Paul and Women

[Doulos Iesou]

I watched ( not finished yet ) the youtube " Did Jesus really rise from the dead" and can see that there are some sections which when taken in isolation look very dodgy but aren't really. I'll need to finish watching it and there are some things I don't agree with ( that's not unusual :biggrin ). I think I'll have to hold my opinion for now.

I look forward to your feedback, in his writings he does a lot more qualifying because people often don't hear him correctly.

Yeah Doulos I understand this and I see that #2 is only addressing one particular section and not attacking the whole Bible's inerrancy but do you think this could be used as argument against other scriptures ? I think it's a concern.

That is a slippery slope fallacy, but at the same time a practical concern. It doesn't negate my argument, but I think it comes down to how one respects the Word of God. I think if there is sufficient evidence for something being an interpolation then their respect for the Word of God should necessitate they recognize it as an interpolation.

Our honoring God is first, some people hold up the Scriptures as they are now in a particular translation and pretty much make that an idol. Without some form of textual criticism we couldn't come to have as accurate a translation as we have now.

 

[agua.]

IMO a woman's covering IS her long hair, as Paul stated in v15, but this is a whole other issue. Again, IMO Paul here in 1 Cor 11, is dealing with a different issue that has nothing to do with submission to men, but more than likely another cultural issue that raised itself in this church.

Stan if Paul is dealing with a cultural issue why does he talk about headship and the created order ?

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:7-10 KJV For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (8) For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. (9) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (10) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

When I was first saved back in 1971, many women wore hats in church and I was led to believe that is was scriptural in nature. I quickly discovered as did many, that this was not the case.
As far as angels are concerned, that is a whole other thread. The NT is replete with references about angels. Paul does allude to them constantly and Luke in Hebrews does teach that they were instrumental in distributing the Law.

This connection with the angels may be pivotal to the discussion especially since Paul connects it with the headship issue in 1Cor 11. I know this is a very touchy subject but we need to look at it deeply I think. Mostly this "because of the angels " is left as an obscure scripture that seems unrelated to the subject of headship but I think it's the heart of the matter and goes back to when satan fell imo. It's an interesting study.

 

[Deborah13]

I look forward to your feedback, in his writings he does a lot more qualifying because people often don't hear him correctly.


That is a slippery slope fallacy, but at the same time a practical concern. It doesn't negate my argument, but I think it comes down to how one respects the Word of God. I think if there is sufficient evidence for something being an interpolation then their respect for the Word of God should necessitate they recognize it as an interpolation.

Our honoring God is first, some people hold up the Scriptures as they are now in a particular translation and pretty much make that an idol. Without some form of textual criticism we couldn't come to have as accurate a translation as we have now.

Here's an example of different wording in translation that affects the interpretation of a scripture.
YLT
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,
1Ti 2:12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,
KJV
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 

[Stan1953]

Stan if Paul is dealing with a cultural issue why does he talk about headship and the created order ?
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:7-10 KJV For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (8) For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. (9) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (10) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

To educate those who don't know about those things, as they are new converts. It would be wrong to assume Paul is ONLY dealing with a single issue here in chapter 11. Paul always makes multiple points in his epistles.

This connection with the angels may be pivotal to the discussion especially since Paul connects it with the headship issue in 1Cor 11. I know this is a very touchy subject but we need to look at it deeply I think. Mostly this "because of the angels " is left as an obscure scripture that seems unrelated to the subject of headship but I think it's the heart of the matter and goes back to when satan fell imo. It's an interesting study.

No doubt there is some significance to Paul's mention of angels, but I would have to study up on it before I could offer an opinion.
As this issue Paul is dealing with is NOT married couples, I see no headship issue as you seem to surmise. I'm watching baseball just now but will take a look at this and offer my take on it later. :shades

 

[Deborah13]

Stan if Paul is dealing with a cultural issue why does he talk about headship and the created order ?

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:7-10 KJV For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (8) For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. (9) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (10) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.



This connection with the angels may be pivotal to the discussion especially since Paul connects it with the headship issue in 1Cor 11. I know this is a very touchy subject but we need to look at it deeply I think. Mostly this "because of the angels " is left as an obscure scripture that seems unrelated to the subject of headship but I think it's the heart of the matter and goes back to when satan fell imo. It's an interesting study.

KJV
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
YLT
1Co 11:3 and I wish you to know that of every man the head is the Christ, and the head of a woman is the husband, and the head of Christ is God.

The created order is for one man to have one woman, one husband to have one wife.

This idea that a woman would be subject to all men is not the created order at all. Maybe that idea is what brought about polygamy.
I don't think your pastor would agree that you have headship over his wife?

 

[agua.]

To educate those who don't know about those things, as they are new converts. It would be wrong to assume Paul is ONLY dealing with a single issue here in chapter 11. Paul always makes multiple points in his epistles.

