Paul the Tent Maker

[WalterandDebbie]

2 Corinthians 11

8 I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and was in want, I did not burden any one, for my needs were supplied by the brethren who came from Macedo′nia. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way.

another passage comes to mind....let me find it.

here it is.

2 Thessalonians 3

RSV

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, 8 we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. 9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living. 13 Brethren, do not be weary in well-doing.


I believe Paul was a tentmaker and used that as a tool when needed to help people come to know Christ.
(same way he used his citizenship and educational background as a mere tool to help him accomplish his ministry task)

Oh I agree with you on paying the preacher. We desire a full time pastor who has a certain level of education. Therefore we pay them a nice salary.

As far as Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, etc... they make me vomit.

Acts 18

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

18 After this he left Athens and went to Corinth. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>And he found a Jew named Aq′uila, a native of Pontus, lately come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them; <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them, and they worked, for by trade they were tentmakers. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>And he argued in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.

We believe that the above statements are true for the church today except for the tithes and offerings which is suppose to finance the church Malachi 3:1-18.

 

[Deborah13]

We believe that the above statements are true for the church today except for the tithes and offerings which is suppose to finance the church Malachi 3:1-18.

I'm not Jewish so I don't tithe under Jewish law but I didn't think the Jews tithed either anymore seeing there's no temple to tithe too, no Levites either.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I'm not Jewish so I don't tithe under Jewish law but I didn't think the Jews tithed either anymore seeing there's no temple to tithe too, no Levites either.

http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=toolbar-instant&hl=en&ion=1&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4MERD_enUS499US500#hl=en&tbo=d&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4MERD_enUS499US500&sclient=psy-ab&q=tithing%20and%20offerings%20in%20todays%20churches&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=3a809ef2ac4ff266&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.cGE&biw=1280&bih=540

 

[farouk]

I'm not Jewish so I don't tithe under Jewish law but I didn't think the Jews tithed either anymore seeing there's no temple to tithe too, no Levites either.

The tithes were supposed to be given to the Levites.

Where are the Levites in the church?

In this dispensation of grace, liberty rules in giving and there is nothing to stop motivated believers from giving even more than a tenth of their income. But it is not by way of a formal, legal, Levitical requirement.

 

[Deborah13]

The tithes were supposed to be given to the Levites.

Where are the Levites in the church?

In this dispensation of grace, liberty rules in giving and there is nothing to stop motivated believers from giving even more than a tenth of their income. But it is not by way of a formal, legal, Levitical requirement.

Agreed

 

[Deborah13]

http://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei....r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.cGE&biw=1280&bih=540

and your point is???

 

[Sparkey]

Technically most modern churches are not "businesses" like McDonalds or other "for profit" firms, but are incorporated today under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (at least in the U.S.). Such organizations are commonly called "charitable organizations" and must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), where none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual (including Pastors).

I think that Paul was talking about a Scriptural principle, not a legal mandate.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

My arguement is that Paul was an Apostle, and to note him and his profession as "tentmaker" is inaccurate. He made tents, but that was not his profession.

Funny that Dr. Luke would say he was a tent-maker then, isn't it? Paul himself made reference on at least one occasion that no one need provide for him, he took no money from the congregations for his own livelihood. He did not consider his preaching of the gospel his enterprise. In fact, he at times condemned those who would preach the gospel for money. The collections he took from the various churches were for the support of other churches, not himself. I don't think the subject is worthy of discussion.

 

[P31Woman]

You're putting words in the mouth of God.
Nothing in Acts 15 says they voted on anything.
It says they were all in agreement.
When was the last time you were in a business meeting at your church when everyone was in agreement?
I never have been.

You are joking? right?

 

[Slider]

Funny that Dr. Luke would say he was a tent-maker then, isn't it? Paul himself made reference on at least one occasion that no one need provide for him, he took no money from the congregations for his own livelihood. He did not consider his preaching of the gospel his enterprise. In fact, he at times condemned those who would preach the gospel for money. The collections he took from the various churches were for the support of other churches, not himself. I don't think the subject is worthy of discussion.

