Paul and Women

[elijah23]

Why did Paul say this?:

[33] As in all the churches of the saints,
[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[36] What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 1 Cor 14:33b-36 RSV

 

[Deborah13]

Young's Literal Translation
1Co 14:36 From you did the word of God come forth? or to you alone did it come?
1Co 14:37 if any one doth think to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge the things that I write to you--that of the Lord they are commands;
1Co 14:38 and if any one is ignorant--let him be ignorant;
1Co 14:39 so that, brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and to speak with tongues do not forbid;
1Co 14:40 let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[Butch5]

Why did Paul say this?:

[33] As in all the churches of the saints,
[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[36] What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 1 Cor 14:33b-36 RSV

Hi Elijah,

It is my understanding that in the Synagogues a man would read a passage of Scripture and give his understanding of it. This in turn would be discussed among the other men. It seems this was also happening in the Church at Corinth and that the women were taking part. It is my understanding that this is what Paul is addressing, that the women were not to challenge the male speaker. I believe this goes back to his teaching about the created order.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1Co 11:3 KJV)

If a woman is to be subject to her husband in the assembly she cannot be teaching and challenging the other men.

 

[jasonc]

Hi Elijah,

It is my understanding that in the Synagogues a man would read a passage of Scripture and give his understanding of it. This in turn would be discussed among the other men. It seems this was also happening in the Church at Corinth and that the women were taking part. It is my understanding that this is what Paul is addressing, that the women were not to challenge the male speaker. I believe this goes back to his teaching about the created order.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1Co 11:3 KJV)

If a woman is to be subject to her husband in the assembly she cannot be teaching and challenging the other men.

well in context that means no sunday school with boys over 13. that is manhood. not 18 in that era. both greeks, romans and jews had that view of manhood.

 

[Butch5]

well in context that means no sunday school with boys over 13. that is manhood. not 18 in that era. both greeks, romans and jews had that view of manhood.

Actually, I believe it was just in the congregation during worship. I don't think it was all the time.

 

[jasonc]

Actually, I believe it was just in the congregation during worship. I don't think it was all the time.

the teaching wasn't during worship. if that was then would include all times. teaching is teaching. besides in those days, the man didn't sit with his wife. the wife would ask what the husband was saying. that was done in even in modern judiasm. my dad talked about women on one side of the aisle and men on the other. this is still done in Chassidic Judaism.

 

[Deborah13]

Paul says, Learn from Your husbands at home. This isn't about women teaching or challenging it's about asking questions.

1Co 14:35 and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.

The whole chapter is about orderly conduct in the church.

Paul said women were not to teach men, but I think that is in Timothy?

 

[jasonc]

Paul says, Learn from Your husbands at home. This isn't about women teaching or challenging it's about asking questions.

1Co 14:35 and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.

The whole chapter is about orderly conduct in the church.
Paul said women were not to teach men, but I think that is in Timothy?

yes that would be the problem. but while I understand the issue and lean the way it reads, but to say women cant teach then negates itself. a boy in Judaism in any boy under 13, once he is 13 his own mom cant teach him the torah. that is a problem. while it was parents generally the temple did this. you mentioned that already elsewhere.

the torah did say the parents were to teach the torah, not the temple nor the priest. but we are going into the law. I prefer men lead and teach but sometimes only a woman can say it. there was an article from chabad that I posted that was beautiful and it was about the mother of david and her suffering of being divorced. only a woman could relate.

]

 

[Deborah13]

yes that would be the problem. but while I understand the issue and lean the way it reads, but to say women cant teach then negates itself. a boy in Judaism in any boy under 13, once he is 13 his own mom cant teach him the torah. that is a problem. while it was parents generally the temple did this. you mentioned that already elsewhere.

the torah did say the parents were to teach the torah, not the temple nor the priest. but we are going into the law. I prefer men lead and teach but sometimes only a woman can say it. there was an article from chabad that I posted that was beautiful and it was about the mother of david and her suffering of being divorced. only a woman could relate.

]

I think this speaks to what you say. Apollos was hardly a child even. But it wasn't in church.

Act 18:24 And a certain Jew, Apollos by name, an Alexandrian by birth, a man of eloquence, being mighty in the Writings, came to Ephesus,
Act 18:25 this one was instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in the Spirit, was speaking and teaching exactly the things about the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John;
Act 18:26 this one also began to speak boldly in the synagogue, and Aquilas and Priscilla having heard of him, took him to them , and did more exactly expound to him the way of God,

They both taught Apollos.

