Paul the Tent Maker

[Deborah13]

Sorry, Deb, I didn't mean to make that read like I was responding to you in opposition. I was clarifying. Shoulda said that. My bad.

Not an issue and not offended.

 

[farouk]

It's interesting that for example in Acts 20, Paul exhorted the Ephesian elders (plural) to teach and care for the flock.

It didn't seem to be about appointing and paying one man; from the passage, it was about a plurality of men who were to care for and teach the flock. (Good passage to look at closely.)

Blessings.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

So what's your point? That pastor's should not be paid?

Yes

It is not 'my point' but Pauls point. "Follow our example"

Pastor/teacher is just one gift from the many gifts that we all have in Christ.
There can be many in the local Church, that have the gift of pastor/teacher, as well as prophets, evangelists, miracle worker, etc.. Having the gift of pastor/teacher does not automatically qualify someone to be an Elder in the Church, as nor does any of the other gifts.

A single (unmarried) person has more time to give to serving Christ Jesus, without the distractions of the needs

1Co 7:32 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
1Co 7:33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
1Co 7:34 and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

 

[farouk]

...and we also read that Peter's wife's mother was sick (Matthew 8.14). An inference is that public Christian ministry and family life can go together.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes

It is not 'my point' but Pauls point. "Follow our example"

Pastor/teacher is just one gift from the many gifts that we all have in Christ.
There can be many in the local Church, that have the gift of pastor/teacher, as well as prophets, evangelists, miracle worker, etc.. Having the gift of pastor/teacher does not automatically qualify someone to be an Elder in the Church, as nor does any of the other gifts.

A single (unmarried) person has more time to give to serving Christ Jesus, without the distractions of the needs

1Co 7:32 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
1Co 7:33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
1Co 7:34 and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

Would you pay for Bible study materials and classes?
Would you pay for marriage counseling?
Would you pay for childhood counseling?
Would you pay for a wedding officiate?
Would you pay for a funeral officiate?
Would you pay for.....the list could go on

If we want a man of God to give Godly counsel and teaching, to be available when our loved one wants a pastor to pray with them in the hospital or at home then we need to provide for this person for the service they render. A full-time pastor in all but the smallest congregations do not have time to work an outside job and do what the Lord (hopefully the Lord) has called them to do and the people need.

 

[farouk]

It's not a mere bureaucratic function, though. When politicians see it as such, and want to stipulate the parameters of what a perceived clergy ought to do, Christians are often the first to point out that it's not just a bureaucratic thing, but involves first and foremost a Godward anointing, which can never be reduced to mere paperwork.

 

[reba]

Dad was pastor for 50+ years. Small churches nonsporting...He had a full time job. Mostly working in mills or falling timber.
Dad gets up before sunrise to head to the 'woods'. No big deal most men in town did the same.... He gets back after a long day just like the rest of the guys...He sets to dinner phone rings Sally Jo is in tears seems her mother is heading to the hospital ... Pastor says I'll be right there. Dad leaves dinner and goes.... Pastor spends the hours in the ER ... Dad gets up before sunrise to head to the 'woods'..
Many of the 'calls' a pastor gets are emergency'sto those calling.... Jim calls because Mary is so very drunk ... The teenager has run off... What do we do we caught the boyfriend !! . Pastor the kids have been in a car wreck..... Answering the calls is what a pastor should do.

When dad reached retirement age , us kids were gone he was able to truly be a pastor full time. Holding a 'regular' job and being a pastor one can not give 100% to either. If it is at all possible pay your pastor a living wage.

 

[Deborah13]

It's interesting that for example in Acts 20, Paul exhorted the Ephesian elders (plural) to teach and care for the flock.

It didn't seem to be about appointing and paying one man; from the passage, it was about a plurality of men who were to care for and teach the flock. (Good passage to look at closely.)

Blessings.

Interestig farouk, I hadn't thought about this scripture. However, would you say that it is Necessary to have one that teaches the Word to all in a sermon and one who is available to do weddings etc. In all states that I know of a minister must be ordained to sign a marriage license.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Yes ... It is not 'my point' but Pauls point. "Follow our example"

As I've shown you, twice now, Paul's point was for the office of apostle, not pastor. They are not the same thing and in fact his words address the need to pay the pastor, but not the missionary (the office which has replaced asposteship today).

Pastor/teacher is just one gift from the many gifts that we all have in Christ.

It is obvious that not all are gifted the same. No, we are not all called to be pastors/teachers. We are each gifted separately, for the body is one, but the parts are many.

1 Corinthians 12
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
16 And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 If they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now there are many members, but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."​

Because we are many parts making one body, we are not all equally gifted. As Paul goes on to say in the next paragraph ...

27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. A nd I show you a still more excellent way.
​

Understanding comes with study.

 

[farouk]

Interestig farouk, I hadn't thought about this scripture. However, would you say that it is Necessary to have one that teaches the Word to all in a sermon and one who is available to do weddings etc. In all states that I know of a minister must be ordained to sign a marriage license.

Well, in Canada at least there can be a designated person who is recognized by the province, as the person who usually signs the wedding certificate. This does not mean that the authorities are thereby 'muscling in' and saying that in this local church the person much have an exclusively leading function in other worship and teaching activities.

Blessings.

