Paul was not saved by faith

[FreeGrace]

I like true. How bout you?...;)

I like truth. What the Bible says. And means.

 

[smaller]

I like truth. What the Bible says. And means.

IF I could see in full and not in part, I'd say it.

 

[FreeGrace]

IF I could see in full and not in part, I'd say it.

God gave us all we need to know to understand what He wants us to know, now.

I believe what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 14:33; God is not a God of confusion.

But there are many believers who are very confused today. Scripture means only one thing, yet, there are many different "understandings" of Scripture. All are false except what the Holy Spirit meant.

Our challenge is to rightly divide the Word of Truth, so that we will not be ashamed. Many believers will be ashamed one day, when they finally come face to face with the Truth.

 

[Mike S]

I like true. How bout you?...;)

And, I'm sure you think you know what's true?

 

[smaller]

God gave us all we need to know to understand what He wants us to know, now.

I accept the conclusion of seeing in part. That is not 'all' there is or desired. Obviously seeing in full remains on the sight horizons as a portion of promise to come.

I believe what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 14:33; God is not a God of confusion.

Yet God also confuses. Many of such concepts when looked at from only one perspective will derive only a one sided perspective. That's my least favorite form of approach. We also know that God tempts no man, yet tempted Abraham. We know God doesn't Author confusion, yet confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel.

Few of these matters are one sided. It's far more interesting to observe both sides, even in part, than to take one side as if it were stand alone matter when there are obvious other sides presented that are directly opposite. That's part of the fun of theology. I wouldn't enjoy it much if I had to ignore what might appear on the surface to be opposing statements. They really aren't. God does do BOTH in every case. Uplifts and puts down. To look only at uplift and ignore put down would be one sided.

But there are many believers who are very confused today. Scripture means only one thing, yet, there are many different "understandings" of Scripture. All are false except what the Holy Spirit meant.

Scripture to me does mean only One thing, and that 'not' a 'thing' but Him. It will never be in my right of view to 'tell God' what He Is and Means or to force that partial sight as the only sight when it's not. Believers have every right to be confused. How many of us see far differently today than the day we first picked up the scriptures. None of us knew 'immediately' of much of anything. There is always variances in every person, as noted prior. We have what Paul wrote for example, and we have every single reader coming to thousands if not millions of different conclusions based on where they are at at any given point in time. That GROWTH is really out of the hands of the impositions of any man. One doesn't grow an adult from a child by simply stating 'be an adult and think only like me' to them. They have to 'experience' God in Christ to GROW into Him. Declarations have their place. Sowing, watering, etc. But we KNOW who provides the GROWTH. It's none of us. (Paul, 1 Cor.)

Our challenge is to rightly divide the Word of Truth, so that we will not be ashamed. Many believers will be ashamed one day, when they finally come face to face with the Truth.

We will ALL have our share of shame because of our factual imperfections. There is little use in trying to rub away the obvious. I'm just not perfect. I have no excuses for myself on why I'm not because I KNOW that Perfection can only come from ONE Direction and it ain't from me.

To me this is just common sense. Anyone could come to the same conclusion regardless of what they believe, that we don't know or see everything and that we aren't perfect. It's when we believe we are perfect and do see everything that we are nearer the edge of the non-credibile black hole of theology. IF I didn't believe I'd see better and more tomorrow, I maybe wouldn't bother getting out of bed...

I try not to hold the sight of a child against them. It's pointless. Been there myself. May wind up there again in a few more decades. 2

 

[smaller]

And, I'm sure you think you know what's true?

I have to admit I only know Truth in part. I think Paul shows that himself. I accept that fact.

 

[Mike S]

I have to admit I only know Truth in part. I think Paul shows that himself. I accept that fact.

As do I, and I probably do no better than the others here.

 

[smaller]

As do I, and I probably do no better than the others here.

