Paul the Tent Maker

[Slider]

Slider:

But Paul is not asking or expecting money for himself!

This would be a massive misreading of these passages, I think.</o</o</o

No, but he thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go before the Corinthians to make up beforehand their bounty. And he was the one who was going to use it to travel to regions beyond Corinth. It sounds like he was going to buy himself and his helps a boat ticket!

It wasn't for him.... He was using the money to go to Ephesus to preach and minister to the saints. It wasn't for him, but he was the one who was going to use it.

 

[farouk]

No, but he thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go before the Corinthians to make up beforehand their bounty. And he was the one who was going to use it to travel to regions beyond Corinth. It sounds like he was going to buy himself and his helps a boat ticket!

It wasn't for him.... He was using the money to go to Ephesus to preach and minister to the saints. It wasn't for him, but he was the one who was going to use it.

Slider: You are making it sound like he organized a collection to raise money for his fare.

Unless the person has already decided that this is what Paul did, it's hard to see how these passages can be read to see Paul doing this.

Sorry, no, I don't see it at all.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Come on, Allen! That's pretty rediculous! Did I ever mention you by name? Did you see where I said other people have brought up the subject in this thread? My objection is where people bring it up out of the blue, claim freedom from the law, but then don't excuse other things that were also in the law. That's hypocritical. So I am not judging you nor was I even speaking of you unless you are one of those who believes we aren't under the law so we don't have to tithe, BUT we do have to follow this or that commandment!

Sorry if I misunderstand you.

 

[Slider]

Slider: You are making it sound like he organized a collection to raise money for his fare.

Unless the person has already decided that this is what Paul did, it's hard to see how these passages can be read to see Paul doing this.

Sorry, no, I don't see it at all.

Do you agree that he did orgainize some sort of collection? Do you see where he said he intended to preach in regions beyond Corinth? It takes careful reading, Farouk. It's plainly what happened.

 

[farouk]

Do you agree that he did orgainize some sort of collection? Do you see where he said he intended to preach in regions beyond Corinth? It takes careful reading, Farouk. It's plainly what happened.

Slider: If you are really claiming that he was asking for money for himself, that he was organizing his fare, then I frank think you are plainly reading into the Scriptures something that is not there.

 

[JPPT1974]

God told Paul to preach where God wanted him to. As God wanted him to preach wherever and there were some places Paul thought God would want him to preach. But they were either dead ends or that God had something special for Paul to preach. Looking at it from God's POV!

 

[Slider]

Slider: If you are really claiming that he was asking for money for himself, that he was organizing his fare, then I frank think you are plainly reading into the Scriptures something that is not there.

Are you saying he wasn't in need of money for travel? It wasn't for himself it was for him to travel to spread the gospel. It was for the saints because they needed his help. But he was the one who was going to use the money given.

Let me ask this of you: You explain to me what 2 Cor 11:8 means when Paul said, "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service."

 

[Sparkey]

. o O (Why boil the milk of the Word here?)

Sorry, personal observation. Back to discussion with blessings for profitable use.

 

[Slider]

. o O (Why boil the milk of the Word here?)

Sorry, personal observation. Back to discussion with blessings for profitable use.

Just general conversation, here sparrowhawke... Unless you'd rather just talk about the weather....

 

[Sparkey]

It's a good discussion, especially if we can use it profitably. I like Jn 21:25 about all the books that should be written...

 

[farouk]

Are you saying he wasn't in need of money for travel? It wasn't for himself it was for him to travel to spread the gospel. It was for the saints because they needed his help. But he was the one who was going to use the money given.

Let me ask this of you: You explain to me what 2 Cor 11:8 means when Paul said, "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service."

Paul was a thief? No, he wasn't, he was using the language as a euphemism, to reinforce his point.

Paul received wages? no, he didn't, he was using the language as a euphemism, to reinforce his point.

