Peace in Christ - War Without

[Jared Livesey]

Definitions:
* Property is any resource monopolized by force or threats thereto.
* The owner of a property is the person or group which credibly threatens or actually executes the greatest force with respect to that resource.
* Claiming property is the act of issuing a threat or executing force in a bid to monopolize a resource and thus become its owner.
Note: unclaimed resources are not property under this definition.

It is to be noted that in claiming a resource as property, a would-be owner is necessarily making a bid to control the behavior of all others with respect to the resource, and need not make any change to the claimed property at all, or even to have seen it. Thus it is not resources, but people which are necessarily being forcibly controlled by property claims.

The foundation of our social order is property, as defined above. That is to say our social order is founded upon naught but force and threats with respect to the resources of the Earth.

What we are now seeing is a cold war – a war waged by words to polarize people into teams, currently forming along racial lines, and to make one’s enemies seem evil and therefore deserving of the fate one wishes them to suffer. This is being done in preparation for a hot war – a war waged by the sword to eliminate competitors and change ownership of the resources of the Earth. And since owners monopolize resources through force or threat thereof, those would-be owners who threaten or execute force against the current owners are playing the same game as the owners, with the same goal: to monopolize resources through force and threats for their own pleasure and gain.

Jesus is real, and He is the Christ, the Son of God, and has all power in heaven and on Earth. He offers us the sole alternative to rule by threats and force and will protect those who will believe His words and do what He says. See Luke 6:20-49, and Matthew chapters 5 through 7, inclusive, for what He has taught all humanity to do. Those who wish to survive the coming maelstrom would be well advised to execute His words as they are written, and appeal in mighty prayer to Him to shield them from the storm.

 

[Who Me]

definition:- mass noun A thing or things belonging to someone; possessions collectively. or An attribute, quality, or characteristic of something.

Please note God asigned property, land to be held by people for ever.
He also requires people to be responcible in how they use the resources he has given them to support themselves and to help those in need.

We have two real concens.
That of promoting justice and that of evangelising.
Politics is useful in enabling us to do the above.

We are called to live for Jesus, not to seek to escape life.

 

[Jared Livesey]

And what has Jesus asked us to do with what we call "our property"?

Our Lord commands:

Give to every one that asks (Luke 6:30; Matthew 5:42).

Lend to all comers (Luke 6:35; Matthew 5:42).

If anyone takes your stuff, do not tell them they cannot take more (Luke 6:29).

Do not ask for your stuff back from anyone who takes it (Luke 6:30), which includes what you lend out.

If anyone sues you, let them have what they are suing you for without a fight (Matthew 5:40).

Do not store for yourself anything that can be corrupted or that can be stolen in this world, but instead give it to the poor (Matthew 6:19-21), which is how you build up for yourself treasure in heaven (Luke 18:22; Matthew 19:21; Mark 10:21).

Do not store for yourself anything that can be corrupted or that can be stolen in this world, but instead give it to the poor (Matthew 6:19-21), which is how you build up for yourself treasure in heaven (Luke 18:22; Matthew 19:21; Mark 10:21).

And so on, as can be seen in the Gospels. In particular, Luke 6:20-49; Matthew 5-7, inclusive.

If we love the Lord Jesus Christ, we will do as He commands (John 14:15; John 14:21; John 14:23).

 

[WIP]

And what has Jesus asked us to do with what we call "our property"?

Our Lord commands:

Give to every one that asks (Luke 6:30; Matthew 5:42).

Lend to all comers (Luke 6:35; Matthew 5:42).

If anyone takes your stuff, do not tell them they cannot take more (Luke 6:29).

Do not ask for your stuff back from anyone who takes it (Luke 6:30), which includes what you lend out.

If anyone sues you, let them have what they are suing you for without a fight (Matthew 5:40).

Do not store for yourself anything that can be corrupted or that can be stolen in this world, but instead give it to the poor (Matthew 6:19-21), which is how you build up for yourself treasure in heaven (Luke 18:22; Matthew 19:21; Mark 10:21).

Do not store for yourself anything that can be corrupted or that can be stolen in this world, but instead give it to the poor (Matthew 6:19-21), which is how you build up for yourself treasure in heaven (Luke 18:22; Matthew 19:21; Mark 10:21).

