Paul getting rejected by all in Asia.

[jaybird]

i have always been on the fence with Paul. if you look at Paul from a non bias view there are a lot of red flags. he gets rejected from the church in asia and then you have Jesus telling the church good job for rejecting false teachers. Jesus said the false teacher was a liar, the DSS refers to someone as a "spouter of lies" and ebionite writings speak of a liar, and you have Paul always starting off saying "i do not lie"? this "liar" in the DSS and ebionite writings would have been a real person that was very influential in the early days.

 

[WIP]

he gets rejected from the church in asia

He didn't get rejected by the churches in Asia. He was instructed by the Holy Spirit not to teach to them. I don't think Scripture tells us why the Holy Spirit did this but God's plan isn't always revealed to us for His ways are not our ways.

6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. 8 So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
Acts 16:6-8 NKJV

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

i have always been on the fence with Paul. if you look at Paul from a non bias view there are a lot of red flags. he gets rejected from the church in asia and then you have Jesus telling the church good job for rejecting false teachers. Jesus said the false teacher was a liar, the DSS refers to someone as a "spouter of lies" and ebionite writings speak of a liar, and you have Paul always starting off saying "i do not lie"? this "liar" in the DSS and ebionite writings would have been a real person that was very influential in the early days.

jaybird
I love that you've been searching the scriptures for the truth for your self, and that your here posting questions and also your opinions.

Why not consider posting some scriptures that validate your thinking, so we can respond to how you have come to your conclusions, and discuss it with you?
Maybe you can teach us something !!

God bless you, and thank you for blessing us with your being here.
My name is OLIGOS

 

[jaybird]

He didn't get rejected by the churches in Asia. He was instructed by the Holy Spirit not to teach to them. I don't think Scripture tells us why the Holy Spirit did this but God's plan isn't always revealed to us for His ways are not our ways.

6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. 8 So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
Acts 16:6-8 NKJV

ok but i am not talking about mysterious ways of the Lord, im talking about the bible and the bible is not supposed to be a mystery, its written for instruction.
i thought Paul said in 2 Tim 1 15 that all in Asia deserted him. what did he mean when he said that?

 

[jaybird]

for the most part i like Paul. the biggest reason i like him is the fact that he was not one of the 12 yet his works are considered scripture. there used to be other works like Paul, Clement, Hermas, etc, they were accepted as scripture until rome came along and condemed them, they didnt make it because they were not apostles (of the 12) yet Pauls works make it? Clement was even a bishop of rome, you would think they would have accepted their own, but if you read Clements writings you discover that he viewed James, not Peter as the leader (after Jesus) of the first church. rome could not have that. perfectly good scripture thrown aside because it interfered with papal succession. pitiful.

 

[WIP]

ok but i am not talking about mysterious ways of the Lord, im talking about the bible and the bible is not supposed to be a mystery, its written for instruction.
i thought Paul said in 2 Tim 1 15 that all in Asia deserted him. what did he mean when he said that?

Interesting. I didn't notice that before. Good question.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Interesting. I didn't notice that before. Good question.

Yes Paul does say "You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes."
But the following words of Paul , also I find disturbing:
2 Corinthians 12 : 11 where he takes a dig at the handpicked apostles of Jesus and calls them "super apostles ":
" I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing."
And the in 2 Cor 12:16 he calls himself crafty and says he used trickery (???)
2 Corinthians 12 :15-16
"If I love you more, will you love me less? Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery"

In Galatians 2:11-13 Paul condemned Peter and accused him of hypocrisy:

"11When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.…"

 

[Hospes]

2 Corinthians 12 : 11 where he takes a dig at the handpicked apostles of Jesus and calls them "super apostles ":
" I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing."
And the in 2 Cor 12:16 he calls himself crafty and says he used trickery (???)
2 Corinthians 12 :15-16
"If I love you more, will you love me less? Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery"

Much of chapter 11 and 12 seems clearly to be Paul writing "tongue in cheek." It is a way of making the opposite point of the one the writer is literally stating. It is often used when a peron is unjustly or mistakenly accused. For instance, if someone accuses me of a lack of backpacking knowledge and I reply "Oh yes, I'm just a mere babe in the woods!", I am saying one thing but meaning the opposite. It seems pretty obvious this is Paul's intention in writing such things as "crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!"