Tends to level the playing field don't it? 2

I've tried to relate to Paul's footsteps. Christ said to follow Him. Paul said to follow him as he followed Christ. When I follow Paul in his pre-salvation state, I relate to where he WAS at. And I relate even more afterwards. That's part of the fun of viewing these men of faith, to track them, to follow the hows and whys of their leadings. I've done the same and continue to do the same with all the people in the scriptures. It's all there for reasons and there are endless matters to observe therein that both helpful and hurtful in the temporal senses.

There are interesting matters to see with Paul that I may see that others don't & vice versa. That's usually the joy of sharing various reflections. I like Paul's reflections because I consider them spot on deadly accurate and I take each and every word personally. Quite personally painful in some of those steps. God assuredly called him out and showed him what I consider to be incredible Revelation not seen in any man prior other than in God Himself in flesh. It's thoroughly fascinating.

But just as thoroughly hard to follow along. Did Paul have faith? Oh yeah. I thank God for His Work, Christ IN Paul, in the delivery of some very honest and basic theological constructs & conclusions that were always in the scriptures, but brought forth brilliantly through Paul in the spiritual arena. Incredible sights to be harvested, used, deployed and built upon.

Every such hut has wood, hay and stubble. Partial sight. I have every confidence that the final fire will take care of what needs purging and that the end result will be...

PERFECT beyond what we presently see. We just wait that final application of fire to finish it off. To put that final eternal shine on the clay. To put the Light in the Stars and to adorn them for Gods Sole Satisfactions. Only He can really 'do that.' Or at least I believe this.

 

[FreeGrace]

I accept the conclusion of seeing in part. That is not 'all' there is or desired. Obviously seeing in full remains on the sight horizons as a portion of promise to come.

My point was clear. From His written Word, we have all we need for now.

Yet God also confuses. Many of such concepts when looked at from only one perspective will derive only a one sided perspective. That's my least favorite form of approach. We also know that God tempts no man, yet tempted Abraham.

So then, you believe the Bible is contradictory??

We know God doesn't Author confusion, yet confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel.

Actually and technically, God created all the languages. It was the people who got confused by languages they didn't understand. And we know the purpose for the languages; to separate people. So your analysis isn't quite accurate. God did NOT confuse any languages. He created languages. That is not confusion.

What people do with what God created is another issue.

I said this:
"Scripture means only one thing, yet, there are many different "understandings" of Scripture. All are false except what the Holy Spirit meant."

Few of these matters are one sided. It's far more interesting to observe both sides, even in part, than to take one side as if it were stand alone matter when there are obvious other sides presented that are directly opposite.

I believe that Truth is "stand alone". There is only 1 Truth. What God says. Anything and everything that is contrary to what God says is false.

I think what you are trying to get at is perspective. Yes, sure, there are 2 perspectives; God's and man's. The best that man can do is to understand God's perspective and embrace it.

That's part of the fun of theology. I wouldn't enjoy it much if I had to ignore what might appear on the surface to be opposing statements. They really aren't. God does do BOTH in every case.

The fun is to rightly divide the Word of Truth in order to prove that there are NO opposing statements in Scripture. I reject any suggestion that Scripture is contradictory.

Uplifts and puts down. To look only at uplift and ignore put down would be one sided.

There is a difference between what God says and what He does. But to suggest that "in every case" He is doing contradictory things doesn't make sense. Maybe an example to support your suggestion?

Scripture to me does mean only One thing, and that 'not' a 'thing' but Him. It will never be in my right of view to 'tell God' what He Is and Means or to force that partial sight as the only sight when it's not.

OK. I don't think anyone on this forum has tried to "tell God" anything. The issue is to understand what He has said and what that means.

Believers have every right to be confused. How many of us see far differently today than the day we first picked up the scriptures. None of us knew 'immediately' of much of anything.

No one has any "right" to confusion. But many are. Why? Poor teaching from the pulpit, book, TV, act. Let's not forget the devil, who has been deceiving the "whole world" since the beginning of human history. 1 Jn 5:19

 

[gr8grace3]

I have to admit I only know Truth in part. I think Paul shows that himself. I accept that fact.