And so on, as can be seen in the Gospels. In particular, Luke 6:20-49; Matthew 5-7, inclusive.

If we love the Lord Jesus Christ, we will do as He commands (John 14:15; John 14:21; John 14:23).

I can send you my address as I would ask that you clear out your bank accounts and send it to me and if you own a home or car please transfer the titles to me as well.

Okay, I'm being a little facetious but I wonder how much easier it is to say than do.

 

[Jared Livesey]

I can send you my address as I would ask that you clear out your bank accounts and send it to me and if you own a home or car please transfer the titles to me as well.

Okay, I'm being a little facetious but I wonder how much easier it is to say than do.

My bank account balance is zero.
I am giving to the Lord that which He has asked of me directly, which is that I keep my job, and my job requires a vehicle, so you don't get the car.
I don't own a home.

As for how easy it is to do, try it. Put the Lord's word to the test by doing it as it is written, and see if He doesn't bless you in ways you would not have otherwise been able to conceive of.

 

[WIP]

My bank account balance is zero.
I am giving to the Lord that which He has asked of me directly, which is that I keep my job, and my job requires a vehicle, so you don't get the car.
I don't own a home.

As for how easy it is to do, try it. Put the Lord's word to the test by doing it as it is written, and see if He doesn't bless you in ways you would not have otherwise been able to conceive of.

Already, you have denied me your car. You say you have a job so how about sending me your next paycheck?

I'm not trying to get under your skin. I'm trying to show how sharing as Scripture says and doing are entirely different things.

What are your thoughts regarding enabling wrong behavior? For example, I certainly don't need your paycheck, car, or whatever. Did Jesus mean that we should give to someone that is not really in need or is there Scripture that teaches about this?

 

[Jared Livesey]

Already, you have denied me your car. You say you have a job so how about sending me your next paycheck?

It is already required of me by my creditors. You are asking for things you do not need from someone who has nothing to give.

What are your thoughts regarding enabling wrong behavior? For example, I certainly don't need your paycheck, car, or whatever. Did Jesus mean that we should give to someone that is not really in need or is there Scripture that teaches about this?

God already enables wrong behavior by granting to each their lives and power to move and do according to their own desires, whether they want to sin or to do good. God enabled Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of the forbidden tree, even though He forbade them from doing so. God enabled Pilate to crucify Jesus (John 19:11). And He knew that they, and every other sinner, were going to do those things, and empowered them to do it anyways. And if we are to be like Him, we give, if we have, without judging the one who makes the request, and without putting conditions on its use - for this is how we learn grace: the ability to give a good gift, which is any gift given without judgement, resentment, begrudging, or reciprocity.

Luke 6:27-38
27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thycoat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

 

[WIP]

It is already required of me by my creditors. You are asking for things you do not need from someone who has nothing to give.



God already enables wrong behavior by granting to each their lives and power to move and do according to their own desires, whether they want to sin or to do good. God enabled Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of the forbidden tree, even though He forbade them from doing so. God enabled Pilate to crucify Jesus (John 19:11). And He knew that they, and every other sinner, were going to do those things, and empowered them to do it anyways. And if we are to be like Him, we give, if we have, without judging the one who makes the request, and without putting conditions on its use - for this is how we learn grace: the ability to give a good gift, which is any gift given without judgement, resentment, begrudging, or reciprocity.

You misunderstand my use of "enabling." Either that or you are intentionally arguing with me. What I'm referring to is when someone does something to encourage wrong or inappropriate behavior. Going the extra mile in love in order to help someone in need is an entirely different thing than to feed their wants.

A good example, would be for you to give me the things I asked for when I don't really need them. To do so would be just feeding or enabling or encouraging my greed. Do you think that is what Jesus is saying we should do?

 

[john darling]

Did Jesus mean that we should give to someone that is not really in need or is there Scripture that teaches about this?

Hi WIP. Good question. I would suggest that this instruction is more so for the benefit of the one who does the giving as opposed to the one who receives.

If the love of money really is the root of all evil, then any issue relating to materialism and possession will be extremely important in terms of spiritual development.

It's easy to come up with excuses for why we can't (or maybe shouldn't) help others. For example, when it comes to giving to the poor, many people these days argue that they do not give because the poor would only waste what is given to them. There is some truth to that, but this should not become a convenient doctrine to justify not giving; rather it should encourage us to change how or what we give.

