Bible Study Paul's visit to third Heaven

[ravindran_eee]

I searched around the forum a little to see if I am posting a duplicate thread. Did not find any! Paul talks about him being taken up to third heaven. In the book of 2 Corinthians. This is always debated. In modern days, we have so many people writing books about being taken up to heaven. I am from India. I don't know if people know DGS Dhinakaran. He is like Billy Graham back in India. He has written a book titled something like "Insights into heaven". He has claimed that he has been taken up to heaven on numerable occasions. Met Peter and Paul, talked with them, seen the throne of Jesus and other things.

I would like to get a more deeper biblical understanding of this. I firmly believe that any human is fallible and only Bible is infallible. Everything should be tested against the Word of God. These are my specific questions,

1) There are only 3 people as per Bible who had seen heaven while on earth. Stephen, Paul and John. Stephen - First martyr recorded in Bible. Paul - Received the Gospel directly from heaven and wrote almost two-third of NT. John - Received Revelation and penned it down. Every person who had seen heaven has something big behind them! But these days we hear small kids going to heaven. How do you see it?

2) Most of the modern day preachers claim easily that they were taken up to heaven. Do we believe them?

3) Lastly, the biggest question. All these preachers claim that there are different levels of heaven. Paul's visit to third heaven really means 3rd of the heavens itself (and not the traditional understanding of visible atmosphere as first heaven, space as second heaven and presence of God as third heaven). How do you see it?

 

[TOG]

1) There are only 3 people as per Bible who had seen heaven while on earth. Stephen, Paul and John. Stephen - First martyr recorded in Bible. Paul - Received the Gospel directly from heaven and wrote almost two-third of NT. John - Received Revelation and penned it down. Every person who had seen heaven has something big behind them! But these days we hear small kids going to heaven. How do you see it?

I can think of at least one more. Elijah was taken up to Heaven without dying, which is the same as Enoch.

2) Most of the modern day preachers claim easily that they were taken up to heaven. Do we believe them?

I tend not to.

3) Lastly, the biggest question. All these preachers claim that there are different levels of heaven. Paul's visit to third heaven really means 3rd of the heavens itself (and not the traditional understanding of visible atmosphere as first heaven, space as second heaven and presence of God as third heaven). How do you see it?

I understand it in light of the contemporary Jewish beliefs about Heaven at that time. Jews believed that there were 7 heavens. There are a few different explanations that I've heard about what is in each heaven, but they all agree that the 7th heaven is where the throne of God is. The third heaven is either where the dead go to await judgment or where the Garden of Eden is, depending on which interpretation you prefer.

The TOG​

 

[ravindran_eee]

Elijah and Ehnoch are different.. They walked into heaven and never came back.. I am talking about visiting heaven and coming back..

The problem is trying to explain heaven without strong Biblical support.. I have heard many say there are different heavens.. Kids have one heaven.. Mentally challenged people have another heaven.. There is one preacher in India who mentioned when he visited heaven, angels were conducting classes for kids.. That was paradise.. And there are some who mix rewards with this concept.. If justification is by faith alone, I do not know if one would be treated above another in the presence of Lord.. Rewards - yes, that would be different for everyone

 

[th1b.taylor]

When I run into one of these claims I find it wise to see if their claims contradict any of the Bible teaching. Many try to argue me into their point of view and, there-in lies the problem.

The Chief Resident of Heaven is not just omnipotent and omnipresent, He is also the only existing infallible person, anywhere. Since God is omnipresent, there is nothing, good or evil, that escapes His notice. Since He is omnipotent there is nothing that has or will ever happen that He has not allowed and since He is infallible, everything He does is perfect and there lies the Bible, the Word of God.

God promised to maintain His recorded Word and that, no matter what translation you choose, save the JW's New World Translation, is trust worthy. I and a quite a few Christians hold the Bible as the Final Court of Arbitration in all matters until, the soon coming of th Author.

