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Penal Substitutionary Atonement

st-worm2,
Please comment on post 5 and why you disagree interpreting those same passages. When asked to do that, I couldn't because it's true.

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father'? Jn.14:9 NKJV
 
When the Bible speaks of Christ dying for our sins, it means if God had not endured wrongdoing against himself, if he didn't tolerate sinful behavior against himself, sinners would be condemned.
So, He chose to die for us, yes? (or I suppose you could say, laid His life down by ALLOWING Himself to be crucified, so that we could be saved). As I'm sure you'd agree, no one could have killed Him without His consent to do so.

Jesus voluntarily chose not to condemn people who did things to him that the law would have executed them for.
He asked His Father to forgive those who killed Him for not knowing better/not knowing what they should have known about Him and who He was, not for what they did to Him. Is it not also interesting that the very One who always forgave people's sins Himself, asked His Father to do so in this particular case (rather than simply continuing to do so Himself).

I wonder why 🤔


--David
 
st-worm2,
Please comment on post 5 and why you disagree interpreting those same passages. When asked to do that, I couldn't because it's true.

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father'? Jn.14:9 NKJV
Hello again Journeyman, I will do so (Dv), but it will probably be tomorrow evening before I can.

God bless you!!

--David
 
Greetings again David (st_worm2),
The reason that I thought you may be Mormon came from something that you said in post #6, which was:
I believe that Jesus is a human, a descendant of Adam through Mary and he inherited our sin prone nature.
Yes, Jesus as a human had the same nature as us humans.
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

God the Father was the father of Jesus by means of His Power, the Holy Spirit:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I hope that clears things up a bit (?)
I reject nearly EVERY Mormon teaching.
MANY have a great understanding of the Bible, have memorized it and meditate upon it, moment by moment, but ALL are sinners in need of a Divine Savior nevertheless. Why, in your estimation, was Jesus the only one among us to be unaffected (if His nature was just as fallen as ours are) 🤔
Jesus was specially conceived and prepared to accomplish the work of salvation.
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Isaiah 49:1–6 (KJV): 1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 50:4–9 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.


Kind regards
Trevor
 
So, He chose to die for us, yes? (or I suppose you could say, laid His life down by ALLOWING Himself to be crucified, so that we could be saved). As I'm sure you'd agree, no one could have killed Him without His consent to do so.
Yes, he said,

Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Mt.26:53-54

He proved his superiority over all opposition powers, demonic and human,

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Lk.24:25

He asked His Father to forgive those who killed Him for not knowing better/not knowing what they should have known about Him and who He was, not for what they did to Him.
They did it to him because they didn't know him.

All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot outthe lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Psa.22:8-7

Sound familiar? There's a very goid reason for that.

He quoted Psa.22:1 (My God why have you forsaken me?) because those who mocked him, the scribes and Pharisees, the "experts" should have known better.

Orthodox Judaism understood the unjust suffering suffering of their people.

Pharisees understood Psa.22 when the "strong bulls of Bashan" persecuted their people.

Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

Scribes knew the dogs ripped their people apart.

Deliver me from.....the dog. Isa.22:20

They didn't know they were the dogs.

And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. Lk.23:35

All Jews understood through. the suffering of their own oeople that Psa.22 is a hallmark of hope.

Jews like David who went through bad times felt forsaken, but never was. And Psa.22 specifically says God will not firsake the righteous and so does the scrioture.

And here's the kicker. Rabbinic Judaism has always taught that when Messiah comes, he will exactt justice on sinners.

So when they said C'mon down, what they meant was. If we're committing sin judge us now. Prove yourself.

I think they were sinning against God himself. What do you think?
Is it not also interesting that the very One who always forgave people's sins Himself, asked His Father to do so in this particular case (rather than simply continuing to do so Himself).

I wonder why 🤔


--David
Yes it is interesting and Itwo Rock solid reasons why.

1) Jesus is our High Priest, who doesn't have to visit the throne of God once a year because He's sitting on it and always has been, except when he came down as a Witness first hand to our evil.

2) God has been angry without pronouncing judgment on us. Whenever we see Jesus converseing with his Father it's to show his Oneness, not any difference. Here's an example,

I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it.
If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’ ” Lk.13:7-9 NIV

We ourselves can be angry without acting.
So let JW's know He's not schizophrenic. He's God.
 