Which leads to the other issue of exercising wisdom in how we give. The instruction is to give to those who ask; not give to those who demand. And, the instruction does not say we must give them exactly what they ask for; we still have control over what we give. For example, a homeless guy on the street asks for money. We could give him cash, or we could ask why he wants the cash. If he says food, then we could buy food for him.

 

[WIP]

It's easy to come up with excuses for why we can't (or maybe shouldn't) help others. For example, when it comes to giving to the poor, many people these days argue that they do not give because the poor would only waste what is given to them. There is some truth to that, but this should not become a convenient doctrine to justify not giving; rather it should encourage us to change how or what we give.

I agree with you here. My wife once hit me with this. We were going to a local place and on the way there, there was a couple on one corner asking for money for food. While we were driving out, I thought to myself that if that couple was still there and opportunity presented itself (they were near a stop sign) then I would give them half of what I had in my wallet. I had $40.00 because we had stopped at an ATM earlier. I figured I'd give half because I obtained the money for a specific purpose to begin with.

When I gave them the money my wife said exactly as you stated above. That they might be professional beggars or they might use the money for drugs or something. I told her that we don't know that and so we have to trust that they will use it as needed.

The thing is with what I've been talking about is when we do know that we would be feeding greed or enabling negative results, is it prudent to avoid doing so? Are we also required to use a certain amount of reasonable management of what we have been given by God?

 

[john darling]

The thing is with what I've been talking about is when we do know that we would be feeding greed or enabling negative results, is it prudent to avoid doing so? Are we also required to use a certain amount of reasonable management of what we have been given by God?

When it comes to giving, it's helpful to keep in mind that there are a lot of needs in the world. We can't help everyone so it becomes necessary to ask ourselves, "who is in the most need".

People in western countries like America, Australia, and the UK are rarely in the most need. Especially in America there are a host of resources available for those in need. I've been deliberately homeless before on several different occasions in several locations in all 3 of these countries so I know from personal experience. Soup kitchens, Church programs, and other volunteer organizations make it relatively easy to find 3 meals a day.

However, countries like India and Kenya (and especially in Kenya) do not have the same kind of security nets for the poor. If you want the most value for your charity dollar, you will find it outside wealthy countries like the U.S., U.K., and Oz.

But, therein you find another problem. Many charity organizations (including most churches) themselves are just another business venture with huge overhead costs (salary, luxury vehicles, accommodation in predominantly wealthy areas, promotional materials for the business, etc) so that very little of the charity dollar reaches the people in most need.

The "war on poverty" has been going on for a long time which shows that lack of money isn't the real problem; rather the problem is finding people who will use the money in the most responsible way possible. That means they need to have a genuine desire to help the poor rather than to just be an emissary of whatever group they're promoting.

I've spent time with missionaries from a lot of groups in Kenya and almost all of them bought luxury vehicles, rented houses in luxury areas far from the poor, eat at luxury restaurants, and take vacation time at luxury resorts.

The best way to ensure that you're getting maximum value for your dollar to the people who need it most is to do the job yourself, which is consistent with what Jesus taught, too.

 

[Jared Livesey]

You misunderstand my use of "enabling." Either that or you are intentionally arguing with me. What I'm referring to is when someone does something to encourage wrong or inappropriate behavior. Going the extra mile in love in order to help someone in need is an entirely different thing than to feed their wants.

A good example, would be for you to give me the things I asked for when I don't really need them. To do so would be just feeding or enabling or encouraging my greed. Do you think that is what Jesus is saying we should do?

This is what Jesus is saying we should do:
1. If anyone forces you to go with him a mile, go with him two miles (Matthew 5:41).
2. Give to every one that asks (Luke 6:30; Matthew 5:42).

