Paganism...

[Mike]

[quote="Ed the Ned":3p85h9rm]The CHOICE IS YOURS! THAT WAS GODS DECISION! HE WANTS YOU TO BE SAVED, THAT IS GODS DESIRE!

Then why does his predetermined plan include sending people to Hell? Why would he create us if he knew we were going to burn?[/quote:3p85h9rm]

This is assuming predestination (Calvinism) which I don't agree with. I believe He foreknew what we would choose, but He didn't decide what we would choose.

Yeah to add to demented cookies question-If he WANTS us to be saved, would he not save as at the end no matter what? If God forgives our sins in this life, would he not forgive our sins in the next life too? As long as you dont actively speak out against God or the Holy Spirit, and as long as you're a decent person, I don't see why he wouldn't forgive us, no matter what, in the life to come. Maybe im missing something here? Enlighten me...

Please see my signature verse in regards to this. His creation, His ways, His rules. If He gives us the choice to accept His reconciliation for our sins. Our choice is our choice.

Forgive me, but what do you mean by Universal Reconciliation?

I would have said the same thing, and if you asked me what I meant, I would say the "all roads lead to God and heaven" line of thinking. Scripture makes it clear that this is not so.

 

[seekandlisten]

I would have said the same thing, and if you asked me what I meant, I would say the "all roads lead to God and heaven" line of thinking. Scripture makes it clear that this is not so.

I would tend to disagree but more on the 'destination' of the 'road' one chooses to travel. This could also go with what the philosopher Philo said when he put it this way, 'Those who give hoping to be rewarded with honor are not giving they are bargaining.' If the 'road' you choose is simply to 'save yourself' and be rewarded with a better life your motives may come into question. If you are truly seeking 'God', and only 'God' could know this, then who am I to tell you to get off your road and onto mine??

cheers

 

[Mike]

seekandlisten, first I would say that in rejecting the "all roads" thing, this is coming from a Christian perspective. You may not agree, but can you see where we get that from the revelation we've been given? The last time we were engaged in a thread a few weeks ago, you were saying how you've come to the point of stopping just short of pronouncing yourself an atheist. So, from your perspective, no roads will lead to Him.

It sounds like your belief system has gone through a number of transformations.

If it were only that we choose our faith to be rewarded by Heaven, I could understand your point. But we are called, we respond. I have a choice, yet I have nothing within me that can reject my faith.

 

[Nick]

UR, from Wikipedia:

Universal reconciliation, also called universal salvation or sometimes simply universalism, is the belief that all people will at some point receive salvation, because of the love and mercy of God.

This is the main belief that distinguishes Christian Universalism from other forms of Christianity. Universal reconciliation states that every person will eventually experience salvation. Most forms of the doctrine assert that the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the mechanism that provides reconciliation for all humankind and atonement for all sins. This concept is distinct from Unitarian Universalism, which is a syncretic religion that does not attribute particular properties such as salvation to Jesus.

Universal reconciliation is intimately related with the Problem of Hell. There are various beliefs and views concerning the process or state of salvation, but all universalists conclude that it ultimately ends in the reconciliation and salvation of all mankind.

The belief in the eventual salvation of all humankind has been a topic of debate throughout the history of the Christian faith. In the early Church, universalism was a flourishing theological doctrine[1].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

From the ToS, part of rule #3:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussing these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This includes Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine which are only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, first I would say that in rejecting the "all roads" thing, this is coming from a Christian perspective. You may not agree, but can you see where we get that from the revelation we've been given? The last time we were engaged in a thread a few weeks ago, you were saying how you've come to the point of stopping just short of pronouncing yourself an atheist. So, from your perspective, no roads will lead to Him.

It sounds like your belief system has gone through a number of transformations.

If it were only that we choose our faith to be rewarded by Heaven, I could understand your point. But we are called, we respond. I have a choice, yet I have nothing within me that can reject my faith.

Hey Mjjcb,

I understand where you come from and why you believe what you believe but that doesn't make it so for everyone. Just like you would tell someone of another religion that their belief is wrong based on your opinion that your religion is right.

I'm not saying I'm right but rather presented a point of view which you by passed to tell me what I supposedly believe. You are an athiest towards all other religions gods so my agnostic viewpoint doesn't mean I don't believe their isn't a 'God' I just don't believe one religion holds the 'copyright' to 'Him'. I don't feel the need to conform my beliefs into a nice little bundle as some religions do.