What's funnier is that Paul never said he was a tent maker, but always addressed himself as an Apostle. I'd like to see that reference where Paul said no one needed to provide for him. I'm pretty sure if he did it said or referenced "unworthily". In other words, if he didn't preach the Gospel, he wasn't worthy of pay. I'd also like to see where he took no money from the congregations for his own livelihood and where he condemned others who did so unworthily.

Now, he did occasionally metion taking offerings for other Churches, specifically for Jerusalem, as he did in 1 Cor 16. However, let's look at some other things Paul said concerning the matter.

Rom 13:6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

2 Cor 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

1 Cor 9:7-9, 14 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vinyard, and eateth not of the fruit therof? Or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I thses things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?.... Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Then in the next chapter, Paul explains the reason for taking that bounty, which was so he could travel to other regions with his travel expenses covered:

2 Cor 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:

2 Cor 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

Gal 6:6 let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Php 4:14-16 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

1 Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: for laboring night and day, because we would not be chargable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

I brought this one up (although it stands on it's own) to clarify what he said in 2 Thes 3:8: Neither did we eat any man's bread for naught; but wroght with labor and travail night and day, that we might not be chargable to any of you:

(Look at the underlined words... I don't know that he had much time for tent making!)

1Tim 5:17-18 let the elders that rule well be counted worth of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, the laborer is worth of his reward.

If you want to say this was meant for the elders, ok. Paul was also one and he said whoever labors in the word is worthy of his reward.

1 Tim 5:17-18 Bring Zenus the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them. And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Paul may not have been talking about himself, but he was saying that his servants in Christ should have their personal needs cared for on their journey.

Phm 1:22 But withal prepare me also a lodging: for I trust that though your prayers I shall be given unto you.


Not every epistle Paul wrote is represented in this list,but it’s pretty close. In all thescripture I listed Paul makes it very clear that a preacher is worthy of payfor his preaching to cover his travel and personal expenses.

I’m going to list one more set of verses from Jesus himself:

Mark 6:8-11 And[Jesus] commanded them that thy should take nothing for their journey, save astaff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse; But be shod withsandals; and not put on two coats. Andhe said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into a house, there abide tillye depart from that place. And whosoevershall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dustunder your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrahin the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luke 10:3-5 also documents this. Did you see that they were not to bring moneyor food with them? They were to besupported by the people the disciples preached to.

 

[farouk]

What's funnier is that Paul never said he was a tent maker, but always addressed himself as an Apostle. I'd like to see that reference where Paul said no one needed to provide for him. I'm pretty sure if he did it said or referenced "unworthily". In other words, if he didn't preach the Gospel, he wasn't worthy of pay. I'd also like to see where he took no money from the congregations for his own livelihood and where he condemned others who did so unworthily.

Now, he did occasionally metion taking offerings for other Churches, specifically for Jerusalem, as he did in 1 Cor 16. However, let's look at some other things Paul said concerning the matter.

Rom 13:6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

2 Cor 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

1 Cor 9:7-9, 14 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vinyard, and eateth not of the fruit therof? Or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I thses things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?.... Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Then in the next chapter, Paul explains the reason for taking that bounty, which was so he could travel to other regions with his travel expenses covered:

2 Cor 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:

2 Cor 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

Gal 6:6 let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Php 4:14-16 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

1 Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: for laboring night and day, because we would not be chargable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

I brought this one up (although it stands on it's own) to clarify what he said in 2 Thes 3:8: Neither did we eat any man's bread for naught; but wroght with labor and travail night and day, that we might not be chargable to any of you:

(Look at the underlined words... I don't know that he had much time for tent making!)

1Tim 5:17-18 let the elders that rule well be counted worth of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, the laborer is worth of his reward.