I say all of this and I give you the Nave's study on the matter;
Kingdom of heaven

• Compared
  • To a man who sowed good seed
    Matthew 13:24-30 Matthew 13:38-43 ; Mark 4:26-29
  • To a granule of mustard seed
    Matthew 13:31 Matthew 13:32 ; Mark 4:30 Mark 4:31 ; Luke 13:18 Luke 13:19
  • To leaven (yeast)
    Matthew 13:33 ; Luke 13:21
  • To a treasure
    Matthew 13:44
  • To a pearl
    Matthew 13:45
  • To a net
    Matthew 13:47-50
  • To a king who called his servants for a reckoning (an audit)
    Matthew 18:23-35
  • To a householder
    Matthew 20:1-16
  • To a king who made a marriage feast for his son
    Matthew 22:2-14 ; Luke 14:16-24
  • To ten virgins
    Matthew 25:1-13
  • To a man, traveling into a far country, who called his servants, and delivered to them his goods
    Matthew 25:14-30 ; Luke 19:12-27
• "My kingdom is not of this world,"
  John 18:36
• Children of the
  Matthew 18:3 ; 19:14 ; Mark 10:14 ; Luke 18:16
• Rich people cannot enter
  Matthew 19:23 Matthew 19:24 ; Mark 10:23-25 ; Luke 18:24 Luke 18:25 Luke 18:29 Luke 18:30
• Keys of
  Matthew 16:19
• Good news of
  Luke 8:1
• Mysteries of
  Luke 8:10
• Does not consist of meat and drink
  Romans 14:17

God bless my brother.

 

[Edward]

1) There are only 3 people as per Bible who had seen heaven while on earth. Stephen, Paul and John. Stephen - First martyr recorded in Bible. Paul - Received the Gospel directly from heaven and wrote almost two-third of NT. John - Received Revelation and penned it down. Every person who had seen heaven has something big behind them! But these days we hear small kids going to heaven. How do you see it?

2) Most of the modern day preachers claim easily that they were taken up to heaven. Do we believe them?

I have watched a lot of videos on YouTube about people being caught up in the Spirit and being taken to Heaven. Sometimes the Holy Spirit pings my spirit to let me know that what I am watching is the truth, and sometimes not. So in short, yes, I think this sort of thing is happening right now in the world. I think many people keep it quiet, either because of being told to, or out of a fear of being ridiculed for it. Others are obviously frauds.

One man that I have been repeatedly pinged as truthful is named Bruce Allen. He has a 9 part series on this called walking in the glory on YouTube. Do a search for it and watch it. It's very good.

 

[Eugene]

The heavenly visit?

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

 

[Edward]

I can barely just get my head around what 'heaven' is. A 3rd heaven is just too advanced for me.

Consider this:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the
first heaven
and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea./(KJV)

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen yearsago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body,I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one
caught up to the third heaven
.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)/(KJV)

If there is a first heaven and a third heaven, it stands to reason that there is a second heaven. I heard it explained like this once.

First heaven is a spiritual condition.
Second heaven is a spiritual condition.
Third heaven is ‘heaven’ the place where the LORD & the angels dwell.

Think of it like the temple in Jerusalem. The outer court is the heaven that we enter into when we are saved (first heaven.)
Second heaven is like the Holy place, and is, in my opinion is also a spiritual condition; It is when we no longer willfully sin; things of the world or of the flesh no longer interest us. In second heaven is where we become spiritually pure, which one has to be before they can enter third heaven.
The Third Heaven would be like the Holy of Holies. This is where God and the Angels dwell, and where we will be one day.

Clear as mud?

 

[TOG]

Clear as mud.

...and there was no more sea.

This is the most scariest part of any scripture. How am i going to go fishing with no ocean?

Don't be too scared. The sea is symbolic of evil. You'll still be able to go fishing.

The TOG​

 

[Chopper]

Cheers for the late reply. Now i have to go in the smelly rubbish and try find my fishing rods again. Dont play with my feelings and emotions like that.

 

[JCitoL]

the "third heaven" is the so-called "Holy City" of the true Saints - it is the Ministry of the true Saints in the Heaven, because there are three places in the true Lord God:

- this world which the true God created as a paradise

- the high paradise shown in Revelation 21:1 which is above this world
and
- the ministry of the true Saints shown in Revelation 20:9 which is over the high paradise

the paradise and the ministry are something like the country and its parliament (building)

Blessings

 

[Randy]

I am one who believes Paul was speaking of another - I knew a man in Christ who was caught up to the 3rd heaven....

Because Paul didn't know whether that person was in the body or in the spirit - and stated he wouldn't brag about himself but could brag about a man like that I don't believe Paul was speaking of himself nor do I believe Paul spoke to that man prior to his letter that is Paul learned of that news from another.