He adds:

3. Judge not, and you will not be judged. Condemn not, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)
4. Give, and it will be given to you, with overflowing abundance shall they bring it to you and set it in your lap. The same standard of judgement you apply to others when you decide what, or even whether, you will give to them shall be the same standard applied to you. (Luke 6:38)

 

[Christ_empowered]

this is a difficult one. because until recently I was regarded as "society's reject" (i was actually called that, in a Dunkin Donuts, upon returning home...), I'm not gung ho about unfettered, unregulated capitalism. -any- worldly economic system creates both winners and losers. what I think is somewhat unusual about American-style capitalism is that society as a whole tends to heap condemnation upon the poor, the working class, even the middle-middle class (trust me, I know; I was also labeled a "rinky dink middle class loser" for a while there...), and then the upper middle and upper classes are perceived as more virtuous, somehow...morally superior, made of finer material, than the unwashed masses. and yet...

capitalism, flaws and all, has helped lift a lot of humanity out of stagnation and poverty. im not Mr.Corporate America (LOL), but the rise of WalMart, etc. has also had definite benefits...fair pricing, more access to good things and basic necessities, and...

rambling. I guess I Just mention all this to say that my -own- position- is that Jesus neither advocated communes nor "the invisible hand" of the market. And yet...

looking over history, Christians have lived in and experimented with both extremes, and just about anything and everything in between. In Acts, one sees communal living and gracious giving...but the giving is -voluntary-, not by gov't decree, and the communal living happened in that time, in that place that God ordained...

and that time is (sadly, to me) long gone. :-(

I once thought (assumed?) that things were "better" in Western Europe and the UK, where there were (and are...) far more social programs and worker protections. Thing is...

these are a) attempts at taming the excesses of capitalism, not threats to capitalism itself and b) subject to change (right now, the UK is big on "austerity measures," which has resulted in more poverty and more people homeless and in prison....), and even when the gov't gets involved with the best of intentions, the absolutely most brilliant experts...

expect the unexpected ("the law of unintended consequences"). I have a friendly acquaintance who now lives in the UK with her husband. She's from this area, he was educated in this area but hails from India originally. OK. So, now, they have a young child, a house, etc...

and -everything- is more expen$ive there, and she tells me that it can be frustrating, at times, from her position in society (well educated, white collar, somewhat upwardly mobile, but not at all rich...) to deal with, especially since she is from the US south originally. and then...

there's me. I have 'severe mental illness.' i receive disability, for which i am extremely grateful. my parents are at the tail end of their professional journey, and they're now well-to-do. so...im (very) poor, but well taken care of by high(er) status family. what do I Make of it?

Scripture instructs believers to save up for the next generation and to provide care for those in the family who are unable to care for themselves. So...my parents are quite godly in that respect. I live in a small, nice place they own. what if...

we were magically (LOL) transported to, say, The Netherlands, where the "progressive taxation" would mean my parents would not have the resources to care for me...

but the gov't would, thru programs and subsidies, possibly extended stints in (progressive, I imagine) mental hospitals, etc. what would my life be like, then?

i don't know. i really don't. everywhere one goes, there's stratification, a pecking order...and those at the bottom (which includes -me-, ugh) often have a rough go of things...

but what to -do- about it? As Christians, are we to invest and use the capitalist system to improve our own standing, help those whom we can, and pray for and wring our hands over the "society's rejects" we see, all over the place?

should the government tax the rich, perhaps super tax the extremely rich, to provide more for the masses? what is gained? what is lost? which way is morally superior?

ok. if you made it this far...thanks.

 

[ezra]

its easy to say things but doing them is tough.. i dont think the Lord ask us to give all our money up. but give from the heart .friday on the way home i listened to a preacher on healing. he told of his sister n law 35 years ago healed from cancer by confessing the scriptures .he then ended invite me to your church i can teach on this. i guarantee there will be healing take place.. not sure i by this his guarantee

 

[Christ_empowered]

i think its also worth noting that Jesus loved the poor, loved but often rebuked the rich...

and my take on it is that he was trying to get those who have more, those who have a whole lot...to give to those who have less, who might have nothing at all...

and to do it voluntarily, etc., because God loves a cheerful giver.

my thoughts. I kinda sorta rambled in mah 1st reply, LOL.

 

[WIP]

When it comes to giving, it's helpful to keep in mind that there are a lot of needs in the world. We can't help everyone so it becomes necessary to ask ourselves, "who is in the most need".

People in western countries like America, Australia, and the UK are rarely in the most need. Especially in America there are a host of resources available for those in need. I've been deliberately homeless before on several different occasions in several locations in all 3 of these countries so I know from personal experience. Soup kitchens, Church programs, and other volunteer organizations make it relatively easy to find 3 meals a day.

