of no other god, in favour of the ones that speak of gods. That is exactly why you posted Deut. 10:17 and why I posted Deut. 32:39.

Any understanding of what the Bible says about "God" and "gods" must include such passages as I have given. My whole point has been to show you just how to make sense of it. Yours and smaller's position necessarily excludes such passages and therefore cannot make sense of them.

there are a few passages that suggest their are no others like the one above but far more that suggest their are other gods.

The number of passages in support of one position versus the number of passages in support of another position is utterly irrelevant. This is not a numbers game, where the understanding with the most verses that support it wins. We must take all that the Bible says about a given subject and strive to make sense of it all.

i think it has to do with no other Most High. there is a difference between Him and gods.

Of course there is a difference, we are in agreement there. You "think it has to do with no other Most High," but why do you think that? What is your support? And even if you believe that is all it has to do with, what makes you think that means there are other actual, living, breathing, beings that are divine in nature?

here is that same passage from the DSS.
Dt scroll, 1Q5
39 “See now that I myself am he.
There is no god with me.
I kill and I make alive.
I wound and I heal.
There is no one who can deliver out of my hand.

Never heard of the DSS, but it says essentially the same thing.

 

[jaybird]

Who or what is the final authority? Why do you think you need to be the final authority in order to make sense of the two passages?
We must make sense of both. We see this sort of thing all throughout Scripture--such as with the deity of Jesus--and we are commanded to study all of it, learn all of it, make sense of all of it, and apply all of it. One does not need to be a "final authority" in order to understand.

this only means that anything i say is only my opinion and these are the teachings i base my opinion on. i seen many throw their opinion out there followed by phrases "your not disagreeing with me your disagreeing with the bible or Jesus" i try not to use language like that

But that is precisely what you have been doing. That is the whole point of this discussion we've been having. You are ignoring the clear passages in which God himself says he knows of no other god, in favour of the ones that speak of gods. That is exactly why you posted Deut. 10:17 and why I posted Deut. 32:39.

if i missed a point you thought was important remind me and i will address it. these responses between all of us get divided up on all the little points and sometimes things get missed.

Any understanding of what the Bible says about "God" and "gods" must include such passages as I have given. My whole point has been to show you just how to make sense of it. Yours and smaller's position necessarily excludes such passages and therefore cannot make sense of them.

i agree, all passages should be understood and not cherry picked.

The number of passages in support of one position versus the number of passages in support of another position is utterly irrelevant. This is not a numbers game, where the understanding with the most verses that support it wins. We must take all that the Bible says about a given subject and strive to make sense of it all.

i didnt mean to suggest it was a numbers game, i was meaning we have many passages to study and compare.

Of course there is a difference, we are in agreement there. You "think it has to do with no other Most High," but why do you think that? What is your support? And even if you believe that is all it has to do with, what makes you think that means there are other actual, living, breathing, beings that are divine in nature?

Never heard of the DSS, but it says essentially the same thing.

i think it has to do with the ancient people and how they understood gods. the egyptians believed (most egyptians but not all of them) their group of gods were above all things, created all things. they were lied to by these gods and this is why those gods were judged in the divine council.
divine in nature would be a heavenly being such as angels. whats your definition of divine in nature?
DSS is dead sea scrolls.
i think it says different
There is no god with me
not
no other gods exist other than Me
the Most High operates on His own authority not on a council of gods where they have to be in agreement such as the Egyptians, Babylonians and Greeks.

 

[Mike]

Okay. I've seen enough accusations with fingers pointed in both directions. I'm giving this hot box a chance to cool off. The description of the Lounge Forum suggests that this is a place for casual conversations. I'd not be happy seeing this discourse in the A&T Forum, but at least that one is set up for debate.

For the sake of keeping the peace, I want to note that I did not see the statement that someone isn't a Christian. It is a bit of a pet peeve of mine when someone comments on the way someone is behaving, and that person claims they said they were not a Christian. There is a world of difference in those two comments.