In the end, our difference is dispensational, I guess. I just don't see Levitical clergy carried forward into the New Testament with the various social obligations of an earthly people. Rather, among a heavenly people, those who minister are fellow helpers to the truth; freewill offerings are the norm under grace (the gospel of the grace of God, as a doctrine, the great tentmaker apostle himself fully expounded).

The church and Israel really are distinct.

 

[Slider]

Paul was a thief? No, he wasn't, he was using the language as a euphemism, to reinforce his point.

Paul received wages? no, he didn't, he was using the language as a euphemism, to reinforce his point.

In the end, our difference is dispensational, I guess. I just don't see Levitical clergy carried forward into the New Testament with the various social obligations of an earthly people. Rather, among a heavenly people, those who minister are fellow helpers to the truth; freewill offerings are the norm under grace (the gospel of the grace of God, as a doctrine, the great tentmaker apostle himself fully expounded).

The church and Israel really are distinct.

So if he was just using the language as a euphemism when he said he robbed other churches, and he was just using language as a euphemism when he said he took wages, was it also just him using language as a euphemism when he said he did service to the Corinthians?

Farouk, look at the next verse... He distinctly says he received things necessary to his own well being from Macedonia. When we read Phillipians we know which Church sent it. So when he said he robbed other churches, yes, he was using a euphemism. Perhaps even in saying he received wages, but I don't think so.... He did receive some sort of support from Macedonia. Chances are it was financial support and it was sent to meet Paul's necessities. You can read about that in Php 4:15-16. That verse describes the "wages" he took.

As for you bringing up "levitical clergy".... I don't understand your point. I'm not saying it's a law and it must be done. I am saying it should be done! If you are taught in the word, support them that teaches you. Paul not only said he had the right to ask for it, he also DID ask for it on occasion, and received it with joy. He even explained it did more for them than it did for himself.

Overall, my main point is that whatever man of God you are under, he deserves to be supported. He shouldn't have to get a second job to meet his needs. If he does have to for the reason that the congregation is too small or too poor, fine. The preacher then can do what needs to be done. However, it's a disgrace if the congregation does have the means to support someone who is preaching the Words of eternal life, and doesn't.

And no.... It doesn't matter if he is an Apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist or teacher.

 

[farouk]

Slider: He should be supported, yes. There we agree, I think. A response of love from the served to the server.

 

[Slider]

Slider: He should be supported, yes. There we agree, I think. A response of love from the served to the server.

Fair enough...

 

[Deborah13]

Absolutely Deborah, it’ll be my pleasure! Do you want the short or long version? I’ll give you the short version for now and expand on it later if needed.


<o:pJust two, huh? Ok, they will need explaining and other scriptural support (even in the short answer) but here they are:</o
<o:p1. 2 Cor 9:5</o<o:p2. 2 Cor 11:9</o It is in 2 Cor 10:16 we see his intentions:

Thanks Slider, we agree on much but as for the offering in 2 Corinthians 9 we need to look back to chapter 8 as it is very clear that the offering is for those in Judah. We can verify that during this time period there was famine there. Paul points out that he will be coming with Titus and someone else who the churches in Macedonia have chosen themselves to accompany them. He makes it clear that the offering would arrive at the churches for the poor and needy as that is what it was being collected for. Chapter 8 tells it all.
2 Corinth. 10 and 11 is dedicated to once again establishing his authority as an apostle. He was continuely having problem with others presecuting him and trying to discredit him.

I agree it would appear that he did need added support even though he was making tents as he says he was in need. I also think the "robbed" and interesting statement as it shows how Paul felt about taking support from there other churches, at least in that he wasn't serving them at the time but those in Corinth. He obviously didn't like it. He may have been pointing out to them that others were doing what they should be doing and that's why he used the term "robbed".

Phil. 4:15-18 - We see that after Paul left Macedonia and went into Europe the church at Phillpi sent him an offering to help him in his travels and that they were the only ones.

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks Slider, we agree on much but as for the offering in 2 Corinthians 9 we need to look back to chapter 8 as it is very clear that the offering is for those in Judah. We can verify that during this time period there was famine there. Paul points out that he will be coming with Titus and someone else who the churches in Macedonia have chosen themselves to accompany them. He makes it clear that the offering would arrive at the churches for the poor and needy as that is what it was being collected for. Chapter 8 tells it all.
2 Corinth. 10 and 11 is dedicated to once again establishing his authority as an apostle. He was continuely having problem with others presecuting him and trying to discredit him.

I agree it would appear that he did need added support even though he was making tents as he says he was in need. I also think the "robbed" and interesting statement as it shows how Paul felt about taking support from there other churches, at least in that he wasn't serving them at the time but those in Corinth. He obviously didn't like it. He may have been pointing out to them that others were doing what they should be doing and that's why he used the term "robbed".

Phil. 4:15-18 - We see that after Paul left Macedonia and went into Europe the church at Phillpi sent him an offering to help him in his travels and that they were the only ones.

Very good points Deb, I believe you have represented the truth of those scriptures and the heart of Paul, as it relates to how he saw the purpose of giving and receiving. Like many issues of scriptures the whole counsel of scripture is given to help us see the intention of what is written. Even the communist quoted "if you dont work, you dont eat" but like all truth it must be judged by the context and the Divne Nature.

Faith working by love, is the end purpose of all scripture.

 

[Slider]

Thanks Slider, we agree on much but as for the offering in 2 Corinthians 9 we need to look back to chapter 8 as it is very clear that the offering is for those in Judah. We can verify that during this time period there was famine there. Paul points out that he will be coming with Titus and someone else who the churches in Macedonia have chosen themselves to accompany them. He makes it clear that the offering would arrive at the churches for the poor and needy as that is what it was being collected for. Chapter 8 tells it all.
2 Corinth. 10 and 11 is dedicated to once again establishing his authority as an apostle. He was continuely having problem with others presecuting him and trying to discredit him.

I agree it would appear that he did need added support even though he was making tents as he says he was in need. I also think the "robbed" and interesting statement as it shows how Paul felt about taking support from there other churches, at least in that he wasn't serving them at the time but those in Corinth. He obviously didn't like it. He may have been pointing out to them that others were doing what they should be doing and that's why he used the term "robbed".

Phil. 4:15-18 - We see that after Paul left Macedonia and went into Europe the church at Phillpi sent him an offering to help him in his travels and that they were the only ones.

Forgive me Deborah, but I am having a hard time finding where in 2 Cor 8 Paul said he intended the offering to go to Jerusalem or Judah or anywhere for famine relief. I actually don't see it at all in the 2nd epistle to the Corinthians. Perhaps you can more directly point it out to me?

 

[Deborah13]

Forgive me Deborah, but I am having a hard time finding where in 2 Cor 8 Paul said he intended the offering to go to Jerusalem or Judah or anywhere for famine relief. I actually don't see it at all in the 2nd epistle to the Corinthians. Perhaps you can more directly point it out to me?

Hmm..I'm getting old...excuses..not so clear but is the same offering as in scriptures below.
In 8 he reminds them about giving, tells he is sending Titus and I interpret 2 other trusted men from Macedonia to receive the collection from those in Corinth.

Romans 15:25-26

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>but now, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'>(A)</sup>I am going to Jerusalem <sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'>(B)</sup>serving the <sup class="footnote" value='[a]'>[a]</sup>saints. <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>For <sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'>(C)</sup>Macedonia and <sup class="crossreference" value='(D)'>(D)</sup>Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the <sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup>saints in Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:3

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>When I arrive, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'>(A)</sup>whomever you may approve, I will send them with letters to carry your gift to Jerusalem;


Also Paul mentions it in Acts 24:17- this same collection being taken to "his nation"

Achaia - Corinth
The famine itself is documented in historical records is my understanding but I can't remember where I read it. You might check with a few good commentaries, they may say.