However, countries like India and Kenya (and especially in Kenya) do not have the same kind of security nets for the poor. If you want the most value for your charity dollar, you will find it outside wealthy countries like the U.S., U.K., and Oz.

But, therein you find another problem. Many charity organizations (including most churches) themselves are just another business venture with huge overhead costs (salary, luxury vehicles, accommodation in predominantly wealthy areas, promotional materials for the business, etc) so that very little of the charity dollar reaches the people in most need.

The "war on poverty" has been going on for a long time which shows that lack of money isn't the real problem; rather the problem is finding people who will use the money in the most responsible way possible. That means they need to have a genuine desire to help the poor rather than to just be an emissary of whatever group they're promoting.

I've spent time with missionaries from a lot of groups in Kenya and almost all of them bought luxury vehicles, rented houses in luxury areas far from the poor, eat at luxury restaurants, and take vacation time at luxury resorts.

The best way to ensure that you're getting maximum value for your dollar to the people who need it most is to do the job yourself, which is consistent with what Jesus taught, too.

The problem is, we can bog ourselves down with determining who is in the "most" need. My once told me that no matter how good, strong, smart, or whatever I think I am, there is always going to be someone better, stronger, smarter, and so on.

Likewise, when I find that one person that I think is in most need, there will always be someone who is in a more precarious position.

We are to give when others are in need. I do not doubt this. What I am speaking about is when we know the person we are giving to does not need it, is it still God's will that we give to them and feed their greed?

Here's an example of what I am talking about to hopefully help clarify my question. The household middle income salary range in the United States for a family of three (typical family size) is between $45,000.00 - $135,000.00 (2016 data). My family income at that time was right around $75,000.00 or at about the 33% mark of this range. We were not in need of anything. We had a home to live in (paid for), nice vehicles to get around as needed, adequate clothing, food on the table, and expendable income.

If you knew my financial situation, would it be appropriate to give me more just because I was asking or is it Christianly responsible to say no?

 

[Who Me]

If you knew my financial situation, would it be appropriate to give me more just because I was asking or is it Christianly responsible to say no?

We are to be wise in the way we use the resources that God has given us.
Are there organisations in your town/area that help the homeless, run foodbanks, visit the lonely etc.
If there are than we should support them in as many ways as we can.
Donating cash, goods, time, skills, promoting them and praying intelligently for them.

The same applies to missionary organisations and international charities.
Check out how they use the resources they have and how accountable they are to the local church and to the funding churches.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think Who Me is correct. As much as I once loved the idea of socialism, or at least extensive social programs...

Jesus saves -individuals- , who then go on to do the good works He has planned for us...Ephesians 2:10 applies here, I think.

Jesus saves people in impoverished nations attempting socialism. He saves the riff raff, lost souls of cut throat US capitalism. He saves the sinners in secularized, progressive nations with extensive social programs and such.

If I remember correctly, there are ways to check out how well a non-profit uses their resources. Online, one can find sites that rank non-profits in terms of efficiency and productivity, based on their records. On an individual, organization-by-organization basis, one can often request some of their IRS records and give them a look over. To me, that's really time consuming...but I suppose if one wanted to put significant $$$ into a non-profit, that would be a worthwhile use of time and energy.

I think what bothers me about the current state of affairs is that inequality is growing internationally. The US is ridiculous in this regard, but the growing gap between the relatively few Haves (and Have ridiculous amounts) and the have nots (and have less than nothings) is a -global- phenomenom. Charities, churches, etc. are -wonderful- , but this is a massive, global issue. As a Christian, I hope+pray something happens to make life better for people, overall. not necessarily socialism, but...a "post-capitalism" approach, I suppose.

 

[WIP]

We are to be wise in the way we use the resources that God has given us.
Are there organisations in your town/area that help the homeless, run foodbanks, visit the lonely etc.
If there are than we should support them in as many ways as we can.
Donating cash, goods, time, skills, promoting them and praying intelligently for them.

The same applies to missionary organisations and international charities.
Check out how they use the resources they have and how accountable they are to the local church and to the funding churches.

Is there someplace in Scripture where God instructs us in this way?

 

[Christ_empowered]

James 1:27. 2 Corinthians 9:7. Luke 21:1-4. Luke 12:21. 1 Corinthians 4:2.