If you want to say this was meant for the elders, ok. Paul was also one and he said whoever labors in the word is worthy of his reward.

1 Tim 5:17-18 Bring Zenus the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them. And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Paul may not have been talking about himself, but he was saying that his servants in Christ should have their personal needs cared for on their journey.

Phm 1:22 But withal prepare me also a lodging: for I trust that though your prayers I shall be given unto you.


Not every epistle Paul wrote is represented in this list,but it’s pretty close. In all thescripture I listed Paul makes it very clear that a preacher is worthy of payfor his preaching to cover his travel and personal expenses.

I’m going to list one more set of verses from Jesus himself:

Mark 6:8-11 And[Jesus] commanded them that thy should take nothing for their journey, save astaff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse; But be shod withsandals; and not put on two coats. Andhe said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into a house, there abide tillye depart from that place. And whosoevershall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dustunder your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrahin the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luke 10:3-5 also documents this. Did you see that they were not to bring moneyor food with them? They were to besupported by the people the disciples preached to.

S:

"In other words, if he didn't preach the Gospel, he wasn't worthy of pay. I'd also like to see where he took no money from the congregations for his own livelihood and where he condemned others who did so unworthily."

Actually, he acknowledged a gift from the Philippians, but indicated he didn't really want it anyway; and the Philippians were apparently the only church that did remember him in this way.

 

[P31Woman]

S:

"In other words, if he didn't preach the Gospel, he wasn't worthy of pay. I'd also like to see where he took no money from the congregations for his own livelihood and where he condemned others who did so unworthily."

Actually, he acknowledged a gift from the Philippians, but indicated he didn't really want it anyway; and the Philippians were apparently the only church that did remember him in this way.

Oh yes those who were into greedy gain.

Was it the Philippians or those extremely poor Macedonians?

 

[Deborah13]

Oh yes those who were into greedy gain.

Was it the Philippians or those extremely poor Macedonians?

P31, please give me your take on what I am about to say as I value your input as well as others.

Paul was not the pastor/preacher of one church.
Paul was an apostle, disciple, evangelist.

To even compare Paul's ministry to that of a pastor of one congregation is a mistake to start with.

 

[P31Woman]

P31, please give me your take on what I am about to say as I value your input as well as others.

Paul was not the pastor/preacher of one church.
Paul was an apostle, disciple, evangelist.

To even compare Paul's ministry to that of a pastor of one congregation is a mistake to start with.

Thank you for the compliment. I value your options as well.

I agree. I believe his ministry was to take the good news to the gentiles and help start up Churches.

 

[Slider]

S:

"In other words, if he didn't preach the Gospel, he wasn't worthy of pay. I'd also like to see where he took no money from the congregations for his own livelihood and where he condemned others who did so unworthily."

Actually, he acknowledged a gift from the Philippians, but indicated he didn't really want it anyway; and the Philippians were apparently the only church that did remember him in this way.

I noted the scripture in Phillipeans (4:14-16). It is in verse 17 he says he didn't desire a gift (but he did accept it), but that he desired fruit abound in their account. That fruit was their giving.

 

[Deborah13]

I noted the scripture in Phillipeans (4:14-16). It is in verse 17 he says he didn't desire a gift (but he did accept it), but that he desired fruit abound in their account. That fruit was their giving.

So Slider, why are you comparing Paul's ministry support to that of a pastor's. I've been confused about this from the beginning of the thread and not seen this addresed. The ministries are very different. It would seem to be more relevent to give scripture that supports the support of pastors and others even in the congregation. If that is your intention, which is what I am understanding from the OP.

Please define what is the goal here. What is being determined?

 

[Slider]

So Slider, why are you comparing Paul's ministry support to that of a pastor's. I've been confused about this from the beginning of the thread and not seen this addresed. The ministries are very different. It would seem to be more relevent to give scripture that supports the support of pastors and others even in the congregation. If that is your intention, which is what I am understanding from the OP.