Now to me God doesn't give "joy rides" without reason. That is if one was caught up to where God dwells they would be bringing back a message for the church. Two - Paul believed the story so that suggests to me a christian who was held in high esteem by all. (trustworthy source) -like another Apostle.

Thats all I see as no name was given - Of course I wonder if Paul could ever conceive that christians would still be reading and discussing one of his letters in a distant future from the time he wrote the letter. More than 1900 years later. If so maybe Paul would have given more detail (smile)

Randy

 

[Chopper]

I am one who believes Paul was speaking of another - I knew a man in Christ who was caught up to the 3rd heaven....

Because Paul didn't know whether that person was in the body or in the spirit - and stated he wouldn't brag about himself but could brag about a man like that I don't believe Paul was speaking of himself nor do I believe Paul spoke to that man prior to his letter that is Paul learned of that news from another.

Now to me God doesn't give "joy rides" without reason. That is if one was caught up to where God dwells they would be bringing back a message for the church. Two - Paul believed the story so that suggests to me a christian who was held in high esteem by all. (trustworthy source) -like another Apostle.

Thats all I see as no name was given - Of course I wonder if Paul could ever conceive that christians would still be reading and discussing one of his letters in a distant future from the time he wrote the letter. More than 1900 years later. If so maybe Paul would have given more detail (smile)

Randy

Well Randy, that's a version that I've never heard before. You certainly are welcome to your personal views even if they are not what Christ's Church has accepted as a very reliable belief. I can see how you could come to that view except that the results of Paul's thorn was due to his heavenly visit.

 

[Randy]

Well Randy, that's a version that I've never heard before. You certainly are welcome to your personal views even if they are not what Christ's Church has accepted as a very reliable belief. I can see how you could come to that view except that the results of Paul's thorn was due to his heavenly visit.

I don't believe scripture states that was Paul's thorn in his flesh. So if your premise is a guess?

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

I think scripture says that the thorn was to humble Paul due to the great revelations given him. I can see how being in a third heaven to receive them could also cause boasting, but I believe it was simply stated to be due to the great revelations.

 

[Edward]

I think scripture says that the thorn was to humble Paul due to the great revelations given him. I can see how being in a third heaven to receive them could also cause boasting, but I believe it was simply stated to be due to the great revelations.

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. That may be the exact reason that many are not given great revelations or trips to the third heaven. Not humble enough and would go around boasting. Yet Paul was chosen and had a job to do (Preach unto the gentiles) so the Lord dealt with the situation to keep Paul humble. This makes sense.

 

[for_his_glory]

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach that when they were seen (not Enoch) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God and Jesus as 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 says we who have died are only asleep unto the coming of the Lord in the clouds and those who are asleep before us who are still alive will be taken up first and we who are alive will meet them in the clouds.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
(Does not say where God took him)

Heb 11:5 by faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

Deu 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him! How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, comets, moons and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem. It is the heaven where Paul and John were caught up to in vision (2 Cor.12: l-4; Rev.4: l-2).

 

[Kathi]

I believe the reference to the third heaven is the three different "realms" the sky,outer space and the spiritual heaven.Their are not actually three levels in heaven.Although the Mormons teach that and it is not Biblical.Although their are different levels of reward in heaven.

 

[farouk]

I believe the reference to the third heaven is the three different "realms" the sky,outer space and the spiritual heaven.Their are not actually three levels in heaven.Although the Mormons teach that and it is not Biblical.Although their are different levels of reward in heaven.

It's interesting also that Paul to the Ephesians in the first chapter of his Epistle says that believers are 'seated in heavenly places in Chist Jesus'.

Blessings.

 

[Kathi]

Yes,I would have to do some research on that.That would be an interesting topic to start unless someone has already done that.You were speaking of Jesus's anyday return.Are you post or pre-trib?

 

[farouk]

Yes,I would have to do some research on that.That would be an interesting topic to start unless someone has already done that.You were speaking of Jesus's anyday return.Are you post or pre-trib?

Actually, Ms Kathi, before you arrived on this forum I happened to have posted over and over on this subject. Suffice it to say I don't see from Scripture what must happen before 1 Thess. 4 account of the Lord Jesus' coming for His church occurs. (Here I think the mods might want us to go to a more directly eschatological thread! )

Blessings.