I don't think Paul is dealing with only one issue here but the context is headship Stan in the passages we're discussing and refer back to the created order. .

1Co 11:3 KJV But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:7 KJV For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1Co 11:10 KJV For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

No doubt there is some significance to Paul's mention of angels, but I would have to study up on it before I could offer an opinion.
As this issue Paul is dealing with is NOT married couples, I see no headship issue as you seem to surmise. I'm watching baseball just now but will take a look at this and offer my take on it later. :shades

Stan I'm not sure how we can't see the headship issue here when the passage is about headship and authority. Can you tell me what the message is in your opinion? I'm also interested in how you will tie the Angels into the message.

Thanks mate.

 

[agua.]

KJV
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
YLT
1Co 11:3 and I wish you to know that of every man the head is the Christ, and the head of a woman is the husband, and the head of Christ is God.

The created order is for one man to have one woman, one husband to have one wife.

This idea that a woman would be subject to all men is not the created order at all. Maybe that idea is what brought about polygamy.
I don't think your pastor would agree that you have headship over his wife?

No Deb the passage doesn't suggest I have authority over the Pastor's wife she already has her covering/husband in the Pastor. It also doesn't suggest all men have authority over all women but only the head ( here it seems to be the husband ). Paul is talking about the created order and at that time there was only one man and one woman. From what I can tell woman in the passage is referring to wife ( as Eve was ) but it will also have ramifications on unmarried women I'm sure. This would likely be submission to the Dad etc.

Polygamy mostly came about because a woman couldn't support herself way back and men took more than one wife. Some men did it with good intention and some for power and status imo.

G1135
γυνή
gunē
goo-nay'
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

What about that verse that says that all are equal in the sight of God? Galatians 3:28? How can we clearly define what Paul means by "the head of the woman"?

 

[Butch5]

Stan if Paul is dealing with a cultural issue why does he talk about headship and the created order ?

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:7-10 KJV For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (8) For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. (9) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (10) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.



This connection with the angels may be pivotal to the discussion especially since Paul connects it with the headship issue in 1Cor 11. I know this is a very touchy subject but we need to look at it deeply I think. Mostly this "because of the angels " is left as an obscure scripture that seems unrelated to the subject of headship but I think it's the heart of the matter and goes back to when satan fell imo. It's an interesting study.

Hi Dave,

Actually, it's an important point that you bring up "because of the angels". I believe this is why Paul brought up the issue of the angels.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (Eph 3:8-11 KJV)

Paul says the intent is to make known to the principalities and powers in heavenly place the manifold wisdom of God and that He is doing it through the Church. He is using Christians to show to the angels his manifold wisdom according to His eternal purpose. This is really an important subject because when we disobey and don't do as Scripture commands we are showing the angel the wrong message. I believe that is what Paul is getting at with the head covering. The head covering is for the woman to show that she is in submission to God's command. If she refuses the head covering she is not submitting to God. Think about Satan and the fallen angels what was their crime? They wouldn't submit to God.

 

[agua.]

What about that verse that says that all are equal in the sight of God? Galatians 3:28? How can we clearly define what Paul means by "the head of the woman"?

Gal 3:28 is in the same vein as 1Cor 11: 11

Gal 3:28-29 KJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Co 11:11 KJV Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

We're all one in Christ and heirs of Salvation but this doesn't remove the headship arrangement otherwise it would also mean we aren't submissive to Yahweh's headship as well.

 

[agua.]

Hi Dave,

Actually, it's an important point that you bring up "because of the angels". I believe this is why Paul brought up the issue of the angels.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (Eph 3:8-11 KJV)

Paul says the intent is to make known to the principalities and powers in heavenly place the manifold wisdom of God and that He is doing it through the Church. He is using Christians to show to the angels his manifold wisdom according to His eternal purpose. This is really an important subject because when we disobey and don't do as Scripture commands we are showing the angel the wrong message. I believe that is what Paul is getting at with the head covering. The head covering is for the woman to show that she is in submission to God's command. If she refuses the head covering she is not submitting to God. Think about Satan and the fallen angels what was their crime? They wouldn't submit to God.

Yeah Butch I think this is the crux of the matter. satan wants us to disregard headship as he lied to Eve in the Garden and tempted her away from her head.

 

[Obadiah]

The thread now seems to be back on topic, Thanks everyone. As for NT Wright, if some of you want to discuss his theology it would be a good idea to start a new thread about that unless it's something directly related to the OP of this thread. Thanks.

 

[Deborah13]

No Deb the passage doesn't suggest I have authority over the Pastor's wife she already has her covering/husband in the Pastor. It also doesn't suggest all men have authority over all women but only the head ( here it seems to be the husband ). Paul is talking about the created order and at that time there was only one man and one woman. From what I can tell woman in the passage is referring to wife ( as Eve was ) but it will also have ramifications on unmarried women I'm sure. This would likely be submission to the Dad etc.

