Paul's thorn in the flesh

[Chopper]

In 2 Corinthians Chapter 12 verse 7 it is stated "A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan." Over the years I have heard many expositors say that his thorn was some illness or infirmity. My belief is that the "thorn" was a demon, based on the word "messenger" which, to my knowledge, always means a being or person. It makes sense to me especially when I read Chapter 11 verses 16 through 29. I'm curious what others believe and why.

 

[gr8grace]

In 2 Corinthians Chapter 12 verse 7 it is stated "A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan." Over the years I have heard many expositors say that his thorn was some illness or infirmity. My belief is that the "thorn" was a demon, based on the word "messenger" which, to my knowledge, always means a being or person. It makes sense to me especially when I read Chapter 11 verses 16 through 29. I'm curious what others believe and why.

In the original language we have it spelled out for us. It was an angel of Satan. A fallen angel that was Pauls thorn.

2 Cor 12:7~~

aggelos 0032 mas ---- nom s noun--- angel 15
satavas 4567 mas ---- gen s noun--- Satan 16

It was given for Pauls benefit. Paul knew more doctrine than anyone else. It kept Him humble.

 

[Brother Mike]

It was given for Pauls benefit. Paul knew more doctrine than anyone else. It kept Him humble.

Satan does nothing to benefit anyone. Some post of yours are great then right back into religious thinking. You can do better than this grace........ Think, Paul said he had been given an abundance of revelation, we know the Lord Jesus gave that revelation to him.

So, Satan wants to keep Paul Humble (To help Paul) So Satan kindly sends a messenger to benefit Paul. How does that sound? Some days, Satan is just kind that way and wants to help little old ladies across the streets. Satan is just that way some days, right?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors, teachers AND SATAN;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

2Ti_3:16 All scripture and SATAN's HELP is given by inspiration of God and SATAN, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Trust me, Satan don't care about us at all enough to help in any way that would benefit us. Satan is a murderer, thief, and a destroyer of things and lives. Satan is not working for the Kingdom of God, because Jesus said the Kingdoms are not divided in any way. Jesus was not using devil power to help people get healed and casting out devils and the devil is not helping Jesus casting out devils and getting people healed.

Read what Paul said, there was a messenger sent by Satan to stop Paul from preaching all this revelation knowledge. Study, translate and meditate, compare other scriptures.

What did Paul say he would rather be? Paul did not have a pride issue, if anyone that had some pride in them it would have been Peter who Paul corrected. Paul was a very humble person.

We know God did not send the messenger because the scripture tells us it was Satan that did that. Why would Satan do that?

Paul made a mistake, and learned from it, what was that mistake. What did Paul say later in Philippians ?

It was people, but motivated by the messenger. Keep reading the whole passage as Paul tells us exactly what happened and who the thorn was.

If you need to cheat, you can read this.............

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52362&highlight=paul+thorn

Blessings

Mike.

 

[gr8grace]

It was given for Pauls benefit. Paul knew more doctrine than anyone else. It kept Him humble.

Satan does nothing to benefit anyone. Some post of yours are great then right back into religious thinking. You can do better than this grace........ Think, Paul said he had been given an abundance of revelation, we know the Lord Jesus gave that revelation to him.

So, Satan wants to keep Paul Humble (To help Paul) So Satan kindly sends a messenger to benefit Paul. How does that sound? Some days, Satan is just kind that way and wants to help little old ladies across the streets. Satan is just that way some days, right?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors, teachers AND SATAN;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

2Ti_3:16 All scripture and SATAN's HELP is given by inspiration of God and SATAN, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Trust me, Satan don't care about us at all enough to help in any way that would benefit us. Satan is a murderer, thief, and a destroyer of things and lives. Satan is not working for the Kingdom of God, because Jesus said the Kingdoms are not divided in any way. Jesus was not using devil power to help people get healed and casting out devils and the devil is not helping Jesus casting out devils and getting people healed.

Read what Paul said, there was a messenger sent by Satan to stop Paul from preaching all this revelation knowledge. Study, translate and meditate, compare other scriptures.

What did Paul say he would rather be? Paul did not have a pride issue, if anyone that had some pride in them it would have been Peter who Paul corrected. Paul was a very humble person.

We know God did not send the messenger because the scripture tells us it was Satan that did that. Why would Satan do that?

Paul made a mistake, and learned from it, what was that mistake. What did Paul say later in Philippians ?

It was people, but motivated by the messenger. Keep reading the whole passage as Paul tells us exactly what happened and who the thorn was.

If you need to cheat, you can read this.............