You made the claim that scripture supports your view that Christianity is the only 'road' which is not the case as scripture states that Jesus is the 'road'. What you add to that doesn't make it so but merely what you hold to be true. So to say that certain roads people take don't lead to 'God' because you don't agree is not supported by scripture as we all must leave room to grow and mustn't add words to 'Jesus' way'.

cheers

 

[westtexas]

seekandlisten, first I would say that in rejecting the "all roads" thing, this is coming from a Christian perspective. You may not agree, but can you see where we get that from the revelation we've been given? The last time we were engaged in a thread a few weeks ago, you were saying how you've come to the point of stopping just short of pronouncing yourself an atheist. So, from your perspective, no roads will lead to Him.

Hey Mjjcb,
You made the claim that scripture supports your view that Christianity is the only 'road' which is not the case as scripture states that Jesus is the 'road'. What you add to that doesn't make it so but merely what you hold to be true. So to say that certain roads people take don't lead to 'God' because you don't agree is not supported by scripture as we all must leave room to grow and mustn't add words to 'Jesus' way'.

Isaiah 35:8--And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it (KJV)

John 14:6--Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (KJV)

Westtexas

 

[Mike]

Expanding a little on westtexas:
John 14:
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

seekandlisten, I know you dismiss much that is in the Bible. But you said you didn't see anything to support "the only road" being Jesus.

Of course I could stamp John 3:16, but I'm sure there is no need to point out that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[seekandlisten]

Isaiah 35:8--And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it (KJV)

Are only Christians 'holy' and 'clean'?

John 14:6--Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (KJV)

Seems to be referring to Jesus not religion, no?

A man heads out his door after reading John 14 with 'God' as the 'destination' on his 'road' only to run into the neighbor on his right telling him to choose the path of religion A and his neighbor on his left telling him to choose the path of religion B. Who put an obstruction in the path?

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, I know you dismiss much that is in the Bible.

Do I dismiss more the ideas about the Bible and what it says, or the Bible itself?

But you said you didn't see anything to support "the only road" being Jesus.

False. I said I didn't see any support of man defining this 'road' as it is not ours to define.

 

[happyjoy]

Paganism is also appealing to women, especially Wicca, because it has a female God. Christianity is often hostile to women. Through out its history women have been treated mostly as property. The trinity is an all boys club. Women can't speak or teach, or be pastors in most denominations. This new wave of demanding women submit is not good. It blames women for original sin. Yeah as if it's Eves fault Adam ate the apple. Women are evil and men don't have to take responsibility for their actions.

I think that as long as the fundamentalists keep pushing women as second class humans that more and more females will turn to turn to alternative religions.

 

[Mike]

Paganism is also appealing to women, especially Wicca, because it has a female God. Christianity is often hostile to women. Through out its history women have been treated mostly as property. The trinity is an all boys club. Women can't speak or teach, or be pastors in most denominations. This new wave of demanding women submit is not good. It blames women for original sin. Yeah as if it's Eves fault Adam ate the apple. Women are evil and men don't have to take responsibility for their actions.

I think that as long as the fundamentalists keep pushing women as second class humans that more and more females will turn to turn to alternative religions.

Yes, happyjoy, this seems to be a consistent source of your personal rejection that has been born of an apparent shallow reading of scripture. There are many female hero's of the Bible, and many Godly women read the same Word you have and see the true value that the Bible places on them. They certainly aren't "second class citizens". This seems to be a real stumbling block of yours, and it needn't be. You're pretty fixed in this stance of yours, and I'm assuming you feed off of woman's organizations who propagate this in order to back their agenda.

If you can ever find it within yourself to seek the Lord and truly read His Word, I have no doubt that He will reveal His Truth to you. Until that time, you will no doubt employ all your efforts to refute Christianity with every opportunity you have.

 

[happyjoy]

Paganism is also appealing to women, especially Wicca, because it has a female God. Christianity is often hostile to women. Through out its history women have been treated mostly as property. The trinity is an all boys club. Women can't speak or teach, or be pastors in most denominations. This new wave of demanding women submit is not good. It blames women for original sin. Yeah as if it's Eves fault Adam ate the apple. Women are evil and men don't have to take responsibility for their actions.

I think that as long as the fundamentalists keep pushing women as second class humans that more and more females will turn to turn to alternative religions.

Yes, happyjoy, this seems to be a consistent source of your personal rejection that has been born of an apparent shallow reading of scripture. There are many female hero's of the Bible, and many Godly women read the same Word you have and see the true value that the Bible places on them. They certainly aren't "second class citizens". This seems to be a real stumbling block of yours, and it needn't be. You're pretty fixed in this stance of yours, and I'm assuming you feed off of woman's organizations who propagate this in order to back their agenda.


If you can ever find it within yourself to seek the Lord and truly read His Word, I have no doubt that He will reveal His Truth to you. Until that time, you will no doubt employ all your efforts to refute Christianity with every opportunity you have.