So as Christians:

1. We can't really know if Christ was really God?

2. We can't really know how to be saved?

3. We can't really know if the bible is Gods word?

4. We can't really know if Paul was teaching the truth?

5 We can't really know if God created this place?

6. We can't really know that Christ died for our sins?

7. We can't really know that Christ was raised from the dead?

8. We can't really know Christ loves us?

Take how to be saved for example, how to be saved is a "part" of the truth that we KNOW. We do not know it in part, we do not see it through a glass dimly. Going to heaven,living with out a sin nature,having a resurrected body,eternal rewards and things of that nature pertaining to salvation, we know in part.

We can and do know parts of the truth clearly. We will just never know all the parts while on this earth.

Your word phrasing makes it look as if we can't see any truth clearly.

 

[smaller]

My point was clear. From His written Word, we have all we need for now.

I'd agree that we have plenty of Word to keep us tied up for a lifetime...

So then, you believe the Bible is contradictory??

Not at all. But there are ample proofs that two positions are deployed that seem to be contradictory on the surface, as prior noted. They aren't. God does both. He confuses and He doesn't. He lifts up and puts down. He kills and makes alive. He tempts and he doesn't tempt.

To abide on one or the other as the sole deployment at the expense of the opposite doesn't work or compute, nor does it have to.

Actually and technically, God created all the languages. It was the people who got confused by languages they didn't understand. And we know the purpose for the languages; to separate people. So your analysis isn't quite accurate. God did NOT confuse any languages. He created languages. That is not confusion.

Genesis 11:
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.
6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
9 That is why it was called Babel because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. -

And courtesy of that reality, you and I will read two different accounts. And neither of us will or even can accept the others sight. I won't insist that you see God both confusing and not confusing. I'm reading what I see and saying I see both, and that I don't need to eliminate one working in favor over another by whatever methods are employed to do so. I read both. You don't. That's your right. But that right doesn't require me to eliminate the text and what I see written. Dig?

Therein we have a basic difference in sight. You are welcome to your conclusion, but I have to follow you off the pages to get to your conclusion. I'd rather see it for what it says, by preference of what's written over some other guys subjective analysis that over rides the obvious. And then try to understand why there are TWO workings that on the surface would seem to contradict. They don't. God does both workings. That's the only conclusion I can come to. Two 'lesser truths' can simultaneously exist and NOT be in conflict. There are vast numbers of such surface conflicts and they are set forth for view.

And there are reasons why these types of scriptural setups are deployed. God does have diversity of engagement. Where for example he will LIFT UP Israel and PUT DOWN other nations. Does God then only lift up? Or does He simultaneously put down? There is no use just resting on one side of the matter at the expense of another, seemingly surface conflict when it can be settled by viewing diversity of operations.

 

[smaller]

So as Christians:

1. We can't really know if Christ was really God?

Of course. But that knowledge or understanding has it's limitations. It's one thing to know. It's a different world when we seek to define or capture such notions and make or force people to bow down to 'whatever' constructs are being deployed.

2. We can't really know how to be saved?

Of course. But in matter of faith there is diversity in this matter. Faith is shown to be lesser or greater. It's not an arena of captivity. It's an arena of diversity. If someone believes that they may be rather than are for a surety, their faith differs to the extent of what they see. There is nothing you or I can do to change that. Both will just have to call it as their faith sees it.

3. We can't really know if the bible is Gods word?

We who believe accept that that is a fact. But we also know Gods Word is Alive and Active from that same text. This matter is often the subject of diversity. Some say Word only, some say Word and experience. Some say only experience. I think all of these sights are legit and all contained by partial sights of the holders.

4. We can't really know if Paul was teaching the truth?

Paul encouraged testing and did not say that his findings were not subject to scrutiny and examinations. We don't find the Bereans to be counseled otherwise do we? The engagement is always upon the individual to verify and to test.

5 We can't really know if God created this place?

Again, yes. But certainly not according to the subjective dictates of 'strict literal 6 day creationists. Never. No one has to bow to idiocy. If we know a day can be a thousand years then time itself is a questionable arena in the spiritual sense. To say we must view time only as the six 24 hour day literalist demands? Fat chance. It is those kinds of insistence that ruin credible Christian witnesses in the face of legitimate alternatives.

