Bible Study "Pastor" Office or Gift?

[cyberjosh]

To me, the fact that there is a "need" or perceived need in the local church to have a localized preacher is saddening.

One other thing that came to mind when you said 'localized preacher': This brings to mind the wonderful example of the Great Awakening for me. I have studied and written a paper on the amazing George Whitefield who was a great and very itinerant preacher, who in fact was shunned by the Anglican priesthood in England specifically because he did not honor the traditional defined 'parochial boundaries' (and that upset their delicate apple cart by preaching in any and every parish). By preaching across and even outside of the parochial boundaries George Whitefield reached hundreds of thousands on both the European and North American continents, and he reached even the rough and unkempt coal miners who were shunned as barbaric, half-animal like outcasts of society (for which there is a moving story of how the tears of conviction and joy upon hearing his preaching to them readily showed as they streaked down their pitch black, coal-smeared faces), and he went where other men spurned to go. Just like his close friend John Wesley had said, "The world is my parish", so too I believe could Whitefield say this as well.

Whitefield's heart for evangelism also bridged denominational boundaries. He once said, "I bless God, the partition wall of bigotry and sect-religion was soon broken down in my heart; for as soon as the love of God was shed abroad in my soul, I loved all, of whatever denomination, that loved the Lord Jesus in sincerity of heart."

He also said in a greatly animated spurt of oratory when preaching one day from a balcony in Philadelphia:

"Father Abraham, who have you got in heaven; any Episcopalians?" "No!" "Any Presbyterians?" "No!" "Any Baptists?" "No!" "Have you any Methodists there?" "No!" "Have you any Independents or Seceders?" "No! No!" "Why, who have you, then?" "We don't know those names here; all that are here are Christians—believers in Christ—men who have overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of his testimony!" O, is this the case? then God help me—God help us all—to forget party names, and to become Christians in deed and in truth"

Ah, that we would all have such a heart for the world and God's people!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

I`m glad to find someone else who thinks this way, but then the question comes how do we redirect the church back to being a body rather than operating as a once/twice a week organization? It seems like an overwhelming if not impossible task to accomplish.

Well we cannot just to put it bluntly. Only by complete surrender to the headship of Christ would anything be possible. If 'men' try and steer the direction of the body all you wind up with is another 'non' denominational gathering of believers.

Its interesting to go back and look at the history of denominations. The closer you get to our century the more denominations appear. It looks like a tree when viewed from the time Christ came. One major 'denomination', and then a schism would develop and another denomination would spring up. So on and so forth.

The past is the past. There is no way to go back and make it track another direction. But even more than that, the past dictates that things are going to move a certain direction even now. There is no way to not have the past influence the future.

The only thing I can see doing is individually focusing on Christ and others. What can happen real easy with topics like this is the focusing on ourself and the situation we are in. What this should do is drive us closer to the Truth, and He has a name.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, I agree, this is what has happened it seems in the church building, but it's not the way it was supposed to be.

We know the Body of Christ is everywhere and it is not limited to the space of a building, we are not supposed to be in the building, we are supposed to BE the Church. In order for the Body to operate we must have people who are teaching us, pastoring us, evangilizing for Christ, being apostles and prophets, for the perfecting of the saints. There are also gifts God gives to people to serve one another. That is the dinstinction I believe.

I think you are seeing what I saw a couple of years ago and started asking questions, and the church officials do not like to be questioned, they don't like their traditions to be questioned, especially at the age I was, they thought I was a rebel and maybe I was, but it just didn't seem right.

So I do agree with you, but you do not have to stay in the "church system".

I am also learning about this, you are bringing up alot of good questions and I appreciate that, this way we can all learn.

I really think this all stems from a misunderstanding of what Paul is exactly saying in Ephesians 4. We have come to believe that there are 5 'key' body parts that are supposed to develop all the rest of the body. Or worse yet, we think that there are 5 'positions' that are responsible for the creating of a body.