Polygamy mostly came about because a woman couldn't support herself way back and men took more than one wife. Some men did it with good intention and some for power and status imo.

G1135
γυνή
gunē
goo-nay'
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

Oh good. Thank you for clarifying your understanding.

 

[Butch5]

Oh good. Thank you for clarifying your understanding.

Hi Deb,

I would also add that it is not the man's place to "make" the woman submissive. She is to do that as she obeys God. Sometime this passage is used as a way for the man to gain control and that is "Not" what it is saying.

 

[Stan1953]

I don't think Paul is dealing with only one issue here but the context is headship Stan in the passages we're discussing and refer back to the created order. .
1Co 11:3 KJV But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:7 KJV For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 11:10 KJV For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

The context of the first 13 verses is about women covering their heads in worship. Along with that Paul alludes to headship, yes, but v3 is more accurately rendered as husband and wife. It makes no sense to say EVERY woman's head is a man, if they're not married. Again the covering here is men and short hair verses women and long hair. V14-15 indicate that.
I'm not getting why you stress "created order"?

Stan I'm not sure how we can't see the headship issue here when the passage is about headship and authority. Can you tell me what the message is in your opinion? I'm also interested in how you will tie the Angels into the message.
Thanks mate.

I see headship as far as Paul mentions it, but it is not the main issue. Again Paul is dealing with issues that had been brought up to him so I can't tell what the particulars are because we don't have the correspondence that generated his response. The first issue was responding to the issue of women wearing either short hair or hair braided up into a knot. The other issue was the church abusing the Lord's Supper and using it as a type of pot luck dinner. Again I haven't had time to study the issue of angels.
As the RSB notes;

Many interpretations of this phrase have been suggested, but they are all speculative. Paul’s argument is closely tied to a specific historical situation, and we should be cautious about applying all its details universally.​

 

[Stan1953]

What about that verse that says that all are equal in the sight of God? Galatians 3:28? How can we clearly define what Paul means by "the head of the woman"?

IMO, reading a few translations that show this is in reference to a husband / wife relationship would be a good start. Men in general do NOT have authority or headship over women.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

I would also add that it is not the man's place to "make" the woman submissive. She is to do that as she obeys God. Sometime this passage is used as a way for the man to gain control and that is "Not" what it is saying.

Hi Butch, thanks for the post.
Yes, I agree and I am thankful that there are Godly men who understand this and a few who even teach it.

 

[agua.]

The context of the first 13 verses is about women covering their heads in worship. Along with that Paul alludes to headship, yes, but v3 is more accurately rendered as husband and wife. It makes no sense to say EVERY woman's head is a man, if they're not married. Again the covering here is men and short hair verses women and long hair. V14-15 indicate that.
I'm not getting why you stress "created order"?

The passage uses the head in different ways in this passage Stan to signify both the cranium and authority. This is why Paul first introduces the subject using the line of authority.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I stress the created order because this is the reason behind the head coverings.

1Co 11:7-10 KJV For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (8) For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. (9) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (10) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

This is directly from Genesis mate when Yahweh took Adam's ribs and made a help meet for him. What do you suggest this section means ?

Oh I explained to Deb in post #87 why the passage refers to women under authority of the husband ( or possibly father if unmarried )

No Deb the passage doesn't suggest I have authority over the Pastor's wife she already has her covering/husband in the Pastor. It also doesn't suggest all men have authority over all women but only the head ( here it seems to be the husband ). Paul is talking about the created order and at that time there was only one man and one woman. From what I can tell woman in the passage is referring to wife ( as Eve was ) but it will also have ramifications on unmarried women I'm sure. This would likely be submission to the Dad etc.

G1135
γυνή
gunē
goo-nay'
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

I see headship as far as Paul mentions it, but it is not the main issue. Again Paul is dealing with issues that had been brought up to him so I can't tell what the particulars are because we don't have the correspondence that generated his response. The first issue was responding to the issue of women wearing either short hair or hair braided up into a knot. The other issue was the church abusing the Lord's Supper and using it as a type of pot luck dinner. Again I haven't had time to study the issue of angels.
As the RSB notes;

Many interpretations of this phrase have been suggested, but they are all speculative. Paul’s argument is closely tied to a specific historical situation, and we should be cautious about applying all its details universally.​

What do you see the headship, as Paul mentions it, means ?

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Stan1953]

The thread now seems to be back on topic, Thanks everyone. As for NT Wright, if some of you want to discuss his theology it would be a good idea to start a new thread about that unless it's something directly related to the OP of this thread. Thanks.

Hey what happened to the LIKE button?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Hey what happened to the LIKE button?

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