Paul's "thorn in the flesh"

[ezra]

but to act as if it has not been laid out in an open way? I find to be very ungodly and dishonest.

you posted healed by the seat from his brow. i challenged that and still do . it has nothing to do with dishonest or ungodly as you claim. so i ask you not use them terms . :gah

 

[Mitspa]

you posted healed by the seat from his brow. i challenged that and still do . it has nothing to do with dishonest or ungodly as you claim. so i ask you not use them terms . :gah

The scripture was posted, Strongs defined the word and a biblical point was made and explained. Then your last post attempted to claim that no scipture had been presented, when it in deed had. Now like I said you can accept my point or reject it? It does not matter to me. But to say the scriptue was not presented? Is not true and is dishonest.

 

[ezra]

handkerchief = soudarian Strongs #4676 - 1 ) a handkerchief 2) a cloth for wiping perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose

apron = simikinthion #4612 - 1) a narrow apron, or linen covering, which workmen and servants were accustomed to wear

From the scripture we see that they were not clean but taken from his body. What do you think was on them from Paul?

What does sweat represent in the word but work. Jesus sweat blood. His blood, our atonement. Paul worked to deliver the gospel.

this has nothing to do with healing from the sweat of his brow. paul is not jesus we are saved the christ blood. paul sacrifice at his death was not atonement... you still have not presented scripture sweat of his brow. so at this point i reject your claim.

 

[Mitspa]

Acts 19:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

I hope we can return to the topic?

 

[ezra]

And" God wrought special miracles " by the hands of Paul:

paul was only a servant God used a chosen vessel for a chosen time.

 

[Mitspa]

this has nothing to do with healing from the sweat of his brow. paul is not jesus we are saved the christ blood. paul sacrifice at his death was not atonement... you still have not presented scripture sweat of his brow. so at this point i reject your claim.

You have free-will!
I have the truth and have revealed this truth to those God wanted to see it. I think somebody called it a " great revelation" maybe they can see what you cannot see? no big deal, lets move on.

 

[ezra]

You have free-will!
I have the truth and have revealed this truth to those God wanted to see it. I think somebody called it a " great revelation" maybe they can see what you cannot see? no big deal, lets move on.

sure no scriptures its all good i understand

 

[Mitspa]

paul was only a servant God used a chosen vessel for a chosen time.

Paul was what God made him! No one has claimed Paul to be more than what the scriptures declare him to be.

Sorry I did not have them written, God did.

 

[Butch5]

theBible is very consistent. i've found that many words keep the same meaningthroughout the Bible.
for instance, in Numbers chapter 6, wine and grape juice are both mentioned.wine is wine and grape juice is grape juice. they are not interchangeable.
but what about phrases?
in 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul mentions "there was given me a thorn in myflesh".
Numbers 33:55 mentions a thorn in your sides.
Judges 2:3 mentions a thorn in your sides.
they all seem to have the same meaning.
if so, how would you best describe Pauls' thorn in the flesh.
if not, then what does it all mean?

I believe Pau's thorn inthe flesh was his eyesight. It seems when he regained his sight it was notas it had been before. In the passage you quoted Paul also speaks of gloryingin his infirmity, so I think it is likely that it is this infirmity thatis his thorn in the side. We know that Paul had others write his letters,again, most like due to his eyesight. We can see from his letter tothe Galatians which he personally wrote that his eyesight was an issue.

NET Galatians 6:11 See what big letters I make asI write to you with my own hand!

 

[eddif]

the Bible is very consistent. i've found that many words keep the same meaning throughout the Bible.
for instance, in Numbers chapter 6, wine and grape juice are both mentioned. wine is wine and grape juice is grape juice. they are not interchangeable.
but what about phrases?
in 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul mentions "there was given me a thorn in my flesh".
Numbers 33:55 mentions a thorn in your sides.
Judges 2:3 mentions a thorn in your sides.
they all seem to have the same meaning.
if so, how would you best describe Pauls' thorn in the flesh.
if not, then what does it all mean?

The words may stay constant, but what about the person reading them.
II Corinthians 3:12-17
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, Which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded; for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

I think the passage is interesting in several aspects.
The Mind is mentioned.
The Heart is mentioned
A Veil is mentioned
Blindness is mentioned

A person having had eye issues might see the spiritual as he meditated on what happened to him physically. I have some food allergies, and I just avoid the food. I learned there are some subjects of conversation I should avoid to keep from having a mental allergy to the topic LOL.

The words do not change but those readihg the words sure have differing comprehesion of those writings.

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Jude 1:20 But ye beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

We get more likely to understand each other as we build ourselves up. I tend to think that there is a great leap in understanding at salvation, and some differences that change on levels over time.