Those '5' gifts, as Ephesians clearly states, are simply a part of the body. Paul was not intending for us to focus on just those 5. That would be like saying the heart, liver, kidney, lungs, and stomach are responsible for building the body. Huh? Ok, so go ahead and throw out the tongue, arms, feet, along with the stomach, colon and bladder. Then see how much the key "5" parts are going to accomplish.

See the point? It takes all parts working together. There is no one individual part that has a greater role than the other. They are all needed. And all Paul is saying in Ephesians is that the gifts God has given us are used to build the body. But we have taken it to the point where we think that only those 5 build the body. Its a lie. And its what causes the confusion.

 

[Nathan]

So I do agree with you, but you do not have to stay in the "church system".

QUOTE]

But the problem is how do you leave the church system but still maintain fellowship AND function as a Body as God designed us to function, meaning having personal, face to face contact and relationships with one another while ministering to one another with our gifts?

Well, you should not leave the church. . Just saying. But I understand what your saying.

I think it goes back to focusing on Christ. I still go to my local fellowship. There are still a lot of people there that have a desire to follow Christ. That is the simplicity of being a Christian; following Christ. Its not about how much we know, or how much we do. But that is what we have turned it into.

When its all said and done, Christ is going to look at you and ask you what you did with His 'gift'. The parable of the talent rings loud and clear with this truth. Its not going to be about what the guy beside you did, or what you did with someone else, its going to be a very personal matter.

That gift is faith. Pure and simple. Faith is the channel through which God's grace flows to us. Grace is God's pure power. God has given you a specialized gift above and beyond faith. You simply use it by faith. It does not matter where you meet, or how you meet with others. The whole idea is to not get so wrapped up into someone else's faith that you neglect yours.

 

[Nathan]

Josh you bring up an excellent topic. This thread is kind of evolving :D, but its good I think.

You made the distinction "house of God" in reference to the building we gather at. But that is COMPLETELY un-biblical as far as the NT Church is concerned. But it is one of those things we normally just do not even recognize.

What it does do, however, is give insight to the idea of a hierarchy, just like there was in OT times with the Temple. And that gives us a little better glimpse into the idea behind the role of the modern day pastor. He, undoubtedly, acts like a priest in most cases. But that is just completely against everything the NT teaches.

 

[Nathan]

Josh, I hope you do not feel like I am picking on you. Its just that you bring a great, and needed, balance to this discussion.

You said;

Most of all the head pastor (who started the Church which grew out of his livingroom) is one who understands his role in the church, and he rather straight forwardly said a few weeks ago that we have to get up out of the sanctuary and apply the truth we learn, and he said rather pointedly "I am not your spiritual feeder!" (half the crowd remained silent and the rest clapped in agreement) and said we are not to be dependant on him (I've heard many preachers emphasizing this lately because they are getting sick of the do-nothing Church situation that many churches have fallen into these days) but must rely only on God for our spiritual nurturing. He said he has a calling to instruct us but we are not to come on Sunday to be "fed" by him, that's not what he is there for. I like our head pastor because he understand his role, he has the loving heart of a servant, and he also has spiritual discernment (a few times I have seen him stop what he is saying, in the middle of a sermon, to take up an immediate prayer burden for some issue or situation in someone present's life that needs prayer and have been amazed to see people stand or raise their hand to say the issue put on his heart to pray for was for them specifically - and are remarkably accurate/non-general - indicating a word of knowledge).

There are just a few things I wanted to comment on. First off it is interesting that we deem people as 'head' pastor. I understand what you are saying, but the truth is that we indeed feel this way anyways. They are called 'senior' pastors in other places. But there is again nothing that lines up biblically about that. Yes, there are pastors, but the NT never distinguishes a hierarchal role of them.

Secondly, what you describe seems to be the 'move' in the "churches" today. The pastor getting frustrated with the 'pew sitters' and they are starting to speak out about it. I think this is where this discussion has been born. But with all due respect, their the ones who are responsible for the people sitting. But I think that deep inside they know this, but years of tradition keeps 'muddying' the truth.