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52362&highlight=paul+thorn

Blessings

Mike.

Mike,

God can use ALL things for Good.....for those that love him. Paul loved the Lord.

Satan does NOTHING for anybodies Good, but God can allow Satan to do things that the Lord WILL use for Good.

2 Cor 12:7~~Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself!

Messenger of Satan.....

aggelos 0032 mas ---- nom s noun--- angel 15
satavas 4567 mas ---- gen s noun--- Satan 16 .....an Angel of Satan.

Satans thinking.....I will torment this poor sap.

Gods thinking .....I will allow it and use for Pauls benefit and Good in the end.

 

[Brother Mike]

Gods thinking .....I will allow it and use for Pauls benefit and Good in the end.

We would need a passage to let us know that God ordained and allowed Satan to get Paul. Paul was very spiritual minded and pretty amazing Paul knew exactly what the problem was. A messenger of Satan sent to stir the people up against Paul with a anti Gospel message.

Paul knows this, and as I said that is amazing as Paul also wrote we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, our issues are coming from the dark Kingdom (My paraphrase)

Paul also did the will of God perfectly and would never go against God.

So consider........................... Would Paul ask the Lord 3 times to get that messenger out of there if Paul knew the messenger was to help and benefit him? If God is doing anything for us Good, or allowing it then we don't ask God not to allow it.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

What is Paul going to do with all this abundance of revelation and knowledge? He is going to preach it and share it. Does God give good things, then knock us in the head for giving us things? No God does not....

Jas_1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Pro_10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

So, by other scriptures we know that God did not hook Paul up with all this wonderful knowledge then allow Satan to attack with a messenger to keep Paul humble for the gift of Knowledge Paul had gotten. If that were the case, then God would be allowing Satan to attack lots of people in the body of Christ today for studying and learning His Word.

You don't teach a child, then stand back and allow someone to beat them because of what you taught them. It don't make sense.

So this messenger comes in with a different message that opposes all of Paul's message and revelation. This messenger stirs up the people against Paul to buffet him. Buffet means to resist or stop.

So it was not that Paul had all this knowledge and needed to be humbled. There is nothing there that suggested Paul needed humbled. What Paul said was so that "HE" would not be exalted with all his wonderful knowledge that would turn people to Jesus Christ.

God had nothing to do with this, or even allowed it. This is Paul's issue and deal. You see where Paul made his mistake and got corrected by the Lord?

The Greek Word buffet means to be harshly treated by others. I am not sure any translation gets it perfect, but that is what the Word means.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

here was Paul's issue............... My grace is sufficient........... There was more than enough power in abundance to overcome this situation. So God is not allowing something despite the grace that was there. God is not going against or allowing against the grace of the Lord Jesus. Something else is happening here and Paul told us...... So He would not be exalted....................

What is Satan stopping? Satan is stopping the people from getting all that revelation knowledge. How is Satan able to stop it? Because Paul was just giving the knowledge without factoring in the anointing.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The Power of Christ, the Power of the Lord's anointing. Not with our own knowledge or power, but the Lord's power and anointing.

Where we tend to feel strong at, we tend to not rely on the Lord's ability. This is why Paul said I would rather be weak in something, something He was not over confident about so he would have to trust the Lord and lean on the anointing of God.

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's (Anointing sake): for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul attempted to go in and preach the Word according to his abundance of revelation. Paul did not factor in the anointing and God's ability on Paul. This is what happens when we think we know everything about something.

I know a lot about computers but I have learned to stop and get wisdom from the Holy Spirit if something goes wrong. Not doing so has cost me lots of time trying to figure out what is wrong with them.

Paul later wrote........

Php_4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Paul learned to not trust in his own knowledge, but get into that grace that the Power of the anointing would be there to see him through. Even if we think we know the clear and simple answer to something, we should always check in with God and trust in his ability no matter how easy something looks for us. God's wisdom and power in our lives beats our own strength and ability.

Mike.

 

[gr8grace]

Gods thinking .....I will allow it and use for Pauls benefit and Good in the end.

We would need a passage to let us know that God ordained and allowed Satan to get Paul. Paul was very spiritual minded and pretty amazing Paul knew exactly what the problem was. A messenger of Satan sent to stir the people up against Paul with a anti Gospel message.

Paul knows this, and as I said that is amazing as Paul also wrote we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, our issues are coming from the dark Kingdom (My paraphrase)

Paul also did the will of God perfectly and would never go against God.