Paul mentions his mind serving the law of Christ and his body the law of sin. The Corinthians 3 passage had a veil to hide an inward work happening to Moses. There are inward works in us and there are outward things. Or either I should blank out some written words and insert some more.

I do not suggest each person having their own private way of understanding. I do see in scripture some differences discussed (the food offered to idols conversation basically says God sometimes accepts folks with differing actions and thoughts).

Let us build up ourselves in Christ.

eddif

 

[eddif]

the Bible is very consistent. i've found that many words keep the same meaning throughout the Bible.
for instance, in Numbers chapter 6, wine and grape juice are both mentioned. wine is wine and grape juice is grape juice. they are not interchangeable.
but what about phrases?
in 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul mentions "there was given me a thorn in my flesh".
Numbers 33:55 mentions a thorn in your sides.
Judges 2:3 mentions a thorn in your sides.
they all seem to have the same meaning.
if so, how would you best describe Pauls' thorn in the flesh.
if not, then what does it all mean?

Finally a little insight hit. (Thank you Holy Spirit)

There may be a couple of levels of thorns (using Romans 1:19-20 and experience)

Genesis 3:16-17
16 Unto the Woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Since it reads "in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life" the thorns are not going to kill him but just bother him (child birth is usually not fatal but it gets close at times-- 2nd wittness).

This IMHO is what Paul faced: trouble but not life threatning.

However​

The thorny locust has individual thorns 2 1/4" to 2 3/4" long and clusters that can be huge. These stuck in your side can be life threatening.​

Always remember that the OT has a huge amount of reference to Jesus. His side was piereced for us (gave up his life).​

In the OT they were warned to not keep the residents of the promised land present. They would be thorns (what kind of thorn?).

I Corinthians 5:1-6 and following text
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are fuffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in the spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a lilttle leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

If the person was in danger of spiritual death(?), then the whole assembly might be lost(?).

This is not a stoning but a discipline to restore the person and protect the Church. So if you picked up stones just throw them down LOL.

Some things in life are an aggravation, but other things can cause our spiritual death (boy I can already hear the screams of those who do not agree--Hey I love you too) LOL.

Paul could learn from his aggravation, and it was not threatening his spiritual life, and by thinking and receiving grace he got insight (all things working for good).

God is good
eddif

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

who are you eddif?
i like you.
great teaching!

 

[precepts]

Paul's thorn in the flesh is represented in art too. It has to do with perception, exercising the senses to the tonque and movement of angels.

Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

This thorn in the flesh is also the reason the Pharisees and Saduccees sin remained, which is the unforgivable sin of reaching angel status by recieveing the mark of the Beast and speaking and moving above human consciousness.

Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Jhn 9:40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

It all has to do with sorcery:

Mic 3:5 Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
Mic 3:6 Therefore night [shall be] unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
Mic 3:7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for [there is] no answer of God.

The vison of the prophets were stopped so Christ would be a witness against the true darkness posing as light with their false miracles and prophesies! That's the message fr0m the old testament's destruction of Shalem to the present. The visions of God have ceased inorder to be a witness against the sorcerors, the false prophets, the spirit of anti-christ!

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

This was and is Paul's thorn in the flesh that exist's today in the world especially in todays Tv subconscious props, etc. Who have eyes to see let them see, and who have ears to hear let them hear! This is a fact!

 

[Deborah13]

In the OT the "thorn in the side" refers to pagan people. They would be a thorn in the side of the Hebrew people and would "vex" them, rather like Paul's buffeting. We know that "infirmity" simply means weakness and can be caused by any number of things.
Taking the below verses into consideration I find it likely that Paul's thorn was persecution and all that goes with it.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

So what was Paul doing that bring on him all the things he listed in v10 for Christ's sake. Preaching the Gospel.


I believe this scripture may bear witness to the scripture above (or vice versa) as to Paul's thorn in the flesh/side as a messanger of Satan/persecution.

Acts 16:16-23

King James Version (KJV)

16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,
21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.
22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.
23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:

 

[eddif]

So what was Paul doing that bring on him all the things he listed in v10 for Christ's sake. Preaching the Gospel.:

We just do not think like God. I sure do not think I have arrived.

Part of the answer is probably here.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Paul was beaten several times; he recovered and moved on.
Paul was bitten by a snake: no ill effects.
Shipwrecked; no real suffering listed
His prison time; listed no lasting effects
etc.

Paul was completing the suffering for the church and made it fine in the above list.
+++++++++++++++
The blindness started out as an (attention getter ?) method to move Paul to where he needed to be in Christ. I think that could make the eyesight in a little different category.

Next person.

eddif

 

[Free]

So what was Paul doing that bring on him all the things he listed in v10 for Christ's sake. Preaching the Gospel.