The role of the 'pastor', the pastor specifically and biblically, is to lead by example. But what we see is the pastor leading by instruction. Again, my heart goes out to them. They have had so many extra roles placed on them that the one they need to focus on is drowned out.

What I would think would be absolutely crazy, is for a pastor to come in on a Sunday morning and lead by example.

 

[Elijah674]

Maybe because it's easier for people to be told what to do than to think for themselves, and it's easier just to sit there and let someone else do all the work.

We don't have to chose that way, there are other fellowships going strong outside of the church buildings.[/QU

Rock.., you are surely way past some ones 'of' today in your spiritual learning! Present Day Truth is not nit/picking stuff about pastors! IT IS THE LUKEWARM of the whole Rev. 3:16 MEMBERSHIP. (that is the Word of God, huh?)

And I am wondering if there are anymore that care that the LAST CHURCH is said to be SPEWED OUT AS SICKENING?? Christ stated that even the Rocks would Cry out if these ones held their peace. (Rocks? hello?) Most of the posts on here even make me Rev. 3:16 SICK. And were these 'Rocks' polished shining pastors?
(Luke 10:1 & Luke 10:17 even)

Who needs this stuff in any church, 'poor little me' i can't even say anything +++ just some more crying! These ones need to get REAL & find why the Holy Spirit DOCUMENTED the Rev. 17:1-5 verse????!!!! IT IS BECAUSE OF OPEN FALSE FILTH IN DOCTRINE + DAILY PRINT SEEN IN THE UNIVERSE, & how do we show our LOVE for Christ & all of these Obadiah 1:16 to be ones?? By whimpering & crying? I even got an email that if made public would let ALL see the sweet two face talk by one of 'a' forum in satanic mind reading of another, in reality!

Even note Jer. 15's old posting by me here below. Who were these people that Jeremiah was talking about doing the persecuting? And what was GODS MESSAGE to Jermiah? It sure was not about the Gifts of the Church whic God sent this PRESENT DAY message for!

Perhaps one might see the requirement of God before the Virgin Candlestick was removed! Rev. 2:5 + Matt. 23:38's Total DESOLATION with Christ STRIVING with them in Person. Their Full/Cup as seen in the Matt. 25's CLOSED DOOR. (ibid.10)

Jer. 15

[15] O LORD, thou knowest: remember me, and visit me, and revenge me of my persecutors; take me not away in thy longsuffering: know that for thy sake I have suffered rebuke.
(from Christ Very Own! Eccl. 3:15 again)

[16] Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and [thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart]: for [I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.]
(You know! Matt. 4:4 & John 1's WORD! I forgot, some have trouble reading that in the N.T. while applying to the O.T.? See Deut. 8:3 then! or if you are off milk yet?? see Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15)
​

[17] [I sat not in the assembly of the mockers], nor rejoiced; [I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation].
​

(that seems easy enough to understand for even the 'milk' drinking ones?? No names are mentioned, but it was the [WHOLE OF THE 'PARTAKING 'FOLD], HUH! 'Rev. 18:4' Just one quick thought of your projected brothers,.. 'and don't forget the professed sisters!' when they are seen in Rev. 3:16-17's Lukewarm also, & then say that they die in that [sick luke/warm temperature], are they really to be SPEWED OUT as the Word of God states! NO question intended! And Jer. goes on....)

[18] Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, which refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, and as waters that fail?
​

(Now pay apt attention of what God required of the guy!)

[19] Therefore thus saith the LORD, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and [if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth:] let them [return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.]
(And what have these birds of today been telling you even after Christ has been admittedly dumped by their own admission? Stick with the Sick Rev. 17:1-5 church' that they are 'yoked' in! See Eze. 9)

[20] And I will make thee unto this people a fenced brasen wall: and they shall fight against thee, but they shall not prevail against thee: for I am with thee to save thee and to deliver thee, saith the LORD.
​

OK: You might need to look a tad part further for what made God + Jer. sick? Try Rev. 18:4 again?? or the garbage of the Rev. 17:5 'brothers' of some of the professed ones here! And 2 Peter 2:19-22's 'VOMIT' as is in verse 19.. while they 'promise them liberty', you know, only believism.

---Elijah
​

OTE]

 

[Nathan]

Again Josh, you bring up the most important point when you ask the question;

"What are YOU going to do about it", in regards to the situation we see in the local fellowships we attend.

This is where, and how, I know my heart is pure. Because an impure heart and motives only seek to destroy. My heart has a desire to build. But at the same time I am saddened because to a certain degree a persons hands are tied when it comes to this. Specifically because of the way we have 'set up' the church. In our efforts to keep it 'organized', we limit the abilities of those who are not apart of the organization.

For instance, your body like to be clean...I hope . You probably take a shower every so often right? If your hands get dirty, you wash them right? Well, there are other parts of your body that would be harmed if you tried to constantly keep them clean. Like your colon, or large intestine. Try giving yourself an enema every day for a week and see what happens. I promise it wont work out so well for you.

Then there is your feet. One foot moves and another foot stays put in order for you to walk. However, if you need to stand still, they must both do the same thing. Same holds true with your arms and hands.

Your heart is a very central need to your body. You could not live without it. So are your lungs, red blood cells, white blood cells. The list goes on and on. Yet each part of the body is ONLY controlled by one part, the head. Your brain is the only central part of the body that controls all other parts. Your heat does not control your pointing finger, even though you could live without your pointing finger. So WE would say our pointing finger is not as needful as our heart. And in effect it is not, but ask your head if its ok just to go on with life without it. lol. Your brain would say, "I think we should keep it around".

So here is what I am saying. What we have done is 'put' certain parts in charge of other parts. But those parts, as important as they are to the body, just simply do not control the other parts the way we think they should. It gets frustrating because we are not letting the parts function like they should.

Its like my right arm picking up and moving my left arm and hand. It would be a lot smarter to just allow my head to do it. Oh sure, my right arm is more than capable of it, but it is not efficient. And then you have the heart. As important as it is, it simply cannot make my hand move, no matter how hard it beats. But what it can do is provide blood to my hand, and if it is hurting my hand will be hurting.

So yes, there are some parts of the body that are more 'needful' than others, but "us" parts cannot truly know which ones they are. Only our head knows. And only our head should be the one controlling.

 

[Jake]

I really think this all stems from a misunderstanding of what Paul is exactly saying in Ephesians 4. We have come to believe that there are 5 'key' body parts that are supposed to develop all the rest of the body. Or worse yet, we think that there are 5 'positions' that are responsible for the creating of a body.

Those '5' gifts, as Ephesians clearly states, are simply a part of the body. Paul was not intending for us to focus on just those 5. That would be like saying the heart, liver, kidney, lungs, and stomach are responsible for building the body. Huh? Ok, so go ahead and throw out the tongue, arms, feet, along with the stomach, colon and bladder. Then see how much the key "5" parts are going to accomplish.

See the point? It takes all parts working together. There is no one individual part that has a greater role than the other. They are all needed. And all Paul is saying in Ephesians is that the gifts God has given us are used to build the body. But we have taken it to the point where we think that only those 5 build the body. Its a lie. And its what causes the confusion.

The "5" did not create the Body, they are to build up the body.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

We are focusing on these, because you want to know if they are "offices" or spiritual gifts and they are "offices".
Yes, we are all working together, but these people, who hold "offices" are more mature than the rest of us.

 

[Jake]

Again Josh, you bring up the most important point when you ask the question;

"What are YOU going to do about it", in regards to the situation we see in the local fellowships we attend.