So consider........................... Would Paul ask the Lord 3 times to get that messenger out of there if Paul knew the messenger was to help and benefit him? If God is doing anything for us Good, or allowing it then we don't ask God not to allow it.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

What is Paul going to do with all this abundance of revelation and knowledge? He is going to preach it and share it. Does God give good things, then knock us in the head for giving us things? No God does not....

Jas_1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Pro_10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

So, by other scriptures we know that God did not hook Paul up with all this wonderful knowledge then allow Satan to attack with a messenger to keep Paul humble for the gift of Knowledge Paul had gotten. If that were the case, then God would be allowing Satan to attack lots of people in the body of Christ today for studying and learning His Word.

You don't teach a child, then stand back and allow someone to beat them because of what you taught them. It don't make sense.

So this messenger comes in with a different message that opposes all of Paul's message and revelation. This messenger stirs up the people against Paul to buffet him. Buffet means to resist or stop.

So it was not that Paul had all this knowledge and needed to be humbled. There is nothing there that suggested Paul needed humbled. What Paul said was so that "HE" would not be exalted with all his wonderful knowledge that would turn people to Jesus Christ.

God had nothing to do with this, or even allowed it. This is Paul's issue and deal. You see where Paul made his mistake and got corrected by the Lord?

The Greek Word buffet means to be harshly treated by others. I am not sure any translation gets it perfect, but that is what the Word means.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

here was Paul's issue............... My grace is sufficient........... There was more than enough power in abundance to overcome this situation. So God is not allowing something despite the grace that was there. God is not going against or allowing against the grace of the Lord Jesus. Something else is happening here and Paul told us...... So He would not be exalted....................

What is Satan stopping? Satan is stopping the people from getting all that revelation knowledge. How is Satan able to stop it? Because Paul was just giving the knowledge without factoring in the anointing.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The Power of Christ, the Power of the Lord's anointing. Not with our own knowledge or power, but the Lord's power and anointing.

Where we tend to feel strong at, we tend to not rely on the Lord's ability. This is why Paul said I would rather be weak in something, something He was not over confident about so he would have to trust the Lord and lean on the anointing of God.

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's (Anointing sake): for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul attempted to go in and preach the Word according to his abundance of revelation. Paul did not factor in the anointing and God's ability on Paul. This is what happens when we think we know everything about something.

I know a lot about computers but I have learned to stop and get wisdom from the Holy Spirit if something goes wrong. Not doing so has cost me lots of time trying to figure out what is wrong with them.

Paul later wrote........

Php_4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Paul learned to not trust in his own knowledge, but get into that grace that the Power of the anointing would be there to see him through. Even if we think we know the clear and simple answer to something, we should always check in with God and trust in his ability no matter how easy something looks for us. God's wisdom and power in our lives beats our own strength and ability.

Mike.

Satan does absolutely positively nothing without God allowing it to happen.

God bless Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Satan does absolutely positively nothing without God allowing it to happen.

Would you be able to give a scripture reference to that? We are all here to learn, and we Know Jesus said the Kingdoms are not working together. In a sense you are correct though as we see that the inflictions of Satan come with judgment. If we translated the Hebrew tense for things God said he caused, it should be in most cases translated "Allowed" So that would be correct.

We have no NT examples of God giving permission to Satan to get anyone, we do have Paul though using Satan in 3 cases for disobedience where Paul turns over those to his enemy. One case was a man sleeping with his fathers wife.

So then the question would be................. since we are told to not give place to the devil, what happens if by our own choices do? Is God involved in that if we get the result God already said we would get?

If we find our answer that then answers Paul's thorn question. Was God involved? Or was Paul approaching things wrong and got smacked by Satan's messenger? Jesus said the grace was always there so it would seem that God would not have allowed or gave permission but that Paul did not consider something available already to him.

What do you think?

Mike.

 

[gr8grace]

Satan does absolutely positively nothing without God allowing it to happen.

Would you be able to give a scripture reference to that? We are all here to learn, and we Know Jesus said the Kingdoms are not working together. In a sense you are correct though as we see that the inflictions of Satan come with judgment. If we translated the Hebrew tense for things God said he caused, it should be in most cases translated "Allowed" So that would be correct.

We have no NT examples of God giving permission to Satan to get anyone, we do have Paul though using Satan in 3 cases for disobedience where Paul turns over those to his enemy. One case was a man sleeping with his fathers wife.

So then the question would be................. since we are told to not give place to the devil, what happens if by our own choices do? Is God involved in that if we get the result God already said we would get?

If we find our answer that then answers Paul's thorn question. Was God involved? Or was Paul approaching things wrong and got smacked by Satan's messenger? Jesus said the grace was always there so it would seem that God would not have allowed or gave permission but that Paul did not consider something available already to him.

What do you think?

Mike.

Mike,

I am finished.

God Bless.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you gr8grace, Right on! Not only are you correct but answer in a simple understanding way. A long time ago I heard the phrase KISS "Keep it simple stupid" and I've always tried to do that. In some of the posts that I've read I perceive that some fancy themselves as spiritual intellectuals. Personally I've known a few and they tend not to address a specific question but dance around with a barage of meaningless words. I have always remembered what a great preacher once said (I think it was Harry Ironside) "Put the cookie jar down where the kids can get at it."

 

[Chopper]

Hi Mike, I did cheat and I don't agree with your conclusion. It's possible but not likely. Lets look at the word "Buffet". That word actually interprets the meaning of this passage. Buffet, according to Vine has two meanings. 1. Gk. kolaphizo, to strike with clenched fist. 2. Gk. hupopiazo, To strike under the eye, hence, to give a black eye. First you have receiving a blow (hurt) and then you have a black eye (reminder) All this was meant to keep Paul humble, not that he was not. It was a secondary reminder. If I'm correct in believing that Chap 11 holds his "buffet" 5 times he was scourged? 3 times beaten with rods? Countless beatings? close to death? I think Paul was hurt a lot, and It kept him more humble over a vast amout of time. A classic portion of Scripture that explains how God uses Satan is found in Job 1.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi Mike, I did cheat and I don't agree with your conclusion. It's possible but not likely. Lets look at the word "Buffet". That word actually interprets the meaning of this passage. Buffet, according to Vine has two meanings. 1. Gk. kolaphizo, to strike with clenched fist. 2. Gk. hupopiazo, To strike under the eye, hence, to give a black eye. First you have receiving a blow (hurt) and then you have a black eye (reminder) All this was meant to keep Paul humble, not that he was not

Blessings Chopper!!! I see your new here, so praise God.

My next question would be.......... Are you a Word person or stuck in religion. You teachable or just here to give opinion? I guess we are going to find out.

I already said the Word buffet was translated bad in the post above, but nonetheless The messenger stopped Paul Cold in his tracks. The messenger did this by getting the people pretty mad at Paul.

Now you said I could possibly be right............ That gives me hope that you will get this. When someone post something that I don't agree on, I have to look at the scripture they used and ask myself....... could it be possible? Or is there way to many other scripture contradictions?

So, Is it possible, or is there to many other scripture contradictions?

So, Paul needed to be Humbled?

I have a hard time buying this with Paul, one of the most Humble of all the writers. If anyone needed humbled it would be Peter or John. John was convinced He was the Lord's favorite over all of them and he was not to shy to let the others know that. Paul though???

The other problem I have is that Paul already had the answer to the problem.......... "My Grace is sufficient"

So, more than enough power already there to get rid of that messenger and stop the mouth and actions of the people. So, you can't be hurt by these people as Paul called the People thorns (Common name for people that don't listen to the truth in the OT which Paul quoted) If Paul is operating under the Grace and the Power of Christ and not through His own head knowledge.

Your right Chopper............. Paul had a very miserable day as Satan kicked his butt big time.

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying

For the anointing sake (Power of the anointing -Christ- His power for us) Paul now says he takes pleasure in areas where He is unsure of things and weak in things.

So Paul goes in with his vast knowledge and does not factor in the Power of Christ so Satan hands it to him through getting the people all pissed off at Paul.

We get that...................... That is not the question though. The question is.............

Does God allow or give permission to the devil to clobber us and teach us things.

It is all about our understanding of who God is, God's character and nature, and our trust in him. If God just sends the tools of hell to teach us things in pain and suffering then the Word is not good enough and the ministers He gave us to perfect the body of Christ is not good enough. Only the great loving ability of Satan is excellent enough to teach the Children of God.

Think about that............... Is that really true about God?

So our understanding of Paul's Thorn comes from a event that occurred even further back. JOB.

God gives the devil permission to murder Job's children, steal all of Job's wealth, and make Job deathly sick.

As they say in AA meetings......... The God of our understanding. Is this the God of our understanding?

A classic portion of Scripture that explains how God uses Satan is found in Job 1.

Is that really what happened in Job Chopper? The classic understanding,? God really send a hit man to murder the children of someone that served God? Our God did that? You can put your trust in someone and serve them knowing that at any moment they can decided to have your children murdered? I hope not, I hope you have more sense than that. We will see........... Some are not that bright though and believe God they claim to serve did just that to the mans kids who served him.

I won't get into Job, but think about it.................... Every place in scriptures where a man serves God their Children are blessed!!! Not murdered. All places except Job.

Jos_8:34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.

What happened to people that choose to be blessed? choices are made by Actions and words. What if you choose not to be blessed? What happens then? What happens if you say things opposite of what God said? you choose curse, and bad things.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Did Job's children live?

Who's choice was that? What did God say? There are absolutely no scripture contradictions and God has never changed.

I think the "Classic Job" needs to be re-examined or we have a whole bunch of scripture contradictions and that can't be.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Mike, I have not responded right away because I like to ponder what you say and to be careful to understan what you say. I believe I'm a word person and a Word person. You ask if I'm stuck in religion, whatever that means. Funk & Wagnalls define religion as "A belief binding the spiritual nature of man to a supernatural being, as involving a feeling of dependence and responsibility, together with the feelings and practices which naturally flow from such a belief". So, yes I'm religious. Do I see myself cemented in some form of religious thought taught by men who like to put people into little boxes? No! I am a servant of Jesus the Christ and I strive to "put on the mind of Christ" as I submit to Him. My aim is to receive instruction from anointed men called of God. My opinion is of no importance and I try, though unsucessful at times, to present what I feel is the Word of God.
In reading your reply, I perceive, forgive me if I'm wrong, that you are not focused on the word "Paradise". Lets consider Paradise, Gk paradeisos, a Persian word used in the Septuagent. Some teach that it is the very dwelling place of God. Jesus said in Luke 23:43 "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". Lets reason together, if that's possible, what Paradise is and its importance. Paul said "he heard that cannot be told, which man may not utter." This was for Paul only and the point is, can he, by himself, keep this to himself or will he need something from God to insure that he never devulge any of this except the readers of Scripture. Later, he said "because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations". Now I assume (I know the joke about that word) he saw as well as heard. What did he see and hear? I'm not aware, at this writing, that any other human has ever been to Paradise. Did he hear or see the Almighty? Angels? Departed Saints? Abraham, Moses? You get the point. Whatever he heard and perhaps saw, he felt that he wanted to boast because it was the truth. He says "but I refrain from it , so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me." OK, lets stop for a minute, I have used the word humility and I apologize. The word in question here is KJV "exalted" or better in my ESV "conceited". Now we both know that Paul was very humble, no question! Now conceit is akin to the absence of humility. Paul himself, not me, says "so to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing (Gk huperbole, a throwing beyond others or supereminence) greatness of revelation, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being conceited." Now I doubt that there was a conceited bone in Pauls body and God did not want this experience to creat it. The reason I don't agree with you primarily is the words "in the flesh" and "messenger". Paul already had many enemies right at the get go. He always had people who were after him to hurt him and stop him, so the thorn would not make sense. So whoever the thorn is it will deal with Pauls flesh, not his emotions and the word messenger is singular.
Mike, I don't mean to offend you, you come across to me as someone who has a surface understanding of God's Word. I'm sorry but that is how your writing appears to me. It does not appear to be word studied, notice I did not say Word studied. You appear to be very knowledgeable and I delight in your posts, I give them a lot of thought before I answer. I am teachable, are you? Iron sharpens iron. I will speak on Job at a later date.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi Mike, I have not responded right away because I like to ponder what you say and to be careful to understan what you say. I believe I'm a word person and a Word person.

Praise God!!! Word person is good. That means no contradictions in even on Scripture. I had a knowing you were this way because you said I could only possilby be right. It's not about me being right though but you examined things to entertain the possibility because the scripture might have by some chance supported my position and you saw that in the Word.

This really impressed me...

Mike, I don't mean to offend you, you come across to me as someone who has a surface understanding of God's Word.

No, not offended at all. In fact that is very, good and I am thankful for that boldness.

I am teachable, are you? Iron sharpens iron. I will speak on Job at a later date.

I am always examining things, The Word corrects us, not the other way around. I want you to understand one thing though. No scripture can contradict. Not a single scripture as they all must be perfect and line up. God is just awesome and God never changes. He has not changed one tiny bit and it's because God never changes we have great hope.

I want you to consider what being a "WORD" Person means. You and I don't want to be prideful about it but be sincerer about it because almost anyone will tell you they are a word person here on the forums but they are not.

There is another here that is a Word person. TruthandTradition. If the Word says it, then the Word says it despite what religion says. Now when I talk about reliegion, I mean that old belief's, and traditions have precedence over the Word or even one scripture.

So think about that. A Word person can not have one, not one scripture in contradiction with their belief system or Doctrine. A Word person only wants to do the will of God from the time they get up, until bed time. It's all God, the whole day is structured around God.

This has to be in place or otherwise spiritually a person my consider themselves a Word person, but they just won't see things that are there. You must be sold out to following the plan of God for your life. It's not our smarts, not our own effort to be correct in the Word. It's this spiritual law here, that if you want to do the will of God and a doer of the word then this is what gets God to reveal himself through his word to you.

That is what happens to the Word person. They are sold out out to God, so being a Word person is not just to understand the Word, but it's understanding who God is through God revealing himself to you through that Word. A better term is relationship.

Joh_7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

We have a whole lot of people here that know lot of Word scriptures. That is good, personal study time is just awesome to show ourselves approved unto God a workman that does not need to be ashamed but rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

They miss the most important part though. God could never ask them to sell their house and just move, could not ask them to give 100.00 to someone if it was their last 100.00, God just can't get through to them at all and they don't even really hear God or pay attention to what is inside their own born again spirit.

Because of that, because they are not sold out, they are doctrinally off and stuck in traditions and natural understanding of the Word. Religion!!!!

I did not say that, Jesus said that. So being a Word person must also accompany being a plan of God person, and person that responds to God at the drop of a hat. Willing to give all when asked despite us needing it for our own bills and needs.

It does not appear to be word studied, notice I did not say Word studied.

Just to put your mind at ease, I have been studying faith and building this faith relationship with the Father for over 14 years. I would like to say less, but time goes by so fast. It does not make me right in everything, but it makes my understanding slant with understanding who God is, and how God operates. That is the difference in the understanding.

One the surface it looks like Paul might have needed some pride knocked out of there. A person focused on natural things like pride and stealing, committing adultery believers that there must always be correction. So the thought is Paul needed humbled as God makes sure we all stay humble and in line.

We know that is not true in real life though. We can go years being prideful and God not do a thing. God years stealing and God just sit back and watch us mess our life up. It's not true for us, and was not true in Paul's case. To be corrected of the Lord he always deals with us through the Word, he does not send devils to do his job for him.

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, (Dividing out thinking from the Word) and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Paul would have responded quickly to any Word correction, Paul did not need a messenger of Satan to stir up the people against Paul. Jesus said the grace to overcome the issue was already there, in sufficient supply.

Num_33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Paul being a knower of the Law being a Far-Sighted-ee a birth the stock of great religious leaders quoted us the OT to let us know the people were not very kind to Paul when he went to expound on all his vast knowledge. Buffet really does mean to be mistreated, and this is what these people did to Paul when Paul tried to expound his great and wonderful knowledge.

The people just plainly did not receive Paul, and Paul had enough spiritual insight to know it was the messenger of Satan sent to stir these people up against Paul. Paul did not blame the people but had enough knowledge to know what the issue was. This is someone that is not being humbled, this is someone that Satan is stopping from getting the message out. Paul would have been able to pick up any correction from God if Paul had enough sense to know what was really behind the problem.

Paul went on to say, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. A man with that much revelation would not have needed a messenger from Satan to keep him humble. Paul went in trying to accomplish the mission with his vast knowledge given to him by the Lord, and did not factor in the Anointing. The anointing was there (The Power of Christ) but Paul instead tried to get the job done by what he knew and Satan knocked the slats from underneath him.

Have you every preached in a church?

I was a Pastor of one for awhile, I had the Sunday morning service and I would prepare and study all week just for that one Sunday. Knowing what Paul taught us though, I knew nobody was going to get help based on my knowledge. So before going to the pulpit I would always tell the Lord, your way, I will just drop these notes and only say what you need said, do what you need done, these are you people Lord.

I think I got to use my notes like 2 times. I even wondered what the point of study was but was reminded that sermons made can always be used later and I knew a little more anyway for the study.

I trusted in the Power of Christ and not my own knowledge. This is where Paul missed it, by not factoring in that Grace and anointing that was already there. Paul said I would rather go into to something weak (Not proficient not full of knowledge) so that for the Anointing sake he would be strong.

I can do all things through my knowledge???

No...

I can do all things through the anointed ones anointing for us........... All things through (Christ- the work of the Messiah's anointing for us)

Before you respond about Job................... think.....

Does God send or give permission to a crazed and disobedient spirit to murder the children of people that serve God? Does God who saved and love us really do that? Look past what the Word apparently says and also add in the character and personality of our good, good God.

Being a Word person, ask yourself why everyone else in the Bible (Except Job) had their children murdered who served God. Everyone else their seed lived that chooses life. Why is Job different, does God change? Can God be tempted to do evil? A word person examines all these things, and religious person only takes one or two scriptures and ignores the rest of the Word.

Does God plan everything, does God know everything? How does God know things?

This is a test............... examine this scripture. Is this scripture wrong? I choose a commonly believed thing about God to see what your response would be.

Gen_18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Keep in mind, religion has hid from us who our great God is, and how He operates.

Blessings

Mike.

 

[Fyre]

In 2 Corinthians Chapter 12 verse 7 it is stated "A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan." Over the years I have heard many expositors say that his thorn was some illness or infirmity. My belief is that the "thorn" was a demon, based on the word "messenger" which, to my knowledge, always means a being or person. It makes sense to me especially when I read Chapter 11 verses 16 through 29. I'm curious what others believe and why.

Hi there Chopper! God bless you! Im sorta new here but I hope you don't mind me adding in what I might be catching a little. Heres some comparisons I think might be helpful.

I hope the colors aren't bothersome, I study using them to divide because I have poor eyesight myself. I could actually highlight the whole post and change the colors to all black if that would be better on the eyes (for everyone else). I always find them helpful ...I cant get the size to cooperate with me here. Originally this post had much larger font but its reducing it to where I cant even read it. Maybe someone can tell me how to fix this?

I was looking at these....

Gal 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

And likewise...There was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan

See between the two?

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years

Though Paul asked for "this thing" to taken from him but he was told His grace was sufficient for him

2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Then here, notice....

Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

^Now That^ would show "my temptation" in my flesh

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

There was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan

Whereas we see here....Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

2Cr 12:7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Jesus shows that Satan desired to have Simon too

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Christ is the power of God, who prayed for Simons faith

1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

Paul likewise called it "my temptation" which was in my flesh

And notice Paul calls it "my temptation"? But also notice Satan said of Job touch his flesh (and he will "curse you" along with the same??). Wouldn't that indicate that what was touched (in respects to his flesh) was also closely linked to "a particular temptation" (shown in Job as "he will curse you") if Paul called "my temptation" in the very same (his flesh)?

I have various studies on this, I find this very fascinating when comparing these things in various places.

 

[Chopper]

Hi again Brother Mike. I thank God for you! I appreciate your reply. I do see where you are coming from and I like the depth of which you go into the Scriptures. You certainly are not a surface student of the Word. I wanted to know some things about you in order for me to trust and learn from you. I don't know it all, I know some and looking for someone who goes deep into the Scriptures as I do and has a meaningful devotion to Jesus Christ and can expound in areas that I wonder about. Each day I surrender to my Master Jesus so that He can present me a holy and acceptable sacrifice to His Father. My mornings are made up of Prayer, Bible study, praise and meditating on what I've read. Jesus, my Master, is the most important aspect of any day. I think it was Chuck Swindoll who said "I write out my schedule for the day in pencil and give God the eraser".

I see your points in Paul's Thorn and honor you not to say more about my view. I think, sometimes, it's best to appreciate another man's viewpoint and realize that his reasoning has validity, I don't agree with everything a man writes but he is free not to believe as I do.

About Job. I'm not going to say much right not but I would like your thinking on Chapter 1:6-12. Why was Satan allowed to do what he did to Job.

 

[Brother Mike]

And notice Paul calls it "my temptation"? But also notice Satan said of Job touch his flesh (and he will "curse you" along with the same??). Wouldn't that indicate that what was touched (in respects to his flesh) was also closely linked to "a particular temptation" (shown in Job as "he will curse you") if Paul called "my temptation" in the very same (his flesh)?

I have various studies on this, I find this very fascinating when comparing these things in various places.

Satan seems to have some connection in all these examples you have given. Jesus did pray for Simon (Peter) Peter is the one that denied Jesus and Jesus came back and asked 3 times if Peter loved him as Peter denied Jesus 3 times.

Christ is the power of God, who prayed for Simons faith

Through the power of the anointed ones anointing for us, the Power of Christ, are you saying we need to factor this in and not our own abilities and strengths?

Is Job really connected to this though? Paul and Peter came out with flying colors and lived long lives, completing all the Word God had for them. Job did well at the end also but the grief of loosing your children and all your possessions as Job's wealth was tied up in all his livestock it seems as if Job might have had a different situation.

Job also blamed God through the whole thing,Paul and Peter felt that God was the source of getting protected and delivered, Job just blamed God, even blamed God for having planed his birth.

It is a fascinating study though. How much here are we missing?

Mike.

 

[gr8grace]

Peter also taught that it is Gods will that we suffer.

1 Pet 4:19~~ Suffer according to the will of God.

Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. 1 Pet 4:19

Peter taught that the Christian WILL suffer, deserved and UNDESERVED.

Suffering unjustly, 1 Pet 2:19.~~19For this [finds] favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

Suffer as a Christian, 1 Pet 4:16.~~ If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you

Such suffering finds favor with God, 1 Pet 2:19-20~~19 For this [finds] favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer [for it] you patiently endure it, this [finds] favor with God.


Deserved suffering brings no blessing, just cursing and divine discipline, 1 Pet 2:20~~For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer [for it] you patiently endure it, this [finds] favor with God.

 

[Fyre]

And notice Paul calls it "my temptation"? But also notice Satan said of Job touch his flesh (and he will "curse you" along with the same??). Wouldn't that indicate that what was touched (in respects to his flesh) was also closely linked to "a particular temptation" (shown in Job as "he will curse you") if Paul called "my temptation" in the very same (his flesh)?

I have various studies on this, I find this very fascinating when comparing these things in various places.

Satan seems to have some connection in all these examples you have given. Jesus did pray for Simon (Peter) Peter is the one that denied Jesus and Jesus came back and asked 3 times if Peter loved him as Peter denied Jesus 3 times.

Christ is the power of God, who prayed for Simons faith

Through the power of the anointed ones anointing for us, the Power of Christ, are you saying we need to factor this in and not our own abilities and strengths?

Is Job really connected to this though? Paul and Peter came out with flying colors and lived long lives, completing all the Word God had for them. Job did well at the end also but the grief of loosing your children and all your possessions as Job's wealth was tied up in all his livestock it seems as if Job might have had a different situation.

Job also blamed God through the whole thing,Paul and Peter felt that God was the source of getting protected and delivered, Job just blamed God, even blamed God for having planed his birth.

It is a fascinating study though. How much here are we missing?

Mike.

We are told to consider the "patience of" Job right? When you look up patience its worked through tribulation itself. Thus the patience of Job is connected to the tribulations he endured. As it says, "tribulation worketh patience". Ironically his flesh was touched in more then just himself. Just as a man and woman become one flesh, Satans temptation (in his flesh) echoed through Jobs own wife. So through her also come out, "curse God and die" notice that? Because Satan (who desired to sift Job) as he would later desire to sift Peter said put forth your hand and touch his flesh and he shall curse you to your face, and Job's own wife (his flesh) was provoking him to the same (as Satan). Even through her.

Job said, though he slay me yet will I trust in Him. That when he has tried me... (see the "trying of your faith" there?) I shall come forth as gold? The same is noted in Peters words in respects to the manifold of temptations that have come to them, and speaks of these coming for "the trying of your faith" which is more precious then gold. And Peter (there) is doing what the Lord had said, when thou art converted "strengthen thy brethren". That's also shown in affirming souls of the brthren that through much tribulation we enter the kingdom of God also.

Even God said to Satan, thou movest me against him without cause, even as Job said the same, " For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause"

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

And ofcourse a kind of dare (or challenge) was put forth to the Lord in respects to Job, which can be comprehended somewhat in what Jesus tells Simon (expressing Satans desire to have him)

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Permission granted here

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

So it looks like the same permission is being granted here also

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Same, back and forth....

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job,

And Jesus also says...

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Tribulation worketh this patience

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Our Lord prayed his faith fail not in the trying of it

James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

So James could say...

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

Just as we see in our Lord too

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

Wanting nothing and returning (from this) in the power of the Spirit

So likewise (again)

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

To sift (as in) to shake in a seive to the point of trying to overthrow (and in respects to the faith)

But...

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

We see Peter understands this (and is strengthening His brethren in repects to these very things now) as the Lord instructed him to.

Just as the woman could no wise lift herself up, and Job sat down among the ashes, and lest Paul exalt himself above measure, all seem very comparable in such "low places" the way they speak.

There was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Lest he be exalted above measure (with Paul) and shown sitting down in the ashes (with Job)

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

The woman, who could in "no wise lift herself up"

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

Either bent down (low) sitting among the ashes (low) or not being able to exalt himself (lowly) as shown in Paul.

Im actually having trouble posting here, I cant get the font larger, and I am very familiar with posting on various forums, but when I highlight and click a larger number font its just not sticking here.

Sorry about that.

 

[Chopper]

Hi there flame, welcome to the forum. It's always good to see a lady who loves the Lord and His Word. Where is Mount Sion? I appreciate your discipline of study and presentation on the forum. I too started in August and so far have enjoyed this experience. I hope you will too.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you gr8grace for your addition. As a pastor of four churches I'm acquainted with suffering unjustly and probably all pastors in the forum. I'm glad you put "in the will of God".