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Paul getting rejected by all in Asia.

S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
NOTE - This is not an attack on christianity but a discussion on certain verses that should raise questions on the authenticity of Pauls apostlehood. The conclusions are reached not through personal opinion, but an evaluation of scripture itself.


Consider the words of Paul in his letter to the Ephesians...


Paul, an apostle of Yahshua by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus
- Ephesians 1:1


As some of you know, Ephesus was one of the seven churches located in Asia, according to the book of Revelations...


I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
- Revelation 1:10,11


This is what was said to the church of Ephesus, the very church that Paul tried to witness to (as seen the the quote from Ephesians)

I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.
- Revlations 2:2


Now here comes the best part....Paul writes that he was rejected by everybody in Asia! They did not accept what he taught!

This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me.
-2Timothy 1:15

Whats the big deal about all this, you ask?

Asia is where Ephesus was located! Ephesus rejected Paul and is being praised for testing 'those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars'.

You cant even say it was somebody other than Paul and his associates, who were found to be liars in Revelations 2:2, because...

a) Paul tried to witness to Ephesus
b) Paul himself says that he was rejected by Asia!
c) Ephesus is within Asia


Think!
The Ephesians did not accept Paul.
They were not rebuked in Revelations for doing so.
Rather they were being commended for doing so.


Discuss.
 
J

justvisiting

Guest
You know you ought to try a non-Christian site. Your derivations are offensive. Any Christian knows the difference between what Revelations said...and the fact that Paul was a REAL Apostle.
God deals with mockers. Something you should take into consideration.
You should check over some of the forum rules. A moderator might like to show you what we expect.
Blatant abuse of Christianity is not exactly someone I would roll out the welcome wagon for.
 

Tina

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^

So far , both you and Bodhi have done nothing but DISTORTED the Word of God , ie. the Bible.

:naughty

Reading the Bible is nothing like reading the Koran , for the BIble is a narrative and historial book about Christianity , while the Koran jumps from one thing to another that are unrelated. In order to understand bible sciptures , you got to read the entire context , ie. entire chapters or entire books. You have taken both Revelations 2:2 and 2 Timothy 1:15 out of context , but I am not interested in discussing anything with you as you seem to lack sincerity in knowing the truths.



.
 

researcher

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sk0rpi0n said:
NOTE - This is not an attack on christianity but a discussion on certain verses that should raise questions on the authenticity of Pauls apostlehood. The conclusions are reached not through personal opinion, but an evaluation of scripture itself.


Consider the words of Paul in his letter to the Ephesians...


Paul, an apostle of Yahshua by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus
- Ephesians 1:1


As some of you know, Ephesus was one of the seven churches located in Asia, according to the book of Revelations...


I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
- Revelation 1:10,11


This is what was said to the church of Ephesus, the very church that Paul tried to witness to (as seen the the quote from Ephesians)

I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.
- Revlations 2:2


Now here comes the best part....Paul writes that he was rejected by everybody in Asia! They did not accept what he taught!

This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me.
-2Timothy 1:15

Whats the big deal about all this, you ask?

Asia is where Ephesus was located! Ephesus rejected Paul and is being praised for testing 'those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars'.

You cant even say it was somebody other than Paul and his associates, who were found to be liars in Revelations 2:2, because...

a) Paul tried to witness to Ephesus
b) Paul himself says that he was rejected by Asia!
c) Ephesus is within Asia


Think!
The Ephesians did not accept Paul.
They were not rebuked in Revelations for doing so.
Rather they were being commended for doing so.


Discuss.

Other apostles were with him.

2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
2Ti 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
 
S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
Tina said:
^

You have taken both Revelations 2:2 and 2 Timothy 1:15 out of context , but I am not interested in discussing anything with you as you seem to lack sincerity in knowing the truths.
]

I am not taking anything out of context. I am simply repeating what revelations says...

...that Ephesus (located in Asia) is being commended for rejecting "false apostles".
And who is the only person that the bible says was rejected by Asia?
Paul! In his own words!

If you have a problem with me saying these things, then you have a problem with the bible, becaue I am simply quoting it.
 
S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
justvisiting said:
You know you ought to try a non-Christian site. Your derivations are offensive. Any Christian knows the difference between what Revelations said...and the fact that Paul was a REAL Apostle.
God deals with mockers. Something you should take into consideration.
You should check over some of the forum rules. A moderator might like to show you what we expect.
Blatant abuse of Christianity is not exactly someone I would roll out the welcome wagon for.

I am not trying to offend, AND neither am I mocking.
I am simply making my conclusions from the words in the bible.
Yes, I know this is a christian site, and I am aware of the rules here, but if you can use the bible to prove me wrong about Paul, Asia and Ephesus... please do so.
 

Tina

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sk0rpi0n said:
I am not taking anything out of context. I am simply repeating what revelations says...