Your question lines demand answers. The reality is however that most contain various 'insert clauses' that believers have every right to examine in great detail. And in such examinations done by partial sight they not only will, but factually HAVE come to different conclusions. We should never place blind faith in the constructs of any man simply by such making declarations. To me that is not faith, faithful or studious.

Were it so we'd all still be camping in the understandings of the early orthodox in their entirety.

Most of us have moved on to supposedly better things.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

I accept the conclusion of seeing in part. That is not 'all' there is or desired. Obviously seeing in full remains on the sight horizons as a portion of promise to come.


Yet God also confuses. Many of such concepts when looked at from only one perspective will derive only a one sided perspective. That's my least favorite form of approach. We also know that God tempts no man, yet tempted Abraham. We know God doesn't Author confusion, yet confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel.

Few of these matters are one sided. It's far more interesting to observe both sides, even in part, than to take one side as if it were stand alone matter when there are obvious other sides presented that are directly opposite. That's part of the fun of theology. I wouldn't enjoy it much if I had to ignore what might appear on the surface to be opposing statements. They really aren't. God does do BOTH in every case. Uplifts and puts down. To look only at uplift and ignore put down would be one sided.


Scripture to me does mean only One thing, and that 'not' a 'thing' but Him. It will never be in my right of view to 'tell God' what He Is and Means or to force that partial sight as the only sight when it's not. Believers have every right to be confused. How many of us see far differently today than the day we first picked up the scriptures. None of us knew 'immediately' of much of anything. There is always variances in every person, as noted prior. We have what Paul wrote for example, and we have every single reader coming to thousands if not millions of different conclusions based on where they are at at any given point in time. That GROWTH is really out of the hands of the impositions of any man. One doesn't grow an adult from a child by simply stating 'be an adult and think only like me' to them. They have to 'experience' God in Christ to GROW into Him. Declarations have their place. Sowing, watering, etc. But we KNOW who provides the GROWTH. It's none of us. (Paul, 1 Cor.)


We will ALL have our share of shame because of our factual imperfections. There is little use in trying to rub away the obvious. I'm just not perfect. I have no excuses for myself on why I'm not because I KNOW that Perfection can only come from ONE Direction and it ain't from me.

To me this is just common sense. Anyone could come to the same conclusion regardless of what they believe, that we don't know or see everything and that we aren't perfect. It's when we believe we are perfect and do see everything that we are nearer the edge of the non-credibile black hole of theology. IF I didn't believe I'd see better and more tomorrow, I maybe wouldn't bother getting out of bed...

I try not to hold the sight of a child against them. It's pointless. Been there myself. May wind up there again in a few more decades. 2

Interesting post. I originally thought the old testament was very confusing. But its not once you get to know it and God more. Its like mental challenges and puzzles which make you smarter. It is to the brain what weight lifting is to the body. Hence it is edifying. It yields good fruit. But when someone tries to intentionally confuse for wickedness (joke) or for vain reasons, that is not edifying. I understand that now.

This poster is right on. There is potential in God of both good and evil. But it involves sorta a mirror reflection of God doing evil to us because we do evil. There is only potential in Jesus to do positive. Cause he is the ultimate positive and light. Saved Christians are hidden in Jesus from the wrath of Jehovah.

Unsaved lost people are experiencing the calamities from God and they do not realize it. They believe it to be "random" but it is not. God is in control.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'd agree that we have plenty of Word to keep us tied up for a lifetime…

Maybe confused…???

Not at all. But there are ample proofs that two positions are deployed that seem to be contradictory on the surface, as prior noted. They aren't. God does both. He confuses and He doesn't. He lifts up and puts down. He kills and makes alive. He tempts and he doesn't tempt.

Seems you're confused about God.

 

[jasonc]

Has nothing to do with you being saved. But according to scripture a man must be married to one women with children who respect him and take care of his house lest he can't preach.

well the just negated the entire Pauline letters and statements in acts. he wasn't married and had no kids.