In Galatians 2:11-13 Paul condemned Peter and accused him of hypocrisy:

"11When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.…"

Peter caved to his fear of men and Paul called him out on it. So what did Paul do wrong? Was Peter beyond sin? If not, when he sins, isn't it right for a brother to admonish him and call him to repentence?

 

[Hospes]

for the most part i like Paul. the biggest reason i like him is the fact that he was not one of the 12 yet his works are considered scripture. there used to be other works like Paul, Clement, Hermas, etc, they were accepted as scripture until rome came along and condemed them, they didnt make it because they were not apostles (of the 12) yet Pauls works make it? Clement was even a bishop of rome, you would think they would have accepted their own, but if you read Clements writings you discover that he viewed James, not Peter as the leader (after Jesus) of the first church. rome could not have that. perfectly good scripture thrown aside because it interfered with papal succession. pitiful.

Throughout church history, Paul's letters were accepted in all major lists of what was considered scripture. This goes back as far as the 3rd century. The fringes of the lists changed, but interestingly, Paul's material was never questioned in any significant degree.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Much of chapter 11 and 12 seems clearly to be Paul writing "tongue in cheek." It is a way of making the opposite point of the one the writer is literally stating. It is often used when a peron is unjustly or mistakenly accused. For instance, if someone accuses me of a lack of backpacking knowledge and I reply "Oh yes, I'm just a mere babe in the woods!", I am saying one thing but meaning the opposite. It seems pretty obvious this is Paul's intention in writing such things as "crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!"

Peter caved to his fear of men and Paul called him out on it. So what did Paul do wrong? Was Peter beyond sin? If not, when he sins, isn't it right for a brother to admonish him and call him to repentence?

Wonder what the Lord Jesus thinks of these words of Paul when we see Him on the last day. It's strange that Jesus makes no mention of Paul in His ministry , in His lifespan as human ,or during His first coming , when he returned back after resurrection and interacted with His disciples . Neither does He mention about Paul in the future coming, book of revelation, goes on to congratulate Church of Ephesus in Revelation 2:2 , for exposing false apostles. and Revelation 21:14 reveals there will be names of 12 Apostles of the Lamb on the 12 foundations of New Jerusalem. What happened to the thirteenth Apostle Saint Paul, I wonder .
I wonder why other apostles did not use " tongue in cheek " strategy / style . Was it because of Jesus's caveat in Matthew 5:37 " Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."
Tongue in cheek style was not what Jesus taught His disciples / followers .
And the Spirit of Christ guided to the election of Matthias as the twelfth apostle to replace Judas in Acts 1:12-26

 

[Hospes]

Wonder what the Lord Jesus thinks of these words of Paul when we see Him on the last day.

I have no idea what Jesus thinks of Paul's words. Do you? If so, let your "yes" be "yes" and state it plainly. What you allude to reads like an insinuation.

It's strange that Jesus makes no mention of Paul in His ministry , in His lifespan as human ,or during His first coming , when he returned back after resurrection and interacted with His disciples . Neither does He mention about Paul in the future coming, book of revelation, goes on to congratulate Church of Ephesus in Revelation 2:2 , for exposing false apostles. and Revelation 21:14 reveals there will be names of 12 Apostles of the Lamb on the 12 foundations of New Jerusalem. What happened to the thirteenth Apostle Saint Paul, I wonder .

Jesus also makes no mention of James, Barnabas, Stephen, Phillip, or Billy Graham. What are you insinuating?

{Jesus} goes on to congratulate Church of Ephesus in Revelation 2:2 , for exposing false apostles.

Let's lay this one to rest. Yes, Paul spent time at Ephesus. (He was God's instrument to deliver the fulless of the Holy Spirit to the church there. See Acts 19) Yes, according to Revelation 2:2 the church at Ephesus rejected false apostles. But to connect the Apostle Paul with the Revelation passage is comepletely at odds with the scripture and Church history.