...that Ephesus (located in Asia) is being commended for rejecting "false apostles".
And who is the only person that the bible says was rejected by Asia?
Paul! In his own words!

If you have a problem with me saying these things, then you have a problem with the bible, becaue I am simply quoting it.


How will you like it if I open the pages of Koran by random and see the word "evil" on one page , then turn to another page where I see the word "Allah" or "Muhammad" , then I simply jolly-well combine the two and criticize the Koran by saying that "Allah is evil" or "Muhammad is evil" !

......... :biglol ........... :screwloose


That's exactly what you are doing with the Bible. Taking two differnt verses and unduly connecting them according to your whims and fancies so that Paul appears to be a false prophet rejected by Asia in the end !



......... :screwloose ......... :chair
 
S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
Tina said:
How will you like it if I open the pages of Koran by random and see the word "evil" on one page , then turn to another page where I see the word "Allah" or "Muhammad" , then I simply jolly-well combine the two and criticize the Koran by saying that "Allah is evil" or "Muhammad is evil" !

That wont be saying much about your own thinking capacity. Go ahead. What Im doing is not as random as what you are saying. I am using Pauls own words and the words in the book of revelation.


Tina said:
That's exactly what you are doing with the Bible. Taking two differnt verses and unduly connecting them according to your whims and fancies so that Paul appears to be a false prophet rejected by Asia in the end ![/color][/b][/size]

Paul himself says he was rejected by all of Asia. Paul is saying this...not me.
And revelations shows that the Ephesians (in Asia) were being congratulated for doing so. Revelations says so....not me.
So, how am I taking verses out of context?

Learn to defend your stance instead of accusing me of things.
 

Joe67

Member
Messages
654
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Here are a few other testimonies that will aid in these questions.

Acts 21:27-28
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. KJV

Acts 24:17-21
17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.

18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.

19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.

20 Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council,

21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day. KJV

Acts 23:6
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. KJV

Joe
 

Tina

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^

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.



Guess who wrote this scripture ? ...... PAUL !


.
 
S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
Point really being that the Ephesians are the only ones among the 7 churches in Asia that Paul witnessed to....
And it so happens that the Ephesians are the ones being congratulated in revelations, for rejecting false apostles. (All of Asia rejected Paul, and Ephesus was within Asia)

Its all there in the scriptures. I am not making any of this up and neither does it amount to taking verses "out of context" as some have alleged. They connect back to each other like 2 pieces of a jigsaw.

Instead of accusing me of things, I ask people to counter the OP with an argument that proves that Paul and his associates are not the ones being spoken of in Rev 2:2.

(hint - there is no record in the bible of anybody else except Paul witnessing to the Ephesians.....and getting rejected!)
 

Tina

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^

Revelations 2:2
I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.



There were OTHER people that posed as false apostles, as Paul identified in 2 Corinthians 11:13.


.
 
S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
Paul warning about false prophets does nothing to change the fact that he was rejected by Ephesus in Asia, and that same Ephesus was later commended for rejecting false apostles.

Even Jesus warned about false prophets and it could well apply to you-know-who.
 
S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
Tina, imagine an 'apostle' named Bob who witnesses to Brazil, which is in South America.
And later, Bob writes that he was rejected by everyone in South America..

And then later, you read that Brazil (which is in South America) is commended by God for rejecting false apostles...wouldnt you question whether or not Bob is an apostle????

Now replace
Bob with Paul,
Brazil with Ephesus
South America with Asia....

this is exactly what is happening with Paul and Asia.
He was rejected by Asia and Ephesus(in Asia) was being commended for rejecting false apostles.

Just do the math!
 

Tina

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^

2 Timothy 1:15

(NKJV)
This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

(NIV)
You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.



The Christians in Ephesus and in the province of Asia where Ephesus stood had so thoroughly abandoned Paul that he could say all had turned from him. Paul may have meant all the leaders or his former colleagues who had left him by himself in prison in Rome. Probably not all of these people had turned from the gospel; the statement is probably hyperbolic. Timothy was the last to maintain his loyalty to and support of Paul among that group, and he was now feeling temptation to abandon him. Phygelus and Hermogenes' names occur nowhere else in Scripture. They had been strong supporters of the apostle in the past but had eventually turned from him as the rest.

.
 
S

sk0rpi0n

Guest
Tina said:
Paul may have meant all the leaders or his former colleagues who had left him by himself in prison in Rome. Probably not all of these people had turned from the gospel; the statement is probably hyperbolic.

May have? Probably not all??? Youre relying on speculation.

Im relying on Pauls own words - "All of Asia have turned away from me".

Had he said "all the leaders" or "all my colleagues", I may have re-considered....

Further, take note that Paul does not say "all in Asia have turned away from Jesus or the gospel"...but he implies that they have turned away from him.

Surely, Asia did not turn away from the gospel, because the beginning of the revelations shows letters directed towards the churches in Asia...of which Ephesus was the first on the list.