 

[Slider]

That you are against it doesn't mean that his primary vocation wasn't tent-maker. It is clear from his writing that his preaching did not, in face, "pay for" anything. A man who was adamantly against the preaching of the gospel for money, particularly a man with Paul's integrity, would not view any kindness done to him because of his apostleship as remuneration.

He argues in 1 Corinthians 9 that he has the right to reap material things from others because he has sown spiritual things in them, but "Nevertheless. we do not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hinderance to the gospel" [vv. 9, 10, emphasis added]. He adds this thought in the same paragraph.

1 Corinthians 9 NASB
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
​

So, enough of the nonsense. Paul was not paid for his apostleship. End of discussion.

I gave you quotes from nearly EVERY ONE of Paul's epistles that says otherwise. If you would read 1 Corinthians 9 fully, you'd see that he was in full support of being compensated for the teaching (read verse 14). So yes, Paul WAS indeed paid! It's in almost every epistle.

 

[farouk]

Slider:

What about 1 Corinthians 9.18?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I gave you quotes from nearly EVERY ONE of Paul's epistles that says otherwise. If you would read 1 Corinthians 9 fully, you'd see that he was in full support of being compensated for the teaching (read verse 14). So yes, Paul WAS indeed paid! It's in almost every epistle.

You need to read that passage again. And Farouk is correct, the one verse after what I've quoted seals the deal.

1 Corinthians 9 NASB
18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
​

Done here. Arguing the same points over and over again is ... uh ... well ... pointless.

 

[Slider]

Slider:

What about 1 Corinthians 9.18?

I talked about that chapter.... That's the same one where he said don't muzzle the ox.. remember? Sure he didn't charge. That didn't stop him from talking about the importance of giving and it didn't stop him from accepting money, did it? Surely you are not going to rely on this verse and discount every other verse I gave, are you?

 

[farouk]

S: The labourer is indeed worthy of his hire; although Paul himself never sought reward for himself; and this is a good attitude to emulate.

Formal salaried clergy as opposed to servants of the Lord who receive freewill offerings, I don't really see in the New Testament.

 

[Slider]

You need to read that passage again. And Farouk is correct, the one verse after what I've quoted seals the deal.

1 Corinthians 9 NASB
18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
​

Done here. Arguing the same points over and over again is ... uh ... well ... pointless.

Again... hammer on one verse without reading the whole chapter... And ignore every other one of Paul's epistles.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

As I've shown you, twice now, Paul's point was for the office of apostle, not pastor. They are not the same thing and in fact his words address the need to pay the pastor, but not the missionary (the office which has replaced asposteship today).

Again I will repost:

Here is what Paul says: "For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example"

What is that example we are all called to follow, and are they any exemptions?

2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
2Th 3:9 not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.

It is obvious that not all are gifted the same. No, we are not all called to be pastors/teachers. We are each gifted separately, for the body is one, but the parts are many.

I never suggested that we are all gifted the same?

We are all gifted with some gift for the edification and building up the Body. Pastor/teacher is one of those gifts, and several in the local Body may all have this gift, as like any of the other many gifts.

There is no hint or suggestion that this 'pastor/teacher' gift is some high or full time office to be claimed.

The Church is overseen by several Elders, who qualify by their moral status (Timothy). The gifts are not based on any such qualification, but are freely given by the Holy Spirit as He wills.

 

[farouk]

I don't see in the New Testament some kind of reconstituted Levitical clergy paid for by tithing obligations, or such like. (Now if motivated Christians under grace want to give even more than a tenth of their income, then this is fine, but the New Testament doesn't seem to have a clergy that can oblige Christians to give them a formal salary in the manner of the Levites.)

 

[Mitspa]

I don't see in the New Testament some kind of reconstituted Levitical clergy paid for by tithing obligations, or such like. (Now if motivated Christians under grace want to give even more than a tenth of their income, then this is fine, but the New Testament doesn't seem to have a clergy that can oblige Christians to give them a formal salary in the manner of the Levites.)

You cant even find the tithe at all in the New Testament, except as an examlpe of Abrahams faith in the book of Hebrews. It is a commandment of law and it brings the curse of the law with it. Because one must keep all the law to be blessed by the law. Just as Paul said those who attempt to keep part of the law are cursed by the law.

Now I believe the tithe of faith is blessed if one give in faith, for God loves such a gift.

But again we have covetness and greed working in the church. We need bigger buildings and new carpet etc...
Alot of this is more about ego of a "pastor" or group than about the Kingdom of God.
So they teach law and curse the people, to please and promote themselves.

If a man of God needs to put others in bondage to promote his ministry or the doctrines of the group, there doctrines are wrong and the "man of God" is in error.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Again... hammer on one verse without reading the whole chapter... And ignore every other one of Paul's epistles.

Actually, I've quoted extensively from the one chapter in the New Testament in which Paul very clearly speaks against profiting from the gospel. You see fit to reject that by applying verses that, in reality, have nothing to do with Paul's teaching on the subject.

As I've said many times, I'm not going to rehash posts over and over again. I've given my observations, supported them with Scripture and stand on them as God's truth. If you do not wish to accept that, so be it. But I'm not going to go back and forth 15 times covering over the same turf. This is fellowship, not football, and my objective is not to win, but to edify. I've said all that needs to be said, and it is your prerogative to reject it. It is not my place to convict you, chastise you, or argue with you at the expense of fellowship. Done here. God bless you.