Q: Who is Paul writing to when writing that all in Asia turned away from him?​

A: Timothy.​

Q: Where is Timothy when Paul is writing to him?​

A: Ephesus!​

Q: How did the Elders of the church in Ephesus react upon learning they would never see Paul again?​

A: "And there was much weeping on the part of all; they embraced Paul and kissed him, being sorrowful most of all because of the word he had spoken, that they would not see his face again. And they accompanied him to the ship. (Acts 20:37–38)​

So what happenned? After weeping over never seeing Paul again they met together and decided he was actually a false apostle??!!

Tongue in cheek style was not what Jesus taught His disciples / followers .

From this passage, do you believe that Jesus truly thought the Pharisees "well" and "righteous", or do you think he was possibly using tongue in cheek?

And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:11–13)​

Finally, beside the Twelve, who was called apostles? :

• Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,... (Hebrews 3:1)
• But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and..." (Acts 14:14)
• But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:19)

Note Jesus, Paul, Barnabas, and James are called apostles in these passages. Seems to me, there was definitely the Twelve Apostles and they hold a unique position in the Church, but beyond that the word apostle was used more broadly for describing someone who had literally seen the Lord and was "sent out" for the sake of the Gospel. So I have no issue with Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles.

Sure hope all this provides some clarity.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It's strange that Jesus makes no mention of Paul in His ministry , in His lifespan as human ,or during His first coming , when he returned back after resurrection and interacted with His disciples .

Of course Jesus mentioned Paul to Ananias pretty clearly (which apparently wasn't important enough for you to mention - Acts 9:10-15)

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I have no idea what Jesus thinks of Paul's words. Do you? If so, let your "yes" be "yes" and state it plainly. What you allude to reads like an insinuation.

Jesus also makes no mention of James, Barnabas, Stephen, Phillip, or Billy Graham. What are you insinuating?

Let's lay this one to rest. Yes, Paul spent time at Ephesus. (He was God's instrument to deliver the fulless of the Holy Spirit to the church there. See Acts 19) Yes, according to Revelation 2:2 the church at Ephesus rejected false apostles. But to connect the Apostle Paul with the Revelation passage is comepletely at odds with the scripture and Church history.

Q: Who is Paul writing to when writing that all in Asia turned away from him?​

A: Timothy.​

Q: Where is Timothy when Paul is writing to him?​

A: Ephesus!​

Q: How did the Elders of the church in Ephesus react upon learning they would never see Paul again?​

A: "And there was much weeping on the part of all; they embraced Paul and kissed him, being sorrowful most of all because of the word he had spoken, that they would not see his face again. And they accompanied him to the ship. (Acts 20:37–38)​

So what happenned? After weeping over never seeing Paul again they met together and decided he was actually a false apostle??!!

From this passage, do you believe that Jesus truly thought the Pharisees "well" and "righteous", or do you think he was possibly using tongue in cheek?

And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:11–13)​

Finally, beside the Twelve, who was called apostles? :

• Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,... (Hebrews 3:1)
• But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and..." (Acts 14:14)
• But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:19)

Note Jesus, Paul, Barnabas, and James are called apostles in these passages. Seems to me, there was definitely the Twelve Apostles and they hold a unique position in the Church, but beyond that the word apostle was used more broadly for describing someone who had literally seen the Lord and was "sent out" for the sake of the Gospel. So I have no issue with Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles.

Sure hope all this provides some clarity.

I have gone to India to evangelize. Maybe I'm also an apostle

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I have gone to India to evangelize. Maybe I'm also an apostle

How effective was your ministry?? That would be the answer to your question.

 

[WIP]

Yes Paul does say "You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes."
But the following words of Paul , also I find disturbing:
2 Corinthians 12 : 11 where he takes a dig at the handpicked apostles of Jesus and calls them "super apostles ":
" I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing."
And the in 2 Cor 12:16 he calls himself crafty and says he used trickery (???)
2 Corinthians 12 :15-16
"If I love you more, will you love me less? Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery"

In Galatians 2:11-13 Paul condemned Peter and accused him of hypocrisy:

"11When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.…"

It just happened that this past Sunday morning, we were studying from Acts, chapters 18, 19, and 20 and in these chapters it speaks about all of Asia hearing the gospel and as usual not all believed and those did reject Paul. Perhaps, it's all in God's timing.