So the problem falls back on Pauls head....because the Ephesus that he had witnessed to and was rejected by is the SAME Ephesus that is getting commended for rejecting false apostles.
 

Tina

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^

During this time, Paul ended up in Rome as a prisoner again under Emperor Nero. He had already had his initial hearing and was awaiting trial when he wrote this epistle. He believed that the Roman authorities would execute him soon. Ever since Rome had burned in July of A.D. 64 and Nero had blamed the Christians, it had become dangerous to be a Christian. It was also dangerous to have contact with leaders of the church such as Paul. Consequently many believers, including some of Paul's coworkers, had chosen to seek a much lower profile and become less aggressive in their ministries. Timothy faced temptation to do the same. Paul wrote this epistle to urge him to remain faithful to his calling and loyal to his father in the faith. Timothy needed to stand shoulder to shoulder with Paul and the other believers and to continue to "preach the Word" as he had done.


.
 

Vic C.

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We've been down this road over and over, which is why we amended the TOS in the first place.

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Statement of Faith

We consider Paul's writings to be part of the inspired Word of God. This is a Christian forum and any posting(s) that is intended to purposely distort Paul's writings will not be tolerated.

Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. This includes promotion of homosexual behavior. Individual restrictions may apply on a Forum to Forum basis. Please check the announcements and stickies at the top of each Forum.
If you want to be a Judaizer and ignore Paul's unique role to the Gentiles given to him by Jesus Himself, fine. However, we will not tolerate rejection of Paul's gospel message. We here at this Site consider his writings as canonized scripture. Continued attempts to violate the first rule of our TOS will result in a penalty of either suspension or banning.

You may then go stand in the misconduct line with Serena. :salute
 

Rajesh Sahu

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QUOTE="sk0rpi0n, post: 367154"]
I am not taking anything out of context. I am simply repeating what revelations says...

...that Ephesus (located in Asia) is being commended for rejecting "false apostles".
And who is the only person that the bible says was rejected by Asia?
Paul! In his own words!

If you have a problem with me saying these things, then you have a problem with the bible, becaue I am simply quoting it.
[/QUOTE]
NOTE - This is not an attack on christianity but a discussion on certain verses that should raise questions on the authenticity of Pauls apostlehood. The conclusions are reached not through personal opinion, but an evaluation of scripture itself.


Consider the words of Paul in his letter to the Ephesians...


Paul, an apostle of Yahshua by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus
- Ephesians 1:1


As some of you know, Ephesus was one of the seven churches located in Asia, according to the book of Revelations...


I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
- Revelation 1:10,11


This is what was said to the church of Ephesus, the very church that Paul tried to witness to (as seen the the quote from Ephesians)

I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.
- Revlations 2:2


Now here comes the best part....Paul writes that he was rejected by everybody in Asia! They did not accept what he taught!

This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me.
-2Timothy 1:15

Whats the big deal about all this, you ask?

Asia is where Ephesus was located! Ephesus rejected Paul and is being praised for testing 'those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars'.

You cant even say it was somebody other than Paul and his associates, who were found to be liars in Revelations 2:2, because...

a) Paul tried to witness to Ephesus
b) Paul himself says that he was rejected by Asia!
c) Ephesus is within Asia

Think!
The Ephesians did not accept Paul.
They were not rebuked in Revelations for doing so.
Rather they were being commended for doing so.


Discuss.
What you say is precisely in the Bible. You have accurately represented the truth contained in the verses. Ephesians did reject Paul and Jesus commended them for exposing false apostles in Revelation 2:2. I leave the inference of that praise of Christ on/ of Ephesians to the reader.
It is up to the diligent reader of the Bible what they make of it. I would like to add though that Revelation 21:14 reveals "The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." But by Paul's own submissions, he was also an apostle. So there were thirteen apostles, which includes Matthias, handpicked by the eleven remaining apostles to replace Judas after Judas chose to betray Jesus and subsequently committed suicide. Here is the account of Matthias being appointed to replace judas by the eleven apostles of Christ (Acts 1:21–26). When I researched the subject I found that got questions. org also could not place Paul as the twelfth apostle BUT Matthias, who was handpicked 11 of Christ https://www.gotquestions.org/Matthias-Judas-Paul.html
"Was Matthias or Paul God’s choice to replace Judas as the 12th apostle?"
the bottom line of got questions.org answer is "it likely will be Matthias". Wonder why paul was never mentioned in the book of Revelation, neither his name included in names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb in Revelation 21:14.

I cannot go further than this, although I would have liked to because I love this forum and my Lord Jesus Christ and would not like to be segregated from it. I have learned depths of Christian faith from this forum/ website. I thank this august forum for the teachings of Christ I have gleaned from it. I have, in humility I submit, contributed my bit as well. God bless all. may the Lord Jesus's blessings be upon all /\​
 
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