 

[Butch5]

the teaching wasn't during worship. if that was then would include all times. teaching is teaching. besides in those days, the man didn't sit with his wife. the wife would ask what the husband was saying. that was done in even in modern judiasm. my dad talked about women on one side of the aisle and men on the other. this is still done in Chassidic Judaism.

Hi Jason,

What I'm talking about is a particular thing that was happening in the churches. I don't think Paul was saying that women cannot speak in the church at all because he allows for them to prophesy in the church.

 

[jasonc]

Hi Jason,

What I'm talking about is a particular thing that was happening in the churches. I don't think Paul was saying that women cannot speak in the church at all because he allows for them to prophesy in the church.

the word their prophecy is to teach. read what the rest of the bible says on that. I don't allow a woman to usurp authority over a man.

I understand the context of that, but we must also balance the idea that a pastor is head of the congregation right? what if in that instance he receives a word from a prophetess? who has the authority then? he or she?

 

[for_his_glory]

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive. It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so

 

[JCitoL]

Why did Paul say this?:

[33] As in all the churches of the saints,
[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[36] What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 1 Cor 14:33b-36 RSV

the believers should listen the Word of God so that the male believers should be able to understand the Word of God alone, while if some female believers cannot understand something, they should ask the men

Blessings

 

[Deborah13]

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive. It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so

imo, this is a very good post.
I also had studied out the name of 'Junia' if I remember correctly not only would it have been spelled as you say but there was found no record of a male being named in any writings from the time that corresponds to the female Junia where usually there is. Such as Michael is to Michelle.
Archeology has also born witness to women in leadership position. One such is an excavation of an old cemetery site. A headstone was found engraved for a daughter who's mother was Lois, the presbytary.
I think you may enjoy this site and be able to refer to many things in the text, not just those about women. It was/is written by a man over several years adding to it and addressing issues that Christian have written to him about. But I will give the link to one of the articles about Jesus/Paul and women.
http://www.christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

 

[Deborah13]

the believers should listen the Word of God so that the male believers should be able to understand the Word of God alone, while if some female believers cannot understand something, they should ask the men

Blessings

I don't see where it says "ask the men"?
I see where it says ask her OWN husband at home.
A woman is called to be submissive to her own husband and him to her.
In the church leadership she would submit to the leadership in the same way her husband submits to the leadership.

I do believe that in the home the husband has the final say, as long as he is not asking her to do something against God's moral law. What I mean by that is 'dealing drugs or some such thing'.

 

[Claudya]

Maybe they had a number of noisy women in the church in Corinth who constantly disturbed the service and Paul wrote those lines just so that particular congregation could hold their services in an orderly manner.

But I would guess it's Paul's upbringing as an ancient oriental dude with his Jewish background having certain expectation of how a woman should behave. The main point is that he wants order and decency. Nowadays a church that generally bars women from any teaching or leadership (let alone from speaking in church) will be considered indecent by many, even by christians.

Hehe I wonder what Paul would expect whom unmarried women should ask when they have questions.

 

[JCitoL]

I don't see where it says "ask the men"?
I see where it says ask her OWN husband at home.
A woman is called to be submissive to her own husband and him to her.
In the church leadership she would submit to the leadership in the same way her husband submits to the leadership.

I do believe that in the home the husband has the final say, as long as he is not asking her to do something against God's moral law. What I mean by that is 'dealing drugs or some such thing'.

and what if some woman has no husband?!

Blessings

 

[Deborah13]

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive. It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so

I just mentioned your post to my daughter, Lexy, and how you were brave enough to even mention Junia. She laughed and pointed out to me that her professor for her college class on Romans, who by the way is in his late sixties or early seventies and a retired Baptist preacher from the Bible belt, brought this up in a class. He had researched it and told the class that there is no way to get around,
Junia was a woman and an apostle. He had been forced to change his mind by the facts.

 

[Deborah13]

Maybe they had a number of noisy women in the church in Corinth who constantly disturbed the service and Paul wrote those lines just so that particular congregation could hold their services in an orderly manner.

But I would guess it's Paul's upbringing as an ancient oriental dude with his Jewish background having certain expectation of how a woman should behave. The main point is that he wants order and decency. Nowadays a church that generally bars women from any teaching or leadership (let alone from speaking in church) will be considered indecent by many, even by christians.

Hehe I wonder what Paul would expect whom unmarried women should ask when they have questions.

There an interesting read.
http://www.christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

Rabbical/ Jesus/ Paul about women

 

[Deborah13]

and what if some woman has no husband?!

Blessings

Paul said that younger women should learn from the older women.
Or if those weren't there it would be men in leadership.