 

[JLB]

i thought Paul said in 2 Tim 1 15 that all in Asia deserted him. what did he mean when he said that?

Because he was in chains in prison, many deserted him, believing the lies of Rome’s about Christians rather than examining the fruit of a life spent on God, and His purpose.



Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus. 2 Timothy 1:13-18





JLB

 

[Hospes]

How effective was your ministry?? That would be the answer to your question.

I do hope RS's ministry was effective, but I am not sure the power of God being demonstrated through one of His servants necessarily says anything about the servant. This is not a putdown at all of Rajesh Sahu, it's just that the power of God is not thwarted by the instrument He uses to display it. In the Bible we find God using animals, evil kings, and uneducated simple fishermen to do great things. When God effectively uses one of us, we really need to recognize it is God at work in us, to will and to do His good pleasure and He gets ALL the credit/glory.

Bob, I probably read too much into your comment. My apologies if I did. (Just saw the door cracked open enough to make a point and took the opportunity to do so!)

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

How effective was your ministry?? That would be the answer to your question.

I really do not know, finally how effective my evangelism was. But I shared the gospel sincerely and passionately. The little regret I have is I would like to tell them it's not just Faith alone, but Obedience which is equally important . At that time ( 2007- 2010) I used to evangelize as my Church taught me to. It was much later I realized, and most because of some absolutely wonderful contributors on this very website, Our forum, in 2017 November that Obedience is vital for salvation. From that point onward's as I started studying Christ's words more and more , it finally dawned on me it was a message of LOVE. The entire message can be (most amazingly !)reduced to one Word...LOVE . The Word Himself is Love , because He and Father are one ( John 10 :30), and 1John 4:8 tells us God is Love.
Jesus informed the people He had not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it . Jesus also said Universe itself can go , but Lae given by God cannot go. But yes the Good Lord our savior and shepherd taught us HOW we could fulfill the Demand, the Requirement of Law. Again it was through Love . In Matthew 22: 37 Jesus says Love God

How effective was your ministry?? That would be the answer to your question.

Just wondering if you have evengelized in a foreign country, which is overwhelmingly non Christian Bob. If yes, was it fruitful?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Just wondering if you have evengelized in a foreign country, which is overwhelmingly non Christian Bob. If yes, was it fruitful?

No

 

[Star2019]

Not true.

The false apostles in Asia were so called “Jews” who were found out to be false apostles.

There were those in Asia who were ashamed of Paul’s chains, and imprisonment, and so they abandoned him while in prison.

This no more makes Paul a false Apostle than the cross makes Jesus Christ a false messiah, when all His disciples abandoned him.


This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus. 2 Timothy 1:15-18



You are on dangerous ground. Do not attempt to undermine the scriptures of the New Testament that Paul wrote, in any way.


Please read our statement of faith, and terms of service.


Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.The number 12 was everywhere in the Bible with Paul we have 13? if god didn’t sneak in his very own son greatest of all,why would he sneak in Paul He always told us what was to come he told us about Paul.

I’m gonna be praying for you.
The number 12 was everywhere in the Bible with Paul we have 13? if god didn’t sneak in his very own son greatest of all,why would he sneak in Paul He always told us what was to come he told us about Paul.

“Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV


“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭
“For even if you had ten thousand others to teach you about Christ, you have only one spiritual father. For I became your father in Christ Jesus when I preached the Good News to you.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

“Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This isn’t in Paul’s gospel.

“Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31‬ KJV



“but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬



Now we need to ask ourselves where in the Old Testament or in the things Jesus taught did Paul’s teachings about being able to eat meat sacrificed to idols and swine become fulfilled instead we find end time prophecy’s that paint a totally different picture than what Paul preached.



“At night they go out among the graves, worshiping the dead. They eat the flesh of pigs and make stews with other forbidden foods.”

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:4‬ ‭NLT‬‬



Important note:If you read The whole of Isaiah 65 you’ll find that God is telling us in this hour through Isaiah that HE NEVER TOLD us we could eat Unclean foods at anytime.



““On that day of judgment,” says the Lord, “I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs.”

‭‭Zephaniah‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭NLT‬‬