Paul the Tent Maker

Deborah13 · Feb 11, 2013

1 Corinthians 9:3-14

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 [a](A)Do we not have a right to eat and drink?5 [b](B)Do we not have a right to take along a [c]believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the (C)brothers of the Lord and (D)Cephas? 6 Or do only [d](E)Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? 7Who at any time serves (F)as a soldier at his own expense? Who (G)plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not [e]use the milk of the flock?
8 I am not speaking these things (H)according to [f]human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “(I)You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about (J)oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, (K)for our sake it was written, because (L)the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 11 (M)If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we (N)did not use this right, but we endure all things (O)so that we will cause no hindrance to the (P)gospel of Christ. 13 (Q)Do you not know that those who (R)perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share [g]from the altar? 14 So also (S)the Lord directed those who proclaim the (T)gospel to (U)get their living from the gospel.

Slider · Feb 12, 2013

thisnumbersdisconnected said:
Actually, I've quoted extensively from the one chapter in the New Testament in which Paul very clearly speaks against profiting from the gospel. You see fit to reject that by applying verses that, in reality, have nothing to do with Paul's teaching on the subject.

As I've said many times, I'm not going to rehash posts over and over again. I've given my observations, supported them with Scripture and stand on them as God's truth. If you do not wish to accept that, so be it. But I'm not going to go back and forth 15 times covering over the same turf. This is fellowship, not football, and my objective is not to win, but to edify. I've said all that needs to be said, and it is your prerogative to reject it. It is not my place to convict you, chastise you, or argue with you at the expense of fellowship. Done here. God bless you.

What you have done is noted 4 verses from 1 Cor 9 (verses 15-18). This is the same chapter where he (Paul) spent a lot of time explaining that he has the right to expect compensation for his preaching and even declares it ordained of God. I won't repost those verses because I've done so before and I noticed Deborah 13 did so also right after your last post.

What we have in 1 Cor 9 is Paul telling them he has the right to be compensated. He then says, "But I haven't done that." Paul didn't always ask for an offering because he wanted them to do so out of a willing heart (see 2 Cor 9:7). So, while he did not charge (demand) pay, he preached giving and took offerings for the teaching he did.

Let me break it down further for you. If you ask me to help you clean out your garage, and I say, "Sure.... Give me $20!" I have charged you. It's a fair price, and certainly I'm deservant of it. However, if I don't ask for $20, but out of fairness you offer to give me $20, and I accept it, that's me still being compensated for my efforts. That's what Paul did! We have no record that he ever refused an offering.

Now, as for me applying verses that have nothing to do with the subject, I'm sorry but I disagree. All the verses I have given are about giving for the teaching and giving to the one who preaches. I gave 13 different references that directly apply to the topic. If you don't want to address them, that's fine. If you don't want to address 1 Co 9:3-14, but would rather stay on verses 15-18, that's fine also. However, if that be the case, then you simply are not looking at the whole of the matter.

Slider · Feb 12, 2013

Mitspa said:
You cant even find the tithe at all in the New Testament, except as an examlpe of Abrahams faith in the book of Hebrews. It is a commandment of law and it brings the curse of the law with it. Because one must keep all the law to be blessed by the law. Just as Paul said those who attempt to keep part of the law are cursed by the law.

Now I believe the tithe of faith is blessed if one give in faith, for God loves such a gift.

But again we have covetness and greed working in the church. We need bigger buildings and new carpet etc...
Alot of this is more about ego of a "pastor" or group than about the Kingdom of God.
So they teach law and curse the people, to please and promote themselves.

If a man of God needs to put others in bondage to promote his ministry or the doctrines of the group, there doctrines are wrong and the "man of God" is in error.

Actually, Jesus said in Mat 23:23 that the pharasees paid tithes on their goods. Jesus said they ought to do that but not forget the more weightier matters.

I put one of your quotes in bold.... I agree with that wholeheartedly! As for corruption and greed... I acknowledge that it is there, but that's not the type of minister I had in mind when I started this thread. I am speaking about the preacher who has an honest heart.

thisnumbersdisconnected · Feb 12, 2013

Slider said:
What you have done is noted 4 verses from 1 Cor 9 (verses 15-18). This is the same chapter where he (Paul) spent a lot of time explaining that he has the right to expect compensation for his preaching and even declares it ordained of God. I won't repost those verses because I've done so before and I noticed Deborah 13 did so also right after your last post.

Look, I've said we're done here, and this is why. You aren't paying attention. You're arguing over the same passages with the same viewpoint on those passages without considering the alternative view, which essentially proves that Paul did not consider his apostleship his source of income.. 1 Cor 9:18 negates your entire argument. The previous passages establish the privilege of the pastor to be remunerated for his services to the church. Paul was not a pastor. Paul sets his ministry apart from that of pastor. He did not consider his vocation to be "apostle" but "tent-maker." Please try to grasp that. Now, we really are done here. Period. Thank you for your participation. Have a nice life. God bless.

Slider · Feb 12, 2013

thisnumbersdisconnected said:
Look, I've said we're done here, and this is why. You aren't paying attention. You're arguing over the same passages with the same viewpoint on those passages without considering the alternative view, which essentially proves that Paul did not consider his apostleship his source of income.. 1 Cor 9:18 negates your entire argument. The previous passages establish the privilege of the pastor to be remunerated for his services to the church. Paul was not a pastor. Paul sets his ministry apart from that of pastor. He did not consider his vocation to be "apostle" but "tent-maker." Please try to grasp that. Now, we really are done here. Period. Thank you for your participation. Have a nice life. God bless.

Paul started several Churches and thus, was their first Pastor. He then moved on and appointed others to the position. Furthermore, in Gal 6:6 he says, "let him that is taught in the word communicate good things to him that teacheth." All 5 parts of the ministry do that. 1 Cor 9:18 DOES NOT negate my entire arguement when I have 13 other references that state otherwise, including 1 Cor 9:3-14. I have verses that said it was his source of income to support his ministry, which was his life. With that money he travelled, he lodged and he ate.

Now about that tent making. Give me ONE verse where Paul ever said: 1. He was a tent maker, 2. he used tent making to support himself, 3. He did not use offerings to support himself on his mission. Luke one time noted he was a tent maker, and in Acts 20, Paul notes that he worked with his hands. Yes, acnknowledged... In 1 Cor 9 he didn't charge anyone, but did say he could've and even in that chapter he never said he wasn't using offerings to support himself on his mission.

I'm arguing the same passages???? I've got 13 sets to stand on and you have only focused on 3!!!! Who's arguing over the same passages?

Deborah13 · Feb 12, 2013

Slider said:
Actually, Jesus said in Mat 23:23 that the pharasees paid tithes on their goods. Jesus said they ought to do that but not forget the more weightier matters.

I put one of your quotes in bold.... I agree with that wholeheartedly! As for corruption and greed... I acknowledge that it is there, but that's not the type of minister I had in mind when I started this thread. I am speaking about the preacher who has an honest heart.

I must add that pastors need to be careful what scriptures they use to teach giving. The one above is not applicable to our churchs. This scripture is not about tithing, it's about the things they did not do. The Pharisees were correct to tithe, they were under the Law, Jesus was always using the Law to instruct about mercy and grace, teaching Life not Law. It's been established in my point of view, through scripture, that pastors should receive wages for their labor just like anyone else, Corinthians is clear. But when pastors, evanglists, etc teach tithing from the Law they are teaching the Law. They may as well stand up there and read the big 10. Oh they use the blessing scriptures in the Law for tithers but most of them don't teach the curses if you don't tithe. They will say it's because Jesus took the curses at the cross so they don't apply. Really, if one obeys tithing under the Law then they will be judged by the Law in all things. Just like anything else one might do under works to get something from God, like salvation. Paul taught a better way to give. He taught giving under grace, God wants us to just give with a joyful heart and He will bless you just like anything else we do for the Lord. I believe these pastors, evanglist are stealing many blessing from many people (not all). Many give and I know some personally, they do it because they want to obey God but not with a heart transformation, it's behaviour modification and expect God to bless what they have given 30, 60, 100 fold. I'm not saying God won't do it but I'd say most don't see it because giving is a matter of the heart, just like everything else under grace.
There are grace pastor who do teach giving and do mention the tithe (10th) as a spiritual guideline for giving (as the Jews do today) but I've heard two say, if it is not firming established in your heart what to give, how much to give, and where to give it, don't give. They have learned that people actually give more when they are free from the Law and give under grace. I believe the Holy Spirit is then able to touch their hearts with the right attitude of giving just like any other grace teaching and they get blessed because their hearts are right with God.
Yes a preacher should have an honest heart but it's more about the giver's honest heart.

thisnumbersdisconnected · Feb 12, 2013

Slider said:
I'm arguing the same passages???? I've got 13 sets to stand on and you have only focused on 3!!!! Who's arguing over the same passages?

OK, one last time. You argue all around the issue but haven't addressed the crux yet.

1 Corinthians 9 NASB
13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

Here, Paul has stated that he indeed has the right to receive offerings from the faithful to provide for him in his ministry. But he immediately goes on to say ...

15 But I have used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make my boast an empty one.

Do you understand what he just said? He has received no compensation or offering for his benefit in preaching the gospel! Can it be any more clear than that? Good grief, man, read the text! He expands on why he won't receive an offering or pay for his work:

16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

He receives no reward other than that which he receives from God -- the satisfaction of having been obedient and effective in his ministry. Others have the right to receive pay, he says. Those who serve the believers after Paul is gone. But Paul's ministry is to preach the gospel so "I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; WOE IS ME IF I DO NOT PREACH THE GOSPEL." It is as much from his own desire that the world hear the gospel as it is God's and there is no compensation that can equal that which God provides in approval and comfort and help.

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

By rejecting compensation, he is under no obligation to anyone. No one can dictate what he preaches, how he preaches, where he preaches, when he preaches, who he preaches to, or why he preaches. This is another good reason for the missionary -- those who have replaced the office of apostle -- to consider being as Paul and having another vocation which goes hand in hand with the opportunity to bring the Good News to those who have not heard it.

20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

Paul needs the gospel as much as he knows others need it. He could not begin to think of receiving payment for his ministry.

Now, refute, if you can, his refusal to take offering or compensation. Clearly, not once, but twice, he states that he refuses to be paid. Deal with vv. 15, 18 and prove to me Paul considered himself a paid minister of the gospel. But to do so you will have to call Paul a liar and deny the truth of those verses. Good day, and good life. God bless you.

Deborah13 · Feb 12, 2013

Slider said:
Paul started several Churches and thus, was their first Pastor. He then moved on and appointed others to the position. Furthermore, in Gal 6:6 he says, "let him that is taught in the word communicate good things to him that teacheth." All 5 parts of the ministry do that. 1 Cor 9:18 DOES NOT negate my entire arguement when I have 13 other references that state otherwise, including 1 Cor 9:3-14. I have verses that said it was his source of income to support his ministry, which was his life. With that money he travelled, he lodged and he ate.

Now about that tent making. Give me ONE verse where Paul ever said: 1. He was a tent maker, 2. he used tent making to support himself, 3. He did not use offerings to support himself on his mission. Luke one time noted he was a tent maker, and in Acts 20, Paul notes that he worked with his hands. Yes, acnknowledged... In 1 Cor 9 he didn't charge anyone, but did say he could've and even in that chapter he never said he wasn't using offerings to support himself on his mission.

I'm arguing the same passages???? I've got 13 sets to stand on and you have only focused on 3!!!! Who's arguing over the same passages?

Just to clarify....I agree with TND that Paul was NOT a pastor, and I do not hear him saying that pastors (or anyone for that matter) should not be paid for their labor in the gospel just that he is saying that Paul was not a pastor therefore to use the giving to Paul as an arguement that pastors should be paid is not a valid one.

farouk · Feb 12, 2013

Paul was itinerant, essentially, in his ministry. Though he did have the heart of a pastor, as well, I think it's fair to say.

Deborah13 · Feb 12, 2013

farouk said:
Paul was itinerant, essentially, in his ministry. Though he did have the heart of a pastor, as well, I think it's fair to say.

I think he did in some ways maybe, it appears he stayed in touch with the churchs were he had been, concerned that they were continuing in the faith. He doesn't appear to have been too involved with the day to day sheparding of the flock, as in baptizing, etc. But he surely gave instruction as to proper procedures, such as in Corinth.

farouk · Feb 12, 2013

Deborah13 said:
I think he did in some ways maybe, it appears he stayed in touch with the churchs were he had been, concerned that they were continuing in the faith. He doesn't appear to have been too involved with the day to day sheparding of the flock, as in baptizing, etc. But he surely gave instruction as to proper procedures, such as in Corinth.

Deborah: I'm sure this is very true, yes.

The Scriptural record would seem to confirm it.

Blessings.

Slider · Feb 12, 2013

thisnumbersdisconnected said:
Now, refute, if you can, his refusal to take offering or compensation. Clearly, not once, but twice, he states that he refuses to be paid. Deal with vv. 15, 18 and prove to me Paul considered himself a paid minister of the gospel. But to do so you will have to call Paul a liar and deny the truth of those verses. Good day, and good life. God bless you.