This is where, and how, I know my heart is pure. Because an impure heart and motives only seek to destroy. My heart has a desire to build. But at the same time I am saddened because to a certain degree a persons hands are tied when it comes to this. Specifically because of the way we have 'set up' the church. In our efforts to keep it 'organized', we limit the abilities of those who are not apart of the organization.

For instance, your body like to be clean...I hope . You probably take a shower every so often right? If your hands get dirty, you wash them right? Well, there are other parts of your body that would be harmed if you tried to constantly keep them clean. Like your colon, or large intestine. Try giving yourself an enema every day for a week and see what happens. I promise it wont work out so well for you.

Then there is your feet. One foot moves and another foot stays put in order for you to walk. However, if you need to stand still, they must both do the same thing. Same holds true with your arms and hands.

Your heart is a very central need to your body. You could not live without it. So are your lungs, red blood cells, white blood cells. The list goes on and on. Yet each part of the body is ONLY controlled by one part, the head. Your brain is the only central part of the body that controls all other parts. Your heat does not control your pointing finger, even though you could live without your pointing finger. So WE would say our pointing finger is not as needful as our heart. And in effect it is not, but ask your head if its ok just to go on with life without it. lol. Your brain would say, "I think we should keep it around".

So here is what I am saying. What we have done is 'put' certain parts in charge of other parts. But those parts, as important as they are to the body, just simply do not control the other parts the way we think they should. It gets frustrating because we are not letting the parts function like they should.

Its like my right arm picking up and moving my left arm and hand. It would be a lot smarter to just allow my head to do it. Oh sure, my right arm is more than capable of it, but it is not efficient. And then you have the heart. As important as it is, it simply cannot make my hand move, no matter how hard it beats. But what it can do is provide blood to my hand, and if it is hurting my hand will be hurting.

So yes, there are some parts of the body that are more 'needful' than others, but "us" parts cannot truly know which ones they are. Only our head knows. And only our head should be the one controlling.

As long as you stay in the organized church system we call the modern church, you will always have this problem. The way I see it, this IS the problem, along with preaching false doctrine.


Revelation 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

 

[Jake]

Maybe because it's easier for people to be told what to do than to think for themselves, and it's easier just to sit there and let someone else do all the work.

We don't have to chose that way, there are other fellowships going strong outside of the church buildings.[/QU

Rock.., you are surely way past some ones 'of' today in your spiritual learning! Present Day Truth is not nit/picking stuff about pastors! IT IS THE LUKEWARM of the whole Rev. 3:16 MEMBERSHIP. (that is the Word of God, huh?)



OTE]

Thanks Elijah, what I see are people who I know, who are so far in manifesting Christ, I am nowhere near them, and have a very long way to go.

 

[Nathan]

The "5" did not create the Body, they are to build up the body.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

We are focusing on these, because you want to know if they are "offices" or spiritual gifts and they are "offices".
Yes, we are all working together, but these people, who hold "offices" are more mature than the rest of us.

No. They are not the ones who build up the body. They are a part of the body. This is made clear through out the rest of the NT. They help build the body, but no more than the rest of the body works together to build the body. Us taking a few verses and building a doctrine is what has destroyed the body.

Yes, this started with focusing on 'office' verses 'gift'. Because that is what I had always been taught. But what happened is that through this discussion I have come to realize that they are linked together and CANNOT be separated.

Proof of this is the simple fact that God does not give a gift to someone just so they can say "I have the gift of ___". He gives it to them for the use of all. Someone might be a foot, but if they are not attached to the body they will die. Likewise, a foot that is attached to the body, but does not function, will eventually die and be infected with disease.

Just because people have a seemingly 'greater' role, for example our heart and lungs, does not mean that those who do not have such an seemingly great role are any less mature. Try to live a week without your bladder. You will die from infection. I do not care how 'mature' and 'strong' your heart is. All parts of the body have a function. We have seemingly taken the part of the body called the "pastor" and made him the head, instead of leaving him as the vital part of the body he was designed for.