I believe this scripture may bear witness to the scripture above (or vice versa) as to Paul's thorn in the flesh/side as a messanger of Satan/persecution.

Acts 16:16-23

King James Version (KJV)

16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,
21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.
22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.
23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:

I really don't see how persecution could be what Paul meant by a thorn in his flesh. Jesus was persecuted and hated first and stated that his followers would have to endure the same. As it was, it would seem that many, if not all, of the Apostles and early followers endured much similar persecution.

It would seem that his thorn in the flesh was something more personal to him, such as his eyesight, which really seems to be the best explanation.

 

[Mitspa]

We just do not think like God. I sure do not think I have arrived.

Part of the answer is probably here.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Paul was beaten several times; he recovered and moved on.
Paul was bitten by a snake: no ill effects.
Shipwrecked; no real suffering listed
His prison time; listed no lasting effects
etc.

Paul was completing the suffering for the church and made it fine in the above list.
+++++++++++++++
The blindness started out as an (attention getter ?) method to move Paul to where he needed to be in Christ. I think that could make the eyesight in a little different category.

Next person.

eddif

That reminds me of an old preacher I knew? He prayed for the sick a time or two and it did not seem to work? So he look in his bible and found a good excuse why God does not heal? Then other preachers found out that you really dont have to be a real man of faith, but just look in the scriptures for a good excuse for unbelief. Thus we have or modern faithless and powerless church. Will any admit their unbelief? No, religious pride keeps them from true repentance.

The prayer of FAITH shall save the sick. Not the prayer of excuses and double minded religious doubts. Faith in what? By His stripes ye are healed.

Faith is the confidence of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.

The reason so many like to talk about "PAULS thorn" is because it gives them an excuse to be in unbelief.

We can fool ourselves, but God is not mocked.

 

[eddif]

That reminds me of an old preacher I knew? He prayed for the sick a time or two and it did not seem to work? So he look in his bible and found a good excuse why God does not heal? Then other preachers found out that you really dont have to be a real man of faith, but just look in the scriptures for a good excuse for unbelief. Thus we have or modern faithless and powerless church. Will any admit their unbelief? No, religious pride keeps them from true repentance.

The prayer of FAITH shall save the sick. Not the prayer of excuses and double minded religious doubts. Faith in what? By His stripes ye are healed.

Faith is the confidence of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.

The reason so many like to talk about "PAULS thorn" is because it gives them an excuse to be in unbelief.

We can fool ourselves, but God is not mocked.

Only things are:
Paul is the one telling us he had a thorn in the flesh
He did not use the thorn to slow him down
He said he was a wretched man
He could not get rid of the thorn
With his mind he served Christ
With the flesh the law of sin

Paul seemed to understand all the conflicting statements and kept on keeping on.

Weuns are jest tryn to figgure hit out. LOL

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

Only things are:
Paul is the one telling us he had a thorn in the flesh
He did not use the thorn to slow him down
He said he was a wretched man
He could not get rid of the thorn
With his mind he served Christ
With the flesh the law of sin

Paul seemed to understand all the conflicting statements and kept on keeping on.

Weuns are jest tryn to figgure hit out. LOL

eddif

Well you shared a good ole preacher story the other day, I thought I might also share one. lol

I agree Paul stated all those things. Each one in its place and in its context. One could take his words out of context and make up just about anything they wanted to! As we see many do!
Again I say to those who are so determined to make their sickness a badge of religious suffering? If you really believe that your sickness is Gods will? Why go to the doctor, why take medicine? Are you trying to get out of Gods will?

No pray for more suffering! then you can be really humble!

At try to live by the doctrines you are claiming!

To those who are sick and believe the truth? BY HIS STRIPES YE ARE HEALED

take the faith you have in His Promise, be honest enough to admit where you are in faith, and He will meet you there.

But this stuff about it being Gods Will for you to be sick? will cost you your health and life. Its a lie from satan.

A double minded man cannot expect anything from God, if you half way believe that Christ came to give you life and life in abundance, and half way believe that God wants you sick? Then you will be sick and look for a religious badge of humilty to cover-up your unbelief.

 

[Mitspa]

Only things are:
Paul is the one telling us he had a thorn in the flesh
He did not use the thorn to slow him down
He said he was a wretched man
He could not get rid of the thorn
With his mind he served Christ
With the flesh the law of sin

Paul seemed to understand all the conflicting statements and kept on keeping on.

Weuns are jest tryn to figgure hit out. LOL

eddif

Paul said alot of things for alot of reasons! Each one in its context to show forth a truth. I see that some will take his statements to justify all kinds of unbelief.

Paul never would have tolerated the way some attempt to use his teachings! He might have just put blindness upon some or turned some over to satan? So that they might learn not to blaspheme the work of Christ.