See, number... You are again relying on one verse and refusing to look at all the other verses I gave. I have discussed this verse enough.... Several times, as it is the only one you want to discuss. I have said yes, he did not charge them in this verse. It does not mean he didn't take an offering. In fact, later he did ask for one in 2 Corinthians. I talked about that, did you look into it?

Now... Let's look at another verse:

1 Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: for laboring night and day, because we would not be chargable unto any of you, we preached the gospel of God.

Let me break this down for you.... Paul (and his helpers) labored and travailled. "Labor" is work, travail refers to doing so painstakingly. So while in Thessalonia, he worked. He did it night and day. That taken literally says he worked 24 straight hours. Of course, I don't believe he did... I think this means he just worked long hours. Why did he work? So he would not be chargable to any of them. In other words, he was working so he wouldn't be taking anything from them for free. Now.... what was his work? How did he labor? He PREACHED THE GOSPEL!!!! He did not make tents!!!! Since he labored night and day, it doesn't sound like he had much time for tent making, does it?

So you can say, "Well, Paul never considered his ministry a source of income" but this verse says otherwise. His labor was preaching the gospel and he did it so he wouldn't be a free loader!

So will you continue to only read 1 Cor 9:15 on this matter, or will you be willing to look at all the other verses I brought up which clearly say that Paul's profession was an Apostle, and he did in fact receive compensation for it?

Slider · Feb 12, 2013

Deborah13 said:
I must add that pastors need to be careful what scriptures they use to teach giving. The one above is not applicable to our churchs. This scripture is not about tithing, it's about the things they did not do. The Pharisees were correct to tithe, they were under the Law,

Deborah, I agree. I was just bringing it up because it was talked about in the NT. It wasn't meant to be taken as that big a point. Paul said [paraphrasing] give according to what's in your heart.

Slider · Feb 12, 2013

Deborah13 said:
Just to clarify....I agree with TND that Paul was NOT a pastor, and I do not hear him saying that pastors (or anyone for that matter) should not be paid for their labor in the gospel just that he is saying that Paul was not a pastor therefore to use the giving to Paul as an arguement that pastors should be paid is not a valid one.

Do you agree with me on Gal 6:6? Let him that is taught in the word communicate good things to them that teacheth? Do you think that means just saying nice things about the teacher or do you think that means financial compensation? If so, it applies to all 5 parts of the ministry. If you preach the gospel, you deserve to be compensated. That's the bottom line.

Deborah13 · Feb 12, 2013

Slider said:
Do you agree with me on Gal 6:6? Let him that is taught in the word communicate good things to them that teacheth? Do you think that means just saying nice things about the teacher or do you think that means financial compensation? If so, it applies to all 5 parts of the ministry. If you preach the gospel, you deserve to be compensated. That's the bottom line.

6 (K)The one who is taught (L)the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 (M)Do not be deceived, (N)God is not mocked; for (O)whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 (P)For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap (Q)corruption, but (R)the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 (S)Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we (T)do not grow weary. 10 So then, [b](U)while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the (V)household of (W)the faith.

I don't think this is a particularly strong scripture to use when talking about financial support although it certainly could be included in the good things. The scripture goes on to include doing good to all people especially those in the household (family) of God. There are many things that one could do that are good things for the teacher and frankly one of the most important is to pray for them. They are in a position of responsibility and authority and will be held responsible for their actions by God. I believe that satan will especially attack them by various means and they need our prayers. But one could donate their time to the pastor to type up notes, wash his car, run errands, service as an elder, etc..I think there is a danger of every scripture that could possibly apply being applied to money only. What you sow is what you will reap goes way beyond money.

Mitspa · Feb 12, 2013

Deborah13 said:
6 (K)The one who is taught (L)the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 (M)Do not be deceived, (N)God is not mocked; for (O)whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 (P)For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap (Q)corruption, but (R)the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 (S)Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we (T)do not grow weary. 10 So then, [b](U)while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the (V)household of (W)the faith.

I don't think this is a particularly strong scripture to use when talking about financial support although it certainly could be included in the good things. The scripture goes on to include doing good to all people especially those in the household (family) of God. There are many things that one could do that are good things for the teacher and frankly one of the most important is to pray for them. They are in a position of responsibility and authority and will be held responsible for their actions by God. I believe that satan will especially attack them by various means and they need our prayers. But one could donate their time to the pastor to type up notes, wash his car, run errands, service as an elder, etc..I think there is a danger of every scripture that could possibly apply being applied to money only. What you sow is what you will reap goes way beyond money.