That is why this discussion has started with the Pastor. Because he is seemingly the "top of the line" when we think about the "church".

 

[Proverbs3/5]

However this is a Church which had humble origins and grew out of meeting in someone's living room and over time grew more and more because God blessed it. And it has not one pastor but almost near 10 pastors in various aspects of the Church ministry which however do all get to preach and (beyond just sermons) serve in teaching, instructing, and leading God's people in prayer. And as I recently went through the membership program they took very seriously the responsibility to lay out the Church's mission and doctrine, as the body well has a right to know, and I also was overwhelmed with the ministry opportunities that were available and they urge every member to be involved, and not just to fill a seat (that's where the 'pew-sitter' point came from: their stong emphasis on not being one ).

There are at least 20 different ministry opportunities (one of the most interesting and yet non-glamourous of them being the parking ministry [as important, yet 'menial', a task as Acts 6:2-4]- who sacrificially help [for over an hour total for all the servicies] everyone pack into the parking lot of the old grocery store that the Church was built inside of - possibly an old Walmart - whether it is subzero temperatures or not, and graciously deal with grumpy drivers, so as to not even give the enemy any opportunity to give someone who may be on the fence about going to Church for the first time an excuse to say "Oh well, I guess its just too hard to get into this Church, I think I'll just go to the bar down the street and get a drink instead" [and if that doesn't make sense then you would just have to see our inner-city church and see the challenging, over-crowded parking situation for yourself - people will park in alley ways, the adjacent Staples parking lot, and on the grass behind the Church just to get to one of the services]) which are ministries for everyone to get plugged into and there is a strong emphasis on evangelism and serving others.

Most of all the head pastor (who started the Church which grew out of his livingroom) is one who understands his role in the church..............

For a moment I thought you were describing the church that I attend! It all started about the same way. Pastor Tom was just a leader of a home Bible study that felt the call of God to lead a growing fellowship. Fast forward 25 years, and the church has grown (3 different communities on the campus, and 4 services each weekend) to meet the needs of the fast growing community around it. The core purpose of each of these communities is to prepare every generation to change their worlds for Christ. The pastors (about a dozen) all have different gifts and some teach, some preach, but many just shepherd the flock and oversee the particular ministry that they are called to. It has probably been said, but the pastor fulfills his "office" by using the "gift" that God has given him (teaching, preaching, evangelizing, etc).

 

[Jake]

No. They are not the ones who build up the body. They are a part of the body. This is made clear through out the rest of the NT. They help build the body, but no more than the rest of the body works together to build the body. Us taking a few verses and building a doctrine is what has destroyed the body.

Yes, this started with focusing on 'office' verses 'gift'. Because that is what I had always been taught. But what happened is that through this discussion I have come to realize that they are linked together and CANNOT be separated.

Proof of this is the simple fact that God does not give a gift to someone just so they can say "I have the gift of ___". He gives it to them for the use of all. Someone might be a foot, but if they are not attached to the body they will die. Likewise, a foot that is attached to the body, but does not function, will eventually die and be infected with disease.

Just because people have a seemingly 'greater' role, for example our heart and lungs, does not mean that those who do not have such an seemingly great role are any less mature. Try to live a week without your bladder. You will die from infection. I do not care how 'mature' and 'strong' your heart is. All parts of the body have a function. We have seemingly taken the part of the body called the "pastor" and made him the head, instead of leaving him as the vital part of the body he was designed for.

That is why this discussion has started with the Pastor. Because he is seemingly the "top of the line" when we think about the "church".

Yes, they are "building up the church", how can you deny, it's in black and white.

Ephesians2: 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;

The apostles and the prophets laid the foundation and notice it says "being built" that means it is on-going, continuing, happpening in the present.

A person who has the gift of administration is not laying the foundation of His Church.

 

[Nathan]

As long as you stay in the organized church system we call the modern church, you will always have this problem. The way I see it, this IS the problem, along with preaching false doctrine.