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Greetings Hopeful 2,
What is the difference between "substitute" and "representative" ? Both act on the behalf of another.
There could be some overlapping of meaning of these two words in some contexts, but in their normal usage the two words describe two views which are almost diametrically opposed when speaking about the Atonement. Where the substitution concept fails is that if Jesus suffered and died on our behalf as a substitute, why then do the faithful still suffer and die? Were the sufferings that Job experienced as a result of the wrath of God upon Job?

I quoted from the original article:
The following is the introduction:
"In order for our sin to be dealt with, someone must face the penalty our sin deserves."
I reject this concept.
How does the above statement fit the sufferings of Job? Why was he "penalised"? Whose sin was Job suffering for? His own sins, or on behalf as a substitute for someone else?

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I agree it's a strong accusation. God says in that chapter no father or son in Israel will be put to death for another mans sins and that statement is immutable because he swore that by himself. Jesus was a son of Israel.
Whose sins was a man to die for then?
 
Whose sins was a man to die for then?
Those who murdered him and apparently me, you and the the rest of thise who know good from evil,

But I say unto you,That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother,Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. Mt .5:32

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law,They hated me without a cause. Psa.35:19, Jn15:25

And thinkest thouth is, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Rom.2:3

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jn.1:8

But the things is, if Gid made that oath it cannot be changed not even for Jesus. Especially not our Lord because,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

He repeated this in Eze.18 and nobody here will look at it.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isa.1:18

Sinners may not believe this, but they can understand it. TULIP? Not in a million years.
 
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Those who murdered him and apparently me, you and the the rest of thise who know goid from evil,

But I say unto you,That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: andwhosoever shall say to his brother,Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say,Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. Mt .5:32

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law,They hated me without a cause. Psa.35:19, Jn15:25

And thinkest thouth is, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Rom.2:3

If we say that wehave no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jn.1:8

But the things is, if Gid made that oath it cannot be changed not even for Jesus. Especially not our Lord because,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to deathfor his own sin. Deu.24:16

He repeated this in Eze.18 and nobody here will look at it.
Right, “every man shall be out to death for his own sin.” So, what is the main problem with humans that we see from Gen 3 to Revelation?
 
Right, “every man shall be out to death for his own sin.” So, what is the main problem with humans that we see from Gen 3 to Revelation?
The problem is when gentiles glooded the church questions arose sbout whether they needed to be circumcised and Apostles said no. So this heresy got started that grace nullifies obedience,

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. Rom.3:7-8
 
The problem is when gentiles glooded the church questions arose sbout whether they needed to be circumcised and Apostles said no. So this heresy got started that grace nullifies obedience,

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. Rom.3:7-8
How does that answer my question? Again, what is the main problem with humans that we see from Gen 3 to Revelation?
 
The problem is many refused to humble themselves.
When did that start, what was the result, and what is it called?

Now can you give me yior interpretation of the scripture in the post I asked?
I’m trying to get there. As with all deep and central doctrines, there is far more than just one verse that has to be taken into account and none should be taken in isolation. I hope you agree with that.
 
Greetings Hopeful 2,

There could be some overlapping of meaning of these two words in some contexts, but in their normal usage the two words describe two views which are almost diametrically opposed when speaking about the Atonement. Where the substitution concept fails is that if Jesus suffered and died on our behalf as a substitute, why then do the faithful still suffer and die? Were the sufferings that Job experienced as a result of the wrath of God upon Job?
The death in question is the second death.
Without Christ's intercession all would die a second time.
I quoted from the original article:
How does the above statement fit the sufferings of Job? Why was he "penalised"? Whose sin was Job suffering for? His own sins, or on behalf as a substitute for someone else?
He suffered to bring glory to God: not for himself or for any others.
Kind regards
Trevor
 
Free,
I would like to ask again that when your line of questioning is finished, you would respond to the posts I mentioned.
I would like to say I know exactly where this is going. I want you to know that I have had this type of conversation before on this site and not once was the scripture I cited explained by the person disagreeing with me. I don't mean this as a slur in any way. I didn't see it for thirty years. I sat in church and didn't really question why. I was told why. This is what happened to me

Free:
When did that start,
It began when Adam and Eve discovered not listening to God caused shame...then fear and other thoughts they never had.
Free:
what was the result
They got booted and were subjected to what heaven was like when you know who went off the rails. But...they could return...not to the earthly one...but the one you know who fell from.
Free:
and what is it called?
Mercy...and then some.
 
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