I don't refute Christianity. I refute the male centered and dominated Christianity.
I certainly believe in do unto others, and believe in the teachings of Jesus, who had female Apostles, but the male church has not let their stories come out, and in the case of Mary Magdalene actively set out to defame her by calling her a whore.

 

[Mysteryman]

Paganism is also appealing to women, especially Wicca, because it has a female God. Christianity is often hostile to women. Through out its history women have been treated mostly as property. The trinity is an all boys club. Women can't speak or teach, or be pastors in most denominations. This new wave of demanding women submit is not good. It blames women for original sin. Yeah as if it's Eves fault Adam ate the apple. Women are evil and men don't have to take responsibility for their actions.

I think that as long as the fundamentalists keep pushing women as second class humans that more and more females will turn to turn to alternative religions.

Yes, happyjoy, this seems to be a consistent source of your personal rejection that has been born of an apparent shallow reading of scripture. There are many female hero's of the Bible, and many Godly women read the same Word you have and see the true value that the Bible places on them. They certainly aren't "second class citizens". This seems to be a real stumbling block of yours, and it needn't be. You're pretty fixed in this stance of yours, and I'm assuming you feed off of woman's organizations who propagate this in order to back their agenda.


If you can ever find it within yourself to seek the Lord and truly read His Word, I have no doubt that He will reveal His Truth to you. Until that time, you will no doubt employ all your efforts to refute Christianity with every opportunity you have.

I don't refute Christianity. I refute the male centered and dominated Christianity.
I certainly believe in do unto others, and believe in the teachings of Jesus, who had female Apostles, but the male church has not let their stories come out, and in the case of Mary Magdalene actively set out to defame her by calling her a whore.

There are no female Apostles ! Which is a huge red flag when you make such a comment. It appears that Mike knows what he was talking about ( mjjcb), when he wrote his previous post to you.

The reason Christ, a man, is the head of the Church is for a godly reason ! God himself is our dear heavenly Father, not mother.

There are prophetesses within the Word of God. However, not one prophetess was ever over a Prophet. If you think differently, read about Moses and Miriam. Nor was a prophetess ever given direct prophecy to the nation of Israel. Nor was any prophetess given any direct revelation to the Church.

The head of the woman is the man, and the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God - I Corinth. 11:1 - 9

 

[seekandlisten]

There are no female Apostles ! Which is a huge red flag when you make such a comment. It appears that Mike knows what he was talking about ( mjjcb), when he wrote his previous post to you.

I think Romans 16:7 disagrees with you.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

if you wish to digress into whether a woman can teach and preach then start another thread.

mary madgaglene. please show me where she was called a whore. i seem to recall that she had seven spirits delivered out of here.

 

[happyjoy]

if you wish to digress into whether a woman can teach and preach then start another thread.

mary madgaglene. please show me where she was called a whore. i seem to recall that she had seven spirits delivered out of here.

I never said the bible calls her a whore. I said the male dominated churches do. They are wrong. Females are not less than men.

 

[jasoncran]

most churches that i have visited dont call her whore.

i have been to "these male dominated ones. and a few that allow women to pastor and neither call her a whore.

 

[Mike]

I don't refute Christianity. I refute the male centered and dominated Christianity.
I certainly believe in do unto others, and believe in the teachings of Jesus, who had female Apostles, but the male church has not let their stories come out, and in the case of Mary Magdalene actively set out to defame her by calling her a whore.

happyjoy, I'm sorry, but you seem to take the opposing point of view from Christianity in virtually every thread you chime in on. If I see your name in a thread, I've come to expect that you will disagree with the Christian perspective. Maybe I'm wrong. If I am, can you cite an occasion, better yet, post a link here, of when you did defend the Faith? I'm not trying to attack you personally, but you seem to have pent up anger toward Christianity.

I was just listening to Hank Hanegraaff today, and he was pointing out the documented discovery of the empty tomb. This is nothing new, but it highlights the contradiction of what you say. During biblical times, a woman's testimony wasn't worth much. That was the world saying that, not Christianity. So we have the story of how two women discover the empty tomb. They could have added more credence to the account by placing men in their position. But they didn't, because that's not the way it happened, and that's not the motivation of the authors. If this were truly a male dominated story with a bend on propagating male dominance, they might have stretched it to give it more validity, but they didn't. Scripture stands up on its own.

You really have little respect for women and Christianity if you believe women will turn to paganism, ignoring the importance of faith, because of a perceived male agenda; as if they're nothing but social clubs that people pick and choose based on common interests.

 

[happyjoy]

most churches that i have visited dont call her whore.

i have been to "these male dominated ones. and a few that allow women to pastor and neither call her a whore.

Well maybe it was just the church I was raised in. Has anyone else heard that? Am I the only one?

 

[jasoncran]

name the denomation then.