Revelation 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

You are right. But my heart goes out to those who are still in the 'organized church'. I used to be there. I am not anymore. I still go to their gatherings because I am led to do so. Some here may not agree with that, but I am accountable to only one, Christ.

There are still those in the 'organized church' who are yet to come out of the 'system'. If God chooses to use me to reach them than I should be using my faith. We definitely CANNOT change the 'system'. We can see this clearly when we actually take a moment to step back and look at the history of the 'church' as we know it.

ALL denominations have stemmed from the "Catholic" church. There is no denying that. What that does is give new light to this passage;

Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.

What the discussion here is beginning to do is show us the 'roots' of why things are done the way they are done. We WILL not change the system. There is no doubt about that. But just hunkering up in some cave is not the answer either, UNLESS you are being called to do that.

The calling is to come out of the way of thinking that surrounds the 'institutional church', its not nearly as much physically as it is spiritually. Because what we are seeing is yet another 'offspring' from the 'mother' which is the modern day house church. They might not physically resemble the 'institutional church' but they are still spiritually linked with them.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, they are "building up the church", how can you deny, it's in black and white.

Ephesians2: 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;

The apostles and the prophets laid the foundation and notice it says "being built" that means it is on-going, continuing, happpening in the present.

A person who has the gift of administration is not laying the foundation of His Church.

think about the analogy for a minute. Yes, Christ is the cornerstone. Without one the building would fall. The apostles are apart of the foundation, without the foundation the building will fall. But each one of us are living stones, who are laid in that building also. You take out us, and the wall will fall. Just because there is a foundation does not mean that the rest of the stones are not needed for building. A foundation is simply that, a foundation. It is not a wall, it is not a building.

 

[Elijah674]

The "5" did not create the Body, they are to build up the body.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

We are focusing on these, because you want to know if they are "offices" or spiritual gifts and they are "offices".
Yes, we are all working together, but these people, who hold "offices" are more mature than the rest of us.

--Elijah here:
You again are SO RIGHT! Christ in Acts 9 did not send Saul (Paul) to the foot, who this site surely is! Nor BACK INTO THE FOLD that he [was] 'working for'!
So what about the 'place' that Christ did indeed send Paul, & why did Christ not tell Paul Himself what was to be done?

And also, is this any place to get True Spiritual answers from regarding the Word of God??? Jer. 17:5

I suggest that the thread starter is under CONVICTION and NEEDS HIS INFORMATION from elsewhere! Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16. And not the conviction of repentance, but of his calling + duty, yet it appears that he is still as Saul, but asking the wrong crowd!! Acts 9:6

--Elijah

PS: I do occasionally see a good sentence from others

Men are God's method. The church is looking for better methods; God is looking for better men.... What the church needs today is not more machinery or better, not new organizations or more and novel methods, but men whom the Holy Ghost can use -- men of prayer, men mighty in prayer. The Holy Ghost does not come on machinery, but on men. He does not anoint plans, but men -- men of prayer....

The training of the Twelve was the great, difficult and enduring work of Christ... It is not great talents or great learning or great preachers that God needs, but men great in holiness, great in faith, great in love, great in fidelity, great for God -- men always preaching by holy sermons in the pulpit, by holy lives out of it. These can mould a generation for God.

E. M. Bounds

 

[Jake]

think about the analogy for a minute. Yes, Christ is the cornerstone. Without one the building would fall. The apostles are apart of the foundation, without the foundation the building will fall. But each one of us are living stones, who are laid in that building also. You take out us, and the wall will fall. Just because there is a foundation does not mean that the rest of the stones are not needed for building. A foundation is simply that, a foundation. It is not a wall, it is not a building.

Yes, the Body of Christ needs all the parts, otherwise it would not be functioning, but is it functioning the way it's supposed to be functioning? No. Because people forgot He gave us the 5 fold ministry to build up His Church to perfect the saints.