I understand that all these scriptures are refering to one offering collected from several churches under Paul's requests.

 

[Deborah13]

Forgive me Deborah, but I am having a hard time finding where in 2 Cor 8 Paul said he intended the offering to go to Jerusalem or Judah or anywhere for famine relief. I actually don't see it at all in the 2nd epistle to the Corinthians. Perhaps you can more directly point it out to me?

I just found this online, you'll have to check it out for accuracy but it might help.
I'll keep trying to figure out which commentary I read it in. Sorry

http://www.icogsfg.org/collectn.html

 

[Slider]

Hmm..I'm getting old...excuses..not so clear but is the same offering as in scriptures below.
In 8 he reminds them about giving, tells he is sending Titus and I interpret 2 other trusted men from Macedonia to receive the collection from those in Corinth.

Romans 15:25-26

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>but now, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'>(A)</sup>I am going to Jerusalem <sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'>(B)</sup>serving the <sup class="footnote" value='[a]'>[a]</sup>saints. <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>For <sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'>(C)</sup>Macedonia and <sup class="crossreference" value='(D)'>(D)</sup>Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the <sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup>saints in Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:3

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>When I arrive, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'>(A)</sup>whomever you may approve, I will send them with letters to carry your gift to Jerusalem;


Also Paul mentions it in Acts 24:17- this same collection being taken to "his nation"

Achaia - Corinth
The famine itself is documented in historical records is my understanding but I can't remember where I read it. You might check with a few good commentaries, they may say.

I understand that all these scriptures are refering to one offering collected from several churches under Paul's requests.

There was a famine famously documented, but that was back in Acts 11. Paul with Barnabas did relieve them at Jerusalem, but that was before he wrote the letters to Corinth and Rome. Nonetheless, he did call for a collection for Jerusalem as you reported. The problem is, he didn't go to Jerusalem. Not right away.

Studying the timeline of both the actual events and when the letters were written is important. You and I both have made a few mistakes....

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians when he was in Ephesus. He wrote 2 Corinthians from Macedonia and Romans from Corinth. Paste in the verses you provided, and you start to see the picture. The problem is after he was in Corinth (which is not Achaia... but part of Achaia) he didn't go to Jerusalem. He went back to Macedonia. Then he went to Troas which is NW Turkey.... My error is I thought he went back to Ephesus. He didn't.

Now, while in Corinth, he wrote to the Romans and told them he was going to Jerusalem, but had feelings to go to Spain. He never made it.Yet he previously said to the Corinthians he wanted to preach in regions beyond. That is what the collection in 2 Cor was for. To go to spain? I don't know....

Back to the timeline.... Paul left Corinth for Macedonia (Phillipi). he thought to go to Syria, but heard Jews were waiting in trap for him. From there he went to Troas and travelled by foot and boat travelled down the Turkish coastline, but didn't go to Ephesus. He eventually did make his way to Jerusalem. He did bring "alms and offerings" but it is not connected with the famine. The chief reason he wanted to get to Jerusalem was to be there for the feast of Pentacost.

However, I do stand that when Paul asked for that collection in 2 Cor 9-10 it was for the purpose of preaching the gospel in regions beyond. By that he meant Rome and Spain (where he had never been to and never made it to).

It's pretty difficult to tie in the epistles Paul wrote with the timeline in Acts. It does appear we are both right, and that doesn't bother me. He did intend to take up a collection from the Corinthians as noted in his second epistle, and made good on that (in Troas though, not Spain). So I am right.

However, he did set up a collection for Jerusalem. Not because of famine, but for them nonetheless. You are right.

However, on his trip to Jerusalem, he made a few stops to preach the gospel in the west coast of Turkey. Eventually, he did make it to Jerusalem, got arrested and sent off to Rome.

Here is a study aid I used.... You can have a look at it and it should help you see what I'm saying.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.cfm