Like all truth of scripture, it can be twisted and the intention of that truth can be lost , as it often is. I come from a "word of faith" background, I know that these things can be very misused and must all be subject to the will of the Holy Spirit.
All scipture on giving should be balanced and judged by other scripture and the Spirit of Truth, that we all should have. I know that many have gone astray and the devil has made many ministers table become as a snare, over this issue. When the Lord gave me the Holy Spirit and gifts He told me "never sell this" What I have been given freely I will freely give. I think Paul would turn many over for what many do that brings shame upon the gospel?

Deborah13 · Feb 12, 2013

Although I do like some of the preachers who teach some of the WoF doctrine (such as it is God's will to heal) and even say they are WoF I do not see them corrupting giving, grace, and several others things that WoF do on the whole. I think some of them started out their ministries just fine (I'm remembering one from 30 yrs. ago) but as time went by there was less and less preaching on anything but money. As I have looked back I don't remember them ever preaching grace, they are works and thus preach giving from the Law. Their teachings are geared towards give so you will get without teaching attitude of the heart. Yes, I think Paul would have much to say about it. When we give we are giving to God for the spreading of the Gospel -- Good News, and to help the poor and needy.

Slider · Feb 13, 2013

Deborah13 said:
I don't think this is a particularly strong scripture to use when talking about financial support although it certainly could be included in the good things. The scripture goes on to include doing good to all people especially those in the household (family) of God. There are many things that one could do that are good things for the teacher and frankly one of the most important is to pray for them. They are in a position of responsibility and authority and will be held responsible for their actions by God. I believe that satan will especially attack them by various means and they need our prayers. But one could donate their time to the pastor to type up notes, wash his car, run errands, service as an elder, etc..I think there is a danger of every scripture that could possibly apply being applied to money only. What you sow is what you will reap goes way beyond money.

It is a very strong scripture when talking about financial support. Yes it talks about doing good to all people, especially those of the household, but verse 6 is specifically talking about them that teaches. They are included in the household, but not all teach. Verse 6 is talking specifically abou them that teach. Donating time to a pastor (or one that teaches, whomever it may be) is a good thing and included in the communication of good things. So is money.

Paul also uses a familiar phrase right after that... Let me show you:

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Compare that to this verse:

2 Cor 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

That I know of, these are the only two times Paul used this analogy. In Galatians he's talking about communicating (sharing) good things, and in 2 Corinthians he was talking about collecting a bounty and giving. You might say it was a collection for the saints, and that is true. But if you read on in chapter 10 it was not to give needy saints money, it was to cover travel expenses to get their and preach.

So yes, one could type up notes, wash his car, run errands, serve as an elder, etc... Those are all good things. But one could also give money like Paul requested in 2 Cor 9! There is no need to be so uptight about money. Money answereth all things (ecc 10:19). Money is not evil, its the love of it that is evil. A good man of God (in whatever capacity) will not be corrupted by you giving him money.

<dir></dir>

thisnumbersdisconnected · Feb 13, 2013

Slider said:
See, number... You are again relying on one verse and refusing to look at all the other verses I gave. I have discussed this verse enough.... Several times, as it is the only one you want to discuss. I have said yes, he did not charge them in this verse. It does not mean he didn't take an offering. In fact, later he did ask for one in 2 Corinthians. I talked about that, did you look into it?

Now... Let's look at another verse:

No, let's not. I said, "Refute, if you can, his refusal to take offering or compensation," as stated in verses 15 and 18. For me, or anyone else here, to accept what you say, you must negate these verses, proving they do not say what they clearly say. Deal with those first. Eliminate them from the argument, if you can. If you cannot do this, you have failed to prove your point, and you are grasping at straws to salvage your argument.

Slider · Feb 13, 2013

thisnumbersdisconnected said:
No, let's not.

Fine. Turn a blind eye to the scripture. It in no way will effect me.

Love God, and love one another!

Wake up and smell the coffee!

Want to discuss private matters, or make a few friends?

Need prayer and encouragement?

Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

Have questions about the Christian faith?

CFN has a new look and a new theme

Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Focus on the Family

Paul the Tent Maker

Deborah13

Slider

Slider

thisnumbersdisconnected

Slider

Deborah13

thisnumbersdisconnected

Deborah13

farouk

Deborah13

farouk

Slider

Slider

Slider

Deborah13

Mitspa

Guest

Deborah13

Slider

thisnumbersdisconnected

Slider