 

[Nathan]

--Elijah here:
You again are SO RIGHT! Christ in Acts 9 did not send Saul (Paul) to the foot, who this site surely is! Nor BACK INTO THE FOLD that he [was] 'working for'!
So what about the 'place' that Christ did indeed send Paul, & why did Christ not tell Paul Himself what was to be done?

And also, is this any place to get True Spiritual answers from regarding the Word of God??? Jer. 17:5

I suggest that the thread starter is under CONVICTION and NEEDS HIS INFORMATION from elsewhere! Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16. And not the conviction of repentance, but of his calling + duty, yet it appears that he is still as Saul, but asking the wrong crowd!! Acts 9:6

--Elijah

You would not be too far off track with that assumption. But there is more to it than what meets the eye. Romans 9.

I know the truth, brother, I am searching no more for it. I am not seeking the wisdom of man, but the fellowship of brothers.

When Paul made the statement he did, was he walking after the wisdom of man, and was he desiring to be yoked with those he spoke with?

Act 17:22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious.

Act 17:23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

Act 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,

Act 17:25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

Act 17:27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Act 17:28 for "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.'

Act 17:29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."


Paul did not align himself with the fold he was brought out of, but it did not mean he did not care for the souls inside the false shepherds gates. The system is sickening, but the lives are real. Compassion that only talks is not compassion at all.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You are right. But my heart goes out to those who are still in the 'organized church'. I used to be there. I am not anymore. I still go to their gatherings because I am led to do so. Some here may not agree with that, but I am accountable to only one, Christ.

There are still those in the 'organized church' who are yet to come out of the 'system'. If God chooses to use me to reach them than I should be using my faith. We definitely CANNOT change the 'system'. We can see this clearly when we actually take a moment to step back and look at the history of the 'church' as we know it.

ALL denominations have stemmed from the "Catholic" church. There is no denying that. What that does is give new light to this passage;

Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.

What the discussion here is beginning to do is show us the 'roots' of why things are done the way they are done. We WILL not change the system. There is no doubt about that. But just hunkering up in some cave is not the answer either, UNLESS you are being called to do that.

The calling is to come out of the way of thinking that surrounds the 'institutional church', its not nearly as much physically as it is spiritually. Because what we are seeing is yet another 'offspring' from the 'mother' which is the modern day house church. They might not physically resemble the 'institutional church' but they are still spiritually linked with them.

Awesome points Nathan, awesome points! When one truly studied the word and does his or her best to do so with as little preconception as possible, these are the types of questions and conclusions one usually will come to. The problem we have with religion is SYSTEMIC! The system and organization is not broken and does not have a problem, it IS the problem! It's dogma, hierarchies, and its respective denominational practices have done so much to separate believers in so many ways. We have a divide between denonimations and an even bigger divide between the laity and the clergy which spits in the face of Jesus' prayer in John 17 that we all be one.
All that being said, I believe it would me a mistake for us to try to reform the organizd church. We instead need to reform our own thinking to make sure that it conforms to what the word of God tells us. It all then starts with us as christians being more involved in each other's lives and establishing real, meaningful, personal relationships with each other. The formalities of organized religion have served to separate us for centuries, we need to say, "NO MORE" and start unifying with love as our common thread mirroring the saints we read about to fellowshiped with each other from house to house. They ate together, they laughed together, cried together, prayed together, suffered together, and encourage one another to endure and keep the faith together! Jesus' true "church" is NOT an organizatio but rather a people, and it is people that need to be the focus. Those of us who are older and mature in the faith need to take an active role as pastors (shephards) if we fit the descriptions given in Timothy and Titus recognizing that our excellent example, encouragement, and overseeing the "health" of the souls (lives) of our beloved brethren is needed. This can start with us being more hospitable as it is written in Titus and 1 Timothy. We need to let people into our lives so that we can share in theirs so that we will be able to see when they are struggling and what they are struggling with so that we can help them avoid and deal with the wiles of the devil they face.