Please define what is the goal here. What is being determined?

In Eph 4:11 Paul lists 5 parts of the ministry as being Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Which of these do you feel Paul wasn't at one time or another? I suppose it would be a stretch to say he was a prophet, but he certainly was an Apostle, he fulfilled the role of an evangelist, he was a teacher (especially to Titus and Timothy) and since he started many Churches, he was their first Pastor.

Even so, my intention is to show that Paul (while he did make tents) it was not his profession and he was to be supported by the preaching and teaching he did. WHich of these 5 parts of the ministry do you feel should not be supported by their labor in the Word? All except perhaps teachers are by nature also preachers and all teach. The verses I gave cover all aspects of the ministry.

So I must say that your questions aren't relevant. It doesn't matter what his role was because all deserve financial support.

 

[Deborah13]

In Eph 4:11 Paul lists 5 parts of the ministry as being Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Which of these do you feel Paul wasn't at one time or another? I suppose it would be a stretch to say he was a prophet, but he certainly was an Apostle, he fulfilled the role of an evangelist, he was a teacher (especially to Titus and Timothy) and since he started many Churches, he was their first Pastor.

Even so, my intention is to show that Paul (while he did make tents) it was not his profession and he was to be supported by the preaching and teaching he did. WHich of these 5 parts of the ministry do you feel should not be supported by their labor in the Word? All except perhaps teachers are by nature also preachers and all teach. The verses I gave cover all aspects of the ministry.

So I must say that your questions aren't relevant. It doesn't matter what his role was because all deserve financial support.

All I asked was one question....what is your point, what are you trying to establish? I think that question is very relevent if this is to be a complete and productive discussion.
I see that you do not want any discussion really so I will with draw.

 

[Slider]

All I asked was one question....what is your point, what are you trying to establish? I think that question is very relevent if this is to be a complete and productive discussion.
I see that you do not want any discussion really so I will with draw.

I did answer your questions. You asked why I was comparing Paul's ministry to that of a Pastors. My response that with the exception of possibly being a prophet, Paul's ministry at one point or another was that of a Apostle, Pastor, Evangelist and a teacher. So since at times he was a pastor, I can' compare his ministry to that of a pastor.

Second, I noted the scriptures I gave apply to all of the 5 parts of the ministry. If nothing else, Gal 6:6 says to communicate good things to them that teach. All 5 parts teach, so it applies to all. Coupled with the fact that Paul was at one time or another fulfilling at least 4 of the 5, I don't see the relevance of your question.

So, just in case it isn't clear. Paul was an Apostle. He was an evangelist. He was a pastor. He was also a teacher. He may not have been a prophet, so I'll leave that out (although I can show he gave at least on prophecy).

I also clearly showed what my intentions were and what I was trying to establish. Paul made tents, but he was not a tent maker in the sense that he used it to support his well being. Through the scriptures I gave, he clearly used the offering to finance his travels, his food and his board.

So now it confuses me that you believe I don't want any discussion. I answered both your questions and have clearly defined my purposes and have supported them with scripture. If you feel I have not addressed a question, please let me know.

 

[Sparkey]

I think it's okay (and right) for Christians to support churches, and to support the idea of giving. Would you trade a pizza for a Lesson from the Lord? That's giving bread for spiritual bread. Giving bread for spiritual bread is a principle that Paul illuminated. The idea that he supported himself (to his credit) was given as contrast to what some may be doing (to their discredit) showing that he did not have a greed motive and guarded his ministry so that it could not be tainted by that accusation.

But Paul wasn't saying that people who are given the honor of being servants (like Pastors) should starve. The basic principle was that it was okay for a shepherd to drink milk and to wear clothing provided by the fruit if their labors (with the sheep). Pastors work. It is good for man to see the fruit of their labor. Paul may not have quoted Ecclesiastes 5:13-20, but we